(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[eugen]

I have a few questions for those who think we're better without Rondo:

Why you do not agree with the reality? We do not think. We are sure because the stats tell us that: With Rondo the score is 20-23, without Rondo is 13-4

Do you think this team can win in the playoffs (In other words, how far can they go?)?

The team can reach the finals of the EAST if they play like now.

Do you think we should keep this core next year and trade Rondo?

This is the best solution. Trade him and sign a good center, and try to get a normal PG

Do you think we play better without Rondo, OR do you think we're a better team without Rondo (two entirely different questions)?

Of course the team plays better without him.

Do you think our record would be worse if Rondo was still playing?

Of course. With Rondo the team was under .500 score, in critical situation maiking or not making playoffs. Remember what is said after lost game in OT @ Atlanta?

[CelticsFan9]

I have a few questions for those who think we're better without Rondo:

Why you do not agree with the reality? We do not think. We are sure because the stats tell us that: With Rondo the score is 20-23, without Rondo is 13-4

Do you think this team can win in the playoffs (In other words, how far can they go?)?

The team can reach the finals of the EAST if they play like now.

Do you think we should keep this core next year and trade Rondo?

This is the best solution. Trade him and sign a good center, and try to get a normal PG

Do you think we play better without Rondo, OR do you think we're a better team without Rondo (two entirely different questions)?

Of course the team plays better without him.

Do you think our record would be worse if Rondo was still playing?

Of course. With Rondo the team was under .500 score, in critical situation maiking or not making playoffs. Remember what is said after lost game in OT @ Atlanta?

Where did I say I disagreed with you?  Quit attacking me and appreciate the freaking TP.  Look, we're 1-0 without KG, and 32-27 with him.  I'd rather win 100% of my games, so I guess we should get rid of KG, too?  Great logic.

Agree about reaching the East finals.  The only two teams that really scare me are Chicago and Miami, and it looks like they play each other in the second round.  Score!

What's a "normal PG?"

While I agree that we've played better without Rondo, people need to realize this team isn't a contender without Rondo.  He's one of the few guys in the entire league that Miami is scared of.  Danny built this team to beat Miami, and Rondo was the key cog in his plan.  Now that Rondo's out, we're a worse team.

I have no idea what our record would be.  Just a month ago the Lakers lost to us badly and now they're above .500, so you never know.

[eugen]

What's a "normal PG?"

Normal means a good point guard who does not get too much money if you compare to Rondo and who has experience in NBA

While I agree that we've played better without Rondo, people need to realize this team isn't a contender without Rondo.  He's one of the few guys in the entire league that Miami is scared of.  Danny built this team to beat Miami, and Rondo was the key cog in his plan.

To beat MIAMI you need a good defensive team, to stop Lebron and Wade. Rondo is not the right guy to stop them. If Danny created the team based on Rondo to beat HEAT, thats why Cs could not beat MIAMI in last 2 seasons

[bfrombleacher]

I think to say the Celtics are better without Rondo is a huge mistake, and I hope the team keeps both him and Bradley as I think they are better when both play together: i.e. Bradley cutting ability goes perfect with Rondo passing ability on offense, and on defense with Bradley on the ball handler Rondo can anticipate shooter and get more steals on the pass lane. What I think its happening right now is that when Rondo was present the team was insisting in playing a type of basketball that wouldn't be very successful on the regular season given it high risk for mistakes since Rondo was always trying to figure out what the best play was, put together the fact that the team was still getting to know itself, more probable mistakes were to happen, and we kept seeing it over and over again, except against more familiar faces (which end up being most of these national TV games). But when it comes to post season this is the type of basketball you want your team playing since you have plenty time to study the opponent, and in that moment you want somebody like Rondo who can pick up the other team configuration and exploit the best match up.
So my hope as a Celtics fan is that the Team learn how to play both ways, and develop the ability to switch back and forth as needed.

Cool post from the comments on Celtics Life. Can't believe I only just found out about the site.

