(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[BballTim]

  Did Magic lead his team in scoring in any of their title years? I'd be a little surprised if he did.

86-87.

  Good find. He never did in the playoffs, that must have been what I was thinking of.

[LooseCannon]

Here's what Ainge had to say:

On how the team has played differently without Rajon Rondo: "...Sometimes it's the fact that the players defer to the other great players. Sometimes they don't practice it because it's just so easy to get the ball to Rondo to bring up all the time instead of Avery grabbing the defensive rebound and pushing the ball up the court himself, and Rondo running on the other wing and the ball being swung to Rondo and now he's coming off the pick-and-roll. And so, I think that we're all learning from this. We're all learning that the respect of the other players is growing and they get the respect that they now deserve, as opposed to being the guys that aren't living up to their potential.

"It's just amazing that two months ago it was Jeff Green and Courtney Lee and Jason Terry that weren't playing well enough. And now all of a sudden we're 13-4 and those guys are playing great. And I think that Rondo was, like, voted a starter on the All-Star team and now it's like we're better without him. I mean, this stuff is crazy, how the trends go. I think there's a tiny bit of truth in all of it, like Rondo can adjust his game to allow other players to play a little better, move better without the ball, play more, cut harder, and shoot more, shoot his mid-range jump shot more. I think all those things, and turn the ball over less. But I think that we have a much better chance of beating Miami in a playoff series with Rajon Rondo."

I think he's right that part of the problem is that players deferred too much to the Rondo-god.  I'm much more optimistic about Rondo being able to adjust his game as he learns to trust his newer teammates than I am about bringing in a player with star potential and a headcase reputation (say, Demarcus Cousins) and having that player improve mentally under the influence of KG and Doc.  I'd still like to add another big and a wing who is good at catch and shoot situations, though.

Ainge also said that part of the problem was the poor defense earlier in the season.  I thought that was a problem due to the new personnel and the absence of Bradley and that it would take at least half a season before the defense was what we want to see.  That is something that was obviously getting better as the season progressed.  Rondo's injury just happened to coincide with when the defense was really just starting to gel.  I have a lot of confidence in the team's ability to play like a top five defense next season, since they will probably have the personnel that knows the scheme, and as long as they have that, they will always be at least a fringe legitimate contender. 

[BballTim]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

  So, for the record, if PP and Jet had their best play of the year when Rondo was playing and both were playing poorly when they were struggling with injuries are you still claiming that Rondo leaving the lineup was the reason that they were playing better? If you're claiming that Rondo was causing them to play poorly, how do you explain the fact that they were playing better in November playing with Rondo than they have been since he was out?

  Similarly, if Green's shooting improved greatly in January when Rondo was playing and continued to improve when Rondo left the lineup are you saying he was also playing better because Rondo stopped playing? If so, how do you explain the improvement in his play while Rondo was still in the lineup?

  If Lee's play improved when Rondo left the lineup and his play fell off after a few games would you still say that the temporary improvement was because of Rondo?

  How would you respond to the claim that Rondo and Sully's injuries freed up playing time logjams and getting more consistent minutes made people play better? Are you going to say that it's not possible that's true?

  Did I miss you addressing these issues somewhere? Because right now all I'm seeing is you insisting that Rondo leaving was the cause of our upswing and ignoring any of the other reasonable explanations about what's happened to the team.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Here's what Ainge had to say:

On how the team has played differently without Rajon Rondo: "...Sometimes it's the fact that the players defer to the other great players. Sometimes they don't practice it because it's just so easy to get the ball to Rondo to bring up all the time instead of Avery grabbing the defensive rebound and pushing the ball up the court himself, and Rondo running on the other wing and the ball being swung to Rondo and now he's coming off the pick-and-roll. And so, I think that we're all learning from this. We're all learning that the respect of the other players is growing and they get the respect that they now deserve, as opposed to being the guys that aren't living up to their potential.

"It's just amazing that two months ago it was Jeff Green and Courtney Lee and Jason Terry that weren't playing well enough. And now all of a sudden we're 13-4 and those guys are playing great. And I think that Rondo was, like, voted a starter on the All-Star team and now it's like we're better without him. I mean, this stuff is crazy, how the trends go. I think there's a tiny bit of truth in all of it, like Rondo can adjust his game to allow other players to play a little better, move better without the ball, play more, cut harder, and shoot more, shoot his mid-range jump shot more. I think all those things, and turn the ball over less. But I think that we have a much better chance of beating Miami in a playoff series with Rajon Rondo."

I think he's right that part of the problem is that players deferred too much to the Rondo-god.  I'm much more optimistic about Rondo being able to adjust his game as he learns to trust his newer teammates than I am about bringing in a player with star potential and a headcase reputation (say, Demarcus Cousins) and having that player improve mentally under the influence of KG and Doc.  I'd still like to add another big and a wing who is good at catch and shoot situations, though.

