(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[gar]

Like everyone is saying there are lots of variables. Bradley comes back. Lee and Terry get more minutes with Rondo out. Wilcox and Green playing more minutes with Sullinger down. Crawford is also a better scorer than Barbosa. Ball movement and uptempo game replace Rondo centric approach. Doc does not like change; but when it is forced on him often proves that he can actually be a good coach when he has to be.

[celticmania]

i hope rondo comes back next season and commits to playing defense like he used to. he was at one point the best pg defensively he just doesnt play d anymore. next season if he starts playing defense and is more agresive in looking to score, we will be a better team. i think rondo could average 17 ppg if he wanted to.

[LEHGOCELTICS]

Sigh. Knicks aren't better with Amar'e out, Heat weren't better with Wade out last season, and Celtics are not better with Rondo out. It just doesn't work that way.

[fairweatherfan]

Is this the thread where we're settling it?  Let us know how it turns out 

[CelticConcourse]

Sigh. Knicks aren't better with Amar'e out, Heat weren't better with Wade out last season, and Celtics are not better with Rondo out. It just doesn't work that way.

Knicks case is also debatable.

[connor]

Sigh. Knicks aren't better with Amar'e out, Heat weren't better with Wade out last season, and Celtics are not better with Rondo out. It just doesn't work that way.

Knicks case is also debatable.

The knicks are a prime example of a team not optimizing their talent, which seems to be part of the issue with Rondo.

Of course the Knicks are a better team on paper with Amar'e, but they still haven't found the optimal way to pair him with Melo and Tyson to get the most out of them. Thats why things seem to run smoother with him out. Of course they can win with him in there, based on pure talent alone, but the team game is better with him out because it flows better.

With Rondo out we are starting to see this team be able to string together wins at a fairly impressive clip, which makes people think our situation is similar to the Knicks. Of course our team is better with Rondo's talent on the court, but what we need is for Doc to find ways of maximizing his ability together with everyone else's. Rondo playing the game to the best of his talents, just like Amar'e doing the same, might not work best for the team.

We will be WAY better when he comes back, we just need to find areas he creates the most value for this team.

[CoachBo]

I'd be very interested to see a link where Doc admits he's the architect of the "Rondo-centric" offense.

Until then, you'll have to excuse me if I view that as a laughable rationalization, rather than an explanation.

[dark_lord]

whether or not we are a better team is debatable, however, what is not debatable is that we are playing better without him and playing more team basketball without him.  the ball is moving nicely via the pass rather than via the dribble.  the team is also playing with more grit and effort (by observation).  the defense on the perimeter is also improved since rondo went down.  lastly, our record is much better

[nickagneta]

I'd be very interested to see a link where Doc admits he's the architect of the "Rondo-centric" offense.

Until then, you'll have to excuse me if I view that as a laughable rationalization, rather than an explanation.

Gotta agree with coach here. Now that Doc has seen how this offense works with the ball movement going on, my guess is he isn't going to allow the ball to "stick" in Rondo's hands.

Doc tends to notice when the ball "sticks" to others hands and not so much Rondo. I doubt Doc ever conceived of a "Rondo centric" offense, its just the way the offense bogged down once the off the ball movement wasn't happening, fast break basketball wasn't happening, and Rondo allowed the ball to sit in his possession to long.

Its going to be on Rondo to learn to trust the others with helping to make the offense work, its going to be up to the rest of the team to continue to do what they have been over the last month, and its going to be up to Doc not to allow the team but into the rut they were in earlier this year.

Personally, I honestly don't see that the overall offense is more efficient. Want to make the C's more efficient? Here's some ideas:

1. Start sending one or two people to the offensive boards every possession. Enough with ignoring offensive boards to get back on defense. You are giving up to much offense because of it.
2. Star insisting that the players taking all the long 2 pointers, step back one large step in their positioning and start taking threes. The amount of 2 pointers this team makes while within less than a foot of being a three pointer is amazingly pathetic.
3. Create a post scoring game. Sully will probably be that guy. But get another in the off season. The lack of inside game is killing this team at the end of games sometimes when an easy toss in and two points is just what they need.

Do these things and I bet the offensive efficiency goes way up.

[RyNye]

2. Star insisting that the players taking all the long 2 pointers, step back one large step in their positioning and start taking threes. The amount of 2 pointers this team makes while within less than a foot of being a three pointer is amazingly pathetic.

I generally agree with your point.

The one thing I will say about the long 2 pointers is that, as a team, the Celtics are the best in the league at making that shot, and many team's defenses are geared towards allowing that shot. While it is irritating that we rely on it so completely and have problems if those shots aren't falling, I don't think it is necessary to remove it entirely from our repertoire.

The fact is that making that shot at a good clip is a huge hole in many of the best defensive schemes out there. Both the Grizzlies and the Bulls WANT people to take that shot, and if we can hit it we want it too.

That said, we still need someone who can score inside on a higher percentage look when our shooters are cold, as happens from time to time.

[Celtics18]

I'd be very interested to see a link where Doc admits he's the architect of the "Rondo-centric" offense.