[BballTim]

What's a "normal PG?"

Normal means a good point guard who does not get too much money if you compare to Rondo and who has experience in NBA

While I agree that we've played better without Rondo, people need to realize this team isn't a contender without Rondo.  He's one of the few guys in the entire league that Miami is scared of.  Danny built this team to beat Miami, and Rondo was the key cog in his plan.

To beat MIAMI you need a good defensive team, to stop Lebron and Wade. Rondo is not the right guy to stop them. If Danny created the team based on Rondo to beat HEAT, thats why Cs could not beat MIAMI in last 2 seasons

  Last year we had the best defense in the league. That only takes you so far. You also have to have an offense that can hold up against tough defenses, that's something we need Rondo for. Did you like our offense against the Bulls or the Pacers? Because those are the types of defenses we'll be facing in the playoffs.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

First off you left out one of lees worst months which was with rondo. November he shot 42 percent. Secondly you took lees months individually but then you averaged how he did in febuary and march *Even tho we're only one week into march* to make his averages look bad since hes off to a bad start shooting wise in march. This is why I never trust stats over what I know I'm seeing on the court.

This is also why I never trust stats when you guys post them because in most cases you can pick and choose what stats you want and leave out the bad ones to make your case look stronger than it really is.

Lee shot 47 percent in february and 41 percent from 3 *His best month from deep* without rondo. You didn't say that tho because It wouldn't have made the strongest case for your point which is "Lee played better with rondo".

You also left out one of terrys worst months *With rondo how surprising* when he shot 41 percent in january. Rondo got hurt in that month but it was at the very end of the month so you have to count that. Terry shot 48 percent in february but instead of saying that you took that month and march *Even tho its only a week into the month* to make his average look a little worse overall.

Go figure you also left out of greens bad months with rondo *November* I could keep going but you see my point. From what I'm seeing here lee green and terry played AT THE VERY LEAST no worse without rondo and you could make a strong case by the numbers and by watching the games that they play better without him. None of these numbers prove the celtics miss rondo in any way shape or form.

[ejk3489]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

First off you left out one of lees worst months which was with rondo. November he shot 42 percent. Secondly you took lees months individually but then you averaged how he did in febuary and march *Even tho we're only one week into march* to make his averages look bad since hes off to a bad start shooting wise in march. This is why I never trust stats over what I know I'm seeing on the court.

This is also why I never trust stats when you guys post them because in most cases you can pick and choose what stats you want and leave out the bad ones to make your case look stronger than it really is.

Lee shot 47 percent in february and 41 percent from 3 *His best month from deep* without rondo. You didn't say that tho because It wouldn't have made the strongest case for your point which is "Lee played better with rondo".

You also left out one of terrys worst months *With rondo how surprising* when he shot 41 percent in january. Rondo got hurt in that month but it was at the very end of the month so you have to count that. Terry shot 48 percent in february but instead of saying that you took that month and march *Even tho its only a week into the month* to make his average look a little worse overall.

Go figure you also left out of greens bad months with rondo *November* I could keep going but you see my point. From what I'm seeing here lee green and terry played AT THE VERY LEAST no worse without rondo and you could make a strong case by the numbers and by watching the games that they play better without him. None of these numbers prove the celtics miss rondo in any way shape or form.

First of all, my point was never "Lee, Green, and Terry play better with Rondo", and no where in my post did I imply that. In fact I specifically said he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season.

Second of all, Terry's worst month shooting the ball was in December (37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%), which I clearly noted in my post. And I purposely put examples of their good shooting months as well as their bad ones to show that there have been times where Terry, Lee, Green, ect. play well with Rondo *and* without him. You implied that everyone is suddenly playing better because Rondo is out, when that's just not true. Green, for example, started to improve well before Rondo's injury.

And no, I didn't intentionally average February and March together to make their averages look worse. Those "without Rondo" stats are from January 25th to March 6th - I think you can guess why.
 

