(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

[ssspence]

I'd like to refer you to the Pistons of '89 and '90, the 2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and of course the Lakers of the 1980s.

You wrong. All of them had at least a big guy, or 2-3 superstars. For example Spurs had