Until then, you'll have to excuse me if I view that as a laughable rationalization, rather than an explanation.

http://www.csnne.com/sportsnetNewEngland/search/v/52668953/doc-rondo-s-offensive-execution-off-the-charts.htm

This is a good Doc Rivers post game press conference from about a year ago where he talks about Rondo running the offense. 

[vjcsmoke]

2. Star insisting that the players taking all the long 2 pointers, step back one large step in their positioning and start taking threes. The amount of 2 pointers this team makes while within less than a foot of being a three pointer is amazingly pathetic.

I generally agree with your point.

The one thing I will say about the long 2 pointers is that, as a team, the Celtics are the best in the league at making that shot, and many team's defenses are geared towards allowing that shot. While it is irritating that we rely on it so completely and have problems if those shots aren't falling, I don't think it is necessary to remove it entirely from our repertoire.

The fact is that making that shot at a good clip is a huge hole in many of the best defensive schemes out there. Both the Grizzlies and the Bulls WANT people to take that shot, and if we can hit it we want it too.

That said, we still need someone who can score inside on a higher percentage look when our shooters are cold, as happens from time to time.

You mean like a post scorer?  When's the last time we had that in Boston?  Feels like ages.  I'm hoping the C's take a chance on Olynyk in the draft.  True 7 footer with post scoring ability.  Not all that athletic, but with the skill and offense he'd give, I think if you can coach him up to serviceable at defense he would be worth it.

Rondo is super controversial.  You either think he's a bum who should be moved or a superstar that defines the franchise.  I think he's somewhere in between.  An all-star caliber PG for sure, but maybe he's not the best choice for the Celtics moving forward if they play their best ball without him.

[Celtics4ever]

Rondo is super controversial.  You either think he's a bum who should be moved or a superstar that defines the franchise.  I think he's somewhere in between.  An all-star caliber PG for sure, but maybe he's not the best choice for the Celtics moving forward if they play their best ball without him.

Meaningless games won in the second half of the season but can we win a series without him?   If we don't get fourth seed I think it will be difficult.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/02/06/why-celtics-aren-better-without-rajon-rondo/1iLgDxzkX1Rvcs9u0nFZVO/story.html

The lunatic fringe is here in many respects but Chin was right it has not lasted.   We lost some games and won some since the streak.   But who really thinks we can win a tough series without him.   Regular season and post season are two different things.

Even if you get Olynyk you will need someone to pass him the ball.

[mmmmm]

I know which month was terrys worst but you still left out one of his worst months *I think second worst* with rondo. The fact remains you still left out months and left out valuable information. Either way tho, the numbers don't prove a dang thing. Maybe if it was clearly favoring one side it would but its not.

The game isn't played on a stat sheet and it isn't won on a stat sheet. If you watch the games you can see the ball movement is far better without rondo and you can see the players look more comfortable. You can't find COMFORTABLE on a stat sheet. Sure terry and lee and green hit some open shots when rondo dished it to them. As any player who can shoot would. Still, they all look alot more comfortable out there without rondo and more importantly over anything else, they're winning without him.

...I think we are arguing about two different things here.

All I'm saying is, Terry, Lee, and Green are all capable of playing well with Rondo on the floor, which is what some people don't seem to believe. We saw it at various points during the season, although judging by our record and offense through Dec-Jan, it didn't happen nearly as often as it should have. While some of the blame clearly goes to Rondo, my point was that there are other factors, IN ADDITION to Rajon, that are overlooked or dismissed completely. And I've explained why I think that somewhere else in this thread, so at this point I'd just be repeating myself.

I mean, do you not think Rondo can tweak his game when he comes back next season to make our team even better? Do you not think Rondo is capable of playing with a guy like Green?

Ahhh i see, maybe we are talking about different things if your only point is terry lee and green are capable of playing well with rondo. Yes I think rondo can tweak his game.

The question is will he. The question is will doc even look into doing that or will he go right back to the way things were the very second rondo comes back.

I'm not exactly confident that rondo or doc will do the right thing. Doc is already known to be really stubborn at times.

  Green, Lee and Terry can play well with Rondo. So can PP, KG and Bradley. So can Sully for that matter. Doc will probably tweak the offense next year and we'll probably play a little more uptempo next year but we'll still probably have Rondo control the ball more on offense than the other guards do. He's a significantly better ball handler and passer than any of them.

People who look at the overall assist rates and TO rates of the team tend to disagree with this because overall those numbers are around the same, but there are some subtleties that illustrate the difference.

If you look at the percentage of assists that lead to shots in the post (within a few feet of the basket) Rondo's number was just under 43% this season.   None of those other guys, when I checked a few days ago, were over 40%.  In fact all were were well below that.

Considering how precious it is for this offense to get points inside when it can, this is where Rondo's skills really show up.   When the team's jump shots are not falling, he has better ability to get the ball to someone at the rim than the rest of the team.

You can look at the assisted shot location distributions at the new stat pages at nba.com.

[Greenback]

For one thing, rondo had Sullinger to pass to down low. 

If we still had Sully we might be 20-0 w/o RR