Is LeBron James the all round G.O.A.T

[gouki88]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

I see it a bit differently. Imo, there are 2 types of players:

1. score-first players (MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Dream)
2. pass-first players (Magic, Bird, LeBron, Russell)

I don't think there's any way I would classify Bird as pass-first. He's the best passing forward of all time for my mind, but he was looking to score first

[Jvalin]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

I see it a bit differently. Imo, there are 2 types of players:

1. score-first players (MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Dream)
2. pass-first players (Magic, Bird, LeBron, Russell)

I don't think there's any way I would classify Bird as pass-first. He's the best passing forward of all time for my mind, but he was looking to score first

Well, his biggest rival throughout his career begs to disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWL8YOlfiwo
(the quote starts at 6:13)
 

(...) how we were taught to play the game both Larry and I and then the way we wanted to play the game as individuals and so we're mirrors of each other. I may smile a bit more, but the way we play the game of basketball was exactly the same because we would anything to win, we didn't care about scoring points, we cared about winning the game and making our teammates better. And that's why I think that, you know, we were able to change not only basketball but we were able to change the NBA too. (...)

That last sentence may sound a bit cocky, but imo it's 100% true.

[gouki88]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

I see it a bit differently. Imo, there are 2 types of players:

1. score-first players (MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Dream)
2. pass-first players (Magic, Bird, LeBron, Russell)

I don't think there's any way I would classify Bird as pass-first. He's the best passing forward of all time for my mind, but he was looking to score first

Well, his biggest rival throughout his career begs to disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWL8YOlfiwo
(the quote starts at 6:13)
 

(...) how we were taught to play the game both Larry and I and the way we wanted to play the game as individuals and so we're mirrors of each other. I may smile a bit more, but the way we play the game of basketball was exactly the same because we would anything to win, we didn't care about scoring points, we cared about winning the game and making our teammates better. And that's why I think that, you know, we were able to change not only basketball but we were able to change the NBA too. (...)

That last sentence may sound a bit cocky, but imo it's 100% true.

I think the bolded is true, but I think Bird rightfully thought the best way to do that was with him scoring, whereas Magic rightfully thought that was with him passing first. That's why there's a 6FGA difference between their career averages for shots per game

[Jvalin]

@ gooki88, RPGenerate, nickagneta

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing MJ for wanting to take the last shots. I was trying to refute Who's argument that LeBron should be less ball dominant.

The way I see it, all superstars who play on the perimeter are/were ball dominant players (to varying degrees). If they weren't ball dominant, they wouldn't have become superstars.

There are two sorta ideologies (main idealogies) that I identify among star players:

(1) I am the most talented player on this team. I am the one most able / best able to adapt my game to get most out of my teammates -- Bill Russell's mentality. To a lesser degree, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Pippen.

(2) I am the most talented player on this team. This team is best when I am at my best. By allowing / freeing me up to do what I do best and then finding the right pieces (role players) to put around me while I do those things -- this has become the dominant mindset since Michael Jordan and most star players of past 35 years fall into this category. Examples like MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq.



As a fan, I greatly prefer the first one and in LeBron's case I thought he was one of the best able stars to exemplify these qualities because of how astoundingly well rounded he was and is as a basketball player. Someone who can adapt his game to get the most out of everyone around him. Instead, he has gone the MJ / Shaq route which I believe has hurt his teams at times (especially in Miami) and cost him some rings.

I see it a bit differently. Imo, there are 2 types of players:

1. score-first players (MJ, Kobe, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Dream)
2. pass-first players (Magic, Bird, LeBron, Russell)

I don't think there's any way I would classify Bird as pass-first. He's the best passing forward of all time for my mind, but he was looking to score first

Well, his biggest rival throughout his career begs to disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWL8YOlfiwo
(the quote starts at 6:13)
 

(...) how we were taught to play the game both Larry and I and the way we wanted to play the game as individuals and so we're mirrors of each other. I may smile a bit more, but the way we play the game of basketball was exactly the same because we would anything to win, we didn't care about scoring points, we cared about winning the game and making our teammates better. And that's why I think that, you know, we were able to change not only basketball but we were able to change the NBA too. (...)

That last sentence may sound a bit cocky, but imo it's 100% true.

I think the bolded is true, but I think Bird rightfully thought the best way to do that was with him scoring, whereas Magic rightfully thought that was with him passing first. That's why there's a 6FGA difference between their career averages for shots per game

Sure, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't a pass-first player. You said it yourself, the bolded part is true. They were mirrors of each other. They didn't care about scoring points, they cared about winning the game and making their teammates better.

[nickagneta]

Having watched or listened to just about every Larry Bird game live, I would say, Larry was a "make the right play first" type of guy. If the right play was to pass, then he did that. If it was for him to shoot, he did that.

And, of course, Larry shooting was the right play an awful lot, but so was passing. The only wrong play was Larry not touching the ball at all.

[Stig]

I don't think there is such a thing as "all round goat", there's one goat: MJ, and everyone else, It all comes down to winning, in the modern NBA no one has won as much as MJ. You can have an all round skill set, but if it doesn't translate to win, it doesn't matter.

[Jvalin]

Having watched or listened to just about every Larry Bird game live, I would say, Larry was a "make the right play first" type of guy. If the right play was to pass, then he did that. If it was for him to shoot, he did that.

And, of course, Larry shooting was the right play an awful lot, but so was passing. The only wrong play was Larry not touching the ball at all.

I believe we are saying the same thing, only in a different way. Let me put it like this.

Pass-first mentality: If I have an open shot, I take it. If not, I search for the open man.
Score-first mentality: If I have an open shot, I take it. If not, I may pass the ball. I may as well force my own shot anyway.
Mamba mentality: Pass? Just grab the rebound!

It's not that pass-first players pass the ball all the time. It's that they have the tendency to look for the pass instead of primarily looking for their own shot. Like you said, they always look to make the right play.

I'm not just talking about all-time greats. I mean, look at players like Rondo and Rubio. They are passing up open shots all the time. Obviously, it's not that they don't want to score. Everybody wants to score! They just realize that they aren't good enough shooters, hence they would be helping their team more by passing the ball (even if their opponent is daring them to shoot). Imo, this is what makes a truly great player: The ability to play the game as a thinker. The ability to know when's the right time to step up for your team and when's the right time to step aside in favour of your teammates.

(off topic)
Hate to say it, but imo Tatum and Brown aren't playing the game as thinkers. Not yet anyway. Most of the times, they just look for their own shot. But then again, there are very few players who can think the game through at such a young age. Luka is definitely one of them. SGA comes to mind as well. I've written it numerous times. I love that kid's game!