Ainge also said that part of the problem was the poor defense earlier in the season.  I thought that was a problem due to the new personnel and the absence of Bradley and that it would take at least half a season before the defense was what we want to see.  That is something that was obviously getting better as the season progressed.  Rondo's injury just happened to coincide with when the defense was really just starting to gel.  I have a lot of confidence in the team's ability to play like a top five defense next season, since they will probably have the personnel that knows the scheme, and as long as they have that, they will always be at least a fringe legitimate contender.

I was waiting for somebody to post this so I didn't have too. I thought you guys were going to let me down for a second there.

[ejk3489]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

I don't care how you try to slice it. I know alot of people will try to bring up the KG argument saying "Oh, we played well without KG when he went down" There's one big difference there. We were winning with KG and continued to win without him for awhile. In this case we were LOSING and playing like GARBAGE with rondo. The second he goes down we look better and go on our best streak of the season. That just doesn't happen or shouldn't happen unless that player was hurting the team in some way.

I fail to see how Pierce rebounding the ball more has anything to do with Rondo.

And no, we don't have more team assists. We averaged 24.2 assists per 100 possessions and had a 62.8 AST% with Rondo. Without, we average 24.1 assists per 100 possessions and have a 62 AST%. So pretty much no difference with/without Rondo, which is surprising considering the amount of people claiming how improved the offense is. In reality, the offense is still mediocre at best while the defense has returned to an elite level - the real reason why we are winning. 

But, there is no use arguing this further if you are unable to see the other factors that contributed to our poor play besides Rondo. I assume since we had a losing record with Sully and a winning record without him, you believe he was hurting the team as well?

[BballTim]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

I don't care how you try to slice it. I know alot of people will try to bring up the KG argument saying "Oh, we played well without KG when he went down" There's one big difference there. We were winning with KG and continued to win without him for awhile. In this case we were LOSING and playing like GARBAGE with rondo. The second he goes down we look better and go on our best streak of the season. That just doesn't happen or shouldn't happen unless that player was hurting the team in some way.

I fail to see how Pierce rebounding the ball more has anything to do with Rondo.

  It (and the fact that he's not bouncing flat jumpers off the front of the rim) are signs that he's healthier and moving around better. Clearly his improved play isn't due to the fact that he's no longer playing with the pg that he had the most efficient scoring years of his career with.

[kgainez]

The more the Celtics play, the more it continues to amaze me how some can still make the argument that this team is not better without Rondo.
[/quote

it is kind of getting crazy
at what point will some of you people actually believe?
we are 13-4 and stole a game from the #2 Pacers.
it's really sad

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

  So, for the record, if PP and Jet had their best play of the year when Rondo was playing and both were playing poorly when they were struggling with injuries are you still claiming that Rondo leaving the lineup was the reason that they were playing better? If you're claiming that Rondo was causing them to play poorly, how do you explain the fact that they were playing better in November playing with Rondo than they have been since he was out?

  Similarly, if Green's shooting improved greatly in January when Rondo was playing and continued to improve when Rondo left the lineup are you saying he was also playing better because Rondo stopped playing? If so, how do you explain the improvement in his play while Rondo was still in the lineup?

  If Lee's play improved when Rondo left the lineup and his play fell off after a few games would you still say that the temporary improvement was because of Rondo?

  How would you respond to the claim that Rondo and Sully's injuries freed up playing time logjams and getting more consistent minutes made people play better? Are you going to say that it's not possible that's true?

  Did I miss you addressing these issues somewhere? Because right now all I'm seeing is you insisting that Rondo leaving was the cause of our upswing and ignoring any of the other reasonable explanations about what's happened to the team.

Before I address this give me the link to where you got these stats.

[2short]

like what ainge had to say
also same thing happened last year, we were subpar til all star game and then things were tuned in and the defense looked amazing and the offense improved
and yes that was DESPITE the fact that the evil rondo was playing 

[CelticsFan9]

I have a few questions for those who think we're better without Rondo:

Do you think this team can win in the playoffs (In other words, how far can they go?)?

Do you think we should keep this core next year and trade Rondo?

Do you think we play better without Rondo, OR do you think we're a better team without Rondo (two entirely different questions)?

Do you think our record would be worse if Rondo was still playing?

Feel free to give one word answers, but elaboration would be appreciated.  TPs for responses.

[kgainez]

I have sort of stayed away from this topic because Rondo is my favorite player in the league, but I will say a few things:

1) It is entirely possible that THIS team (i.e. the one with Lee, Green, Terry, etc...) is better without Rondo than with him.

2) It is also possible that people are simply stepping up their games because he went down.

3) It is definitely true that Rondo was dogging it on defense this year...for whatever reason I don't know.  He could be as good, if not better, than Bradley.

4) It was always a ridiculous statement that Rondo was the MVP of this team.  That is, and will continue to be, Kevin Garnett.

5) It also was a ridiculous statement that Rondo was our most important offensive player.  That is, and will continue to be, Paul Pierce.

6) Maybe Ray Allen knew something we haven't realized yet.