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

First off you left out one of lees worst months which was with rondo. November he shot 42 percent. Secondly you took lees months individually but then you averaged how he did in febuary and march *Even tho we're only one week into march* to make his averages look bad since hes off to a bad start shooting wise in march. This is why I never trust stats over what I know I'm seeing on the court.

This is also why I never trust stats when you guys post them because in most cases you can pick and choose what stats you want and leave out the bad ones to make your case look stronger than it really is.

Lee shot 47 percent in february and 41 percent from 3 *His best month from deep* without rondo. You didn't say that tho because It wouldn't have made the strongest case for your point which is "Lee played better with rondo".

You also left out one of terrys worst months *With rondo how surprising* when he shot 41 percent in january. Rondo got hurt in that month but it was at the very end of the month so you have to count that. Terry shot 48 percent in february but instead of saying that you took that month and march *Even tho its only a week into the month* to make his average look a little worse overall.

Go figure you also left out of greens bad months with rondo *November* I could keep going but you see my point. From what I'm seeing here lee green and terry played AT THE VERY LEAST no worse without rondo and you could make a strong case by the numbers and by watching the games that they play better without him. None of these numbers prove the celtics miss rondo in any way shape or form.

First of all, my point was never "Lee, Green, and Terry play better with Rondo", and no where in my post did I imply that. In fact I specifically said he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season.

Second of all, Terry's worst month shooting the ball was in December (37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%), which I clearly noted in my post. And I purposely put examples of their good shooting months as well as their bad ones to show that there have been times where Terry, Lee, Green, ect. play well with Rondo *and* without him. You implied that everyone is suddenly playing better because Rondo is out, when that's just not true. Green, for example, started to improve well before Rondo's injury.

And no, I didn't intentionally average February and March together to make their averages look worse. Those "without Rondo" stats are from January 25th to March 6th - I think you can guess why.

I know which month was terrys worst but you still left out one of his worst months *I think second worst* with rondo. The fact remains you still left out months and left out valuable information. Either way tho, the numbers don't prove a dang thing. Maybe if it was clearly favoring one side it would but its not.

The game isn't played on a stat sheet and it isn't won on a stat sheet. If you watch the games you can see the ball movement is far better without rondo and you can see the players look more comfortable. You can't find COMFORTABLE on a stat sheet. Sure terry and lee and green hit some open shots when rondo dished it to them. As any player who can shoot would. Still, they all look alot more comfortable out there without rondo and more importantly over anything else, they're winning without him.

[ejk3489]

I know which month was terrys worst but you still left out one of his worst months *I think second worst* with rondo. The fact remains you still left out months and left out valuable information. Either way tho, the numbers don't prove a dang thing. Maybe if it was clearly favoring one side it would but its not.

The game isn't played on a stat sheet and it isn't won on a stat sheet. If you watch the games you can see the ball movement is far better without rondo and you can see the players look more comfortable. You can't find COMFORTABLE on a stat sheet. Sure terry and lee and green hit some open shots when rondo dished it to them. As any player who can shoot would. Still, they all look alot more comfortable out there without rondo and more importantly over anything else, they're winning without him.

...I think we are arguing about two different things here.

All I'm saying is, Terry, Lee, and Green are all capable of playing well with Rondo on the floor, which is what some people don't seem to believe. We saw it at various points during the season, although judging by our record and offense through Dec-Jan, it didn't happen nearly as often as it should have. While some of the blame clearly goes to Rondo, my point was that there are other factors that are overlooked or being dismissed completely. And I've explained why I think that somewhere else in this thread, so at this point I'd just be repeating myself.

I mean, do you not think Rondo can tweak his game when he comes back next season to make our team even better? Do you not think Rondo is capable of playing with a guy like Green?

[Lightskinsmurf]

I know which month was terrys worst but you still left out one of his worst months *I think second worst* with rondo. The fact remains you still left out months and left out valuable information. Either way tho, the numbers don't prove a dang thing. Maybe if it was clearly favoring one side it would but its not.