7) Rondo still is the most talented player on the roster right now and could take this franchise to a Finals.

this

[BballTim]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

  So, for the record, if PP and Jet had their best play of the year when Rondo was playing and both were playing poorly when they were struggling with injuries are you still claiming that Rondo leaving the lineup was the reason that they were playing better? If you're claiming that Rondo was causing them to play poorly, how do you explain the fact that they were playing better in November playing with Rondo than they have been since he was out?

  Similarly, if Green's shooting improved greatly in January when Rondo was playing and continued to improve when Rondo left the lineup are you saying he was also playing better because Rondo stopped playing? If so, how do you explain the improvement in his play while Rondo was still in the lineup?

  If Lee's play improved when Rondo left the lineup and his play fell off after a few games would you still say that the temporary improvement was because of Rondo?

  How would you respond to the claim that Rondo and Sully's injuries freed up playing time logjams and getting more consistent minutes made people play better? Are you going to say that it's not possible that's true?

  Did I miss you addressing these issues somewhere? Because right now all I'm seeing is you insisting that Rondo leaving was the cause of our upswing and ignoring any of the other reasonable explanations about what's happened to the team.

Before I address this give me the link to where you got these stats.

  Just monthly splits from espn or basketballreference, and game logs from the same place for Lee.

[kgainez]

I have a few questions for those who think we're better without Rondo:

Do you think this team can win in the playoffs (In other words, how far can they go?)?

Depends on our seeding. Right now, matched with Pacers, we could be a first round exit. If our first round is the Knicks or Hawks, we can get to the 2nd round. I'm worried most about the Heat (duh) and the Pacers. After the game yesterday though, it feels like this team has found ways to win and I wouldn't be mad to see us in the ECF at least.


Do you think we should keep this core next year and trade Rondo?

Nope. Rondo has to buy into the idea of ball movement and getting the ball up the floor. Also, the other role players have to gain confidence and stop deferring to RR, KG, PP

Do you think we play better without Rondo, OR do you think we're a better team without Rondo (two entirely different questions)?

Does not compute. It's tough to say because I think I'd have to make speculations about Rondo as a teammate.

Do you think our record would be worse if Rondo was still playing?

I most certainly do. It'd prolly be close to .500. Many of our games were won on ball movement and other folks not named PP or KG taking over.

Feel free to give one word answers, but elaboration would be appreciated.  TPs for responses.

My biggest issue with Rondo is I think he's the 'leader' of this team as he's been dubbed -- and that's fine because he's crazy talented. The problem is he seems to show up when he wants and how he wants.

When you know you're smart, you don't apply yourself all the time. You cram for your tests and ace those because you know when to show up. You skate past on regular assignments. Trust me. I'd know lol.

I think once he decides he wants to be more consistent, then the team would too.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

  So, for the record, if PP and Jet had their best play of the year when Rondo was playing and both were playing poorly when they were struggling with injuries are you still claiming that Rondo leaving the lineup was the reason that they were playing better? If you're claiming that Rondo was causing them to play poorly, how do you explain the fact that they were playing better in November playing with Rondo than they have been since he was out?

  Similarly, if Green's shooting improved greatly in January when Rondo was playing and continued to improve when Rondo left the lineup are you saying he was also playing better because Rondo stopped playing? If so, how do you explain the improvement in his play while Rondo was still in the lineup?

  If Lee's play improved when Rondo left the lineup and his play fell off after a few games would you still say that the temporary improvement was because of Rondo?

  How would you respond to the claim that Rondo and Sully's injuries freed up playing time logjams and getting more consistent minutes made people play better? Are you going to say that it's not possible that's true?

  Did I miss you addressing these issues somewhere? Because right now all I'm seeing is you insisting that Rondo leaving was the cause of our upswing and ignoring any of the other reasonable explanations about what's happened to the team.

Before I address this give me the link to where you got these stats.

  Just monthly splits from espn or basketballreference, and game logs from the same place for Lee.

Can't find out how to do it on a monthly basis I give up. I just noticed you skipped months for players tho. Something else that is weird to me is that LEE shot really well to start the season going by those numbers but if you watch the game his shots were off for awhile.

My guess is that he had some games where he only shot the ball like 3 times and maybe got two buckets which of course add up to a good percentage. So going by all these stats the celtics are either about the same without rondo or better and their record is alot better.

So, the celtics aren't worse without rondo *Going by numbers* and they are winning more games without him. So where exactly is he missed? I'm legit confused here.

[Lightskinsmurf]

I have a few questions for those who think we're better without Rondo:

Do you think this team can win in the playoffs (In other words, how far can they go?)?

Do you think we should keep this core next year and trade Rondo?

Do you think we play better without Rondo, OR do you think we're a better team without Rondo (two entirely different questions)?

Do you think our record would be worse if Rondo was still playing?

Feel free to give one word answers, but elaboration would be appreciated.  TPs for responses.

1.) I think they can go until they run into miami.

2.) I'm still tossing that around. Depends what we can get for him.

3.) I think we play better without rondo.

4.) Yup