The game isn't played on a stat sheet and it isn't won on a stat sheet. If you watch the games you can see the ball movement is far better without rondo and you can see the players look more comfortable. You can't find COMFORTABLE on a stat sheet. Sure terry and lee and green hit some open shots when rondo dished it to them. As any player who can shoot would. Still, they all look alot more comfortable out there without rondo and more importantly over anything else, they're winning without him.

...I think we are arguing about two different things here.

All I'm saying is, Terry, Lee, and Green are all capable of playing well with Rondo on the floor, which is what some people don't seem to believe. We saw it at various points during the season, although judging by our record and offense through Dec-Jan, it didn't happen nearly as often as it should have. While some of the blame clearly goes to Rondo, my point was that there are other factors, IN ADDITION to Rajon, that are overlooked or dismissed completely. And I've explained why I think that somewhere else in this thread, so at this point I'd just be repeating myself.

I mean, do you not think Rondo can tweak his game when he comes back next season to make our team even better? Do you not think Rondo is capable of playing with a guy like Green?

Ahhh i see, maybe we are talking about different things if your only point is terry lee and green are capable of playing well with rondo. Yes I think rondo can tweak his game.

The question is will he. The question is will doc even look into doing that or will he go right back to the way things were the very second rondo comes back.

I'm not exactly confident that rondo or doc will do the right thing. Doc is already known to be really stubborn at times.

[triple-doublerr]

  So for whatever reason, the team was in a slump. You can see it in PP and KG and Terry's numbers for various months. They're no longer in that slump. So considering how well Green is playing and our main offensive players are all playing better we should be *better* than we were earlier this year. We're not. That's because we're missing our best player.

This is just getting ugly, Timmy. It just smells like blind denial all the way around: who the team was with Rondo, who they are without him, your total disregard for results, even who their best player is... the entire POV.

I hope they keep getting worse without Rondo 

I guess since BBallTim doesn't prescribe to this overwhelming silly dialogue about how all 23 of our losses pre Rondo's ACL injury were a direct result of Rondo himself  , he's in blind denial...if so sign me up right along with him.

When the whole topic of better without Rondo started after the Miami game I found it silly then and it's even sillier now. We have a better record since then which is great! But, to try and make Rondo the catalyst and fall guy for our entire record before he went out as a knee-jerk reaction (no pun intended) is ridiculous.
JET made comments to the effect of "the offense was too predictable with KG and Pierce being the main go-to guys", which I noticed a majority of the "blame Rondo" camp were willing to take and run with as another aha, it must've been all Rondo's fault logic. Without dragging this point out or turning it into further debate, my point is.....We could have utilized the strategy that we are currently playing with without losing anyone to injury and more than likely would've yielded the same positive results in our record, provided that Pierce & JET were out of their slumps as they are now.

Yes, Rondo has his faults and some annoying tendencies during games but that NEVER was the main reason for our record before he went down. For those that want to continue to live in that fantasy land, have at it I guess!

[triple-doublerr]

okay the team has a worse records without Rondo. I agree with you.

What Rondo debate was "settled"? No one was debating our record. So what were you referring to???

I was referring to those who argue that we are only playing better because the other players decided to step it up after Rondo got hurt. That argument begs the question why didnt these players step up game with Rondo. I am just stating facts not assigning blame. Rationalizing does not change the fact

Possibly because Doc had those players on short leashes until Rondo went down & he couldn't. Did you ever notice before Rondo's injury how any player not named KG, Pierce, JET and Bass would miss a couple of shots and then be relegated to the bench for the rest of the game? How Green, however inconsistent it was, would have a hot stretch and then wouldn't be seen on the court the whole second half while Pierce was 2 for 15 and turning the ball over yet still in the game chucking up shots. How Bass was stinking up the joint for a good long while yet it was only maybe a week before Rondo's injury that Doc decided that Sully would be better starting.Or maybe Doc was forced to utilize those players more since Rondo went out thus not having to rely so heavily on Pierce and KG for scoring especially since Rondo was the only guard on the team that knew how to run Doc's playbook.
You need to stop being fecitious, we all know what our record is pre and post Rondo's ACL. Not everyone is going to agree with your stance that the record pre injury was all on Rondo!

[BballTim]

I know which month was terrys worst but you still left out one of his worst months *I think second worst* with rondo. The fact remains you still left out months and left out valuable information. Either way tho, the numbers don't prove a dang thing. Maybe if it was clearly favoring one side it would but its not.

The game isn't played on a stat sheet and it isn't won on a stat sheet. If you watch the games you can see the ball movement is far better without rondo and you can see the players look more comfortable. You can't find COMFORTABLE on a stat sheet. Sure terry and lee and green hit some open shots when rondo dished it to them. As any player who can shoot would. Still, they all look alot more comfortable out there without rondo and more importantly over anything else, they're winning without him.

...I think we are arguing about two different things here.

All I'm saying is, Terry, Lee, and Green are all capable of playing well with Rondo on the floor, which is what some people don't seem to believe. We saw it at various points during the season, although judging by our record and offense through Dec-Jan, it didn't happen nearly as often as it should have. While some of the blame clearly goes to Rondo, my point was that there are other factors, IN ADDITION to Rajon, that are overlooked or dismissed completely. And I've explained why I think that somewhere else in this thread, so at this point I'd just be repeating myself.

I mean, do you not think Rondo can tweak his game when he comes back next season to make our team even better? Do you not think Rondo is capable of playing with a guy like Green?

Ahhh i see, maybe we are talking about different things if your only point is terry lee and green are capable of playing well with rondo. Yes I think rondo can tweak his game.

The question is will he. The question is will doc even look into doing that or will he go right back to the way things were the very second rondo comes back.

I'm not exactly confident that rondo or doc will do the right thing. Doc is already known to be really stubborn at times.

  Green, Lee and Terry can play well with Rondo. So can PP, KG and Bradley. So can Sully for that matter. Doc will probably tweak the offense next year and we'll probably play a little more uptempo next year but we'll still probably have Rondo control the ball more on offense than the other guards do. He's a significantly better ball handler and passer than any of them.

[Yogi]

The simple fact is without Rondo the Celtics would've been like 12-31.  He CARRIED us.  He was by FAR the best Celtic to start this season.  Just because the rest of the team had to actually start doing some work and putting in some effort after the guy who was doing everything went out, some how it becomes Rondo's fault?  If the players played with the same intensity when Rondo was still healthy, we would be one of the best teams in the league.  The only people to blame are Green and Wilcox's recovery, Bass and Terry's slump and Pierce's and Bradley's injuries.  That's it. 

[More Banners]

Perhaps we trade Bradley for a scoring-2, like Demarr Derozan, Gerald Henderson, MarShon Brooks, or something like that. 

Look for that multi-threat scorer to pair with Rondo, Green, and Sully.  Must be able to draw fouls, get drive-kick assists, and shoot 3-ball.  JET can't fly every night any more, and isn't a future piece, and a streaky win-now piece.  Bradley and Bass are on the table, JET, too.

We all know Rondo is the best player. Get him back on track to play the right way, and fix the problem with lack of offensive punch by trading out role players for scorers, and I think that with Rondo in line on the defensive end, losing Bradley won't be a killer.

Having a backup to Rondo and using him is key to getting Rondo to play on both ends.  Lots of guys auditioning right now.

Wilcox needs to produce at the rate and minutes he did in Seattle, but while winning here in Boston.

Good Rondo is a potential Finals MVP.  We can compete and win without him, so I take a good deal, but he does have a lot to offer.  The question seems to be how to use ROndo off the ball.  Is that why he handles the rock so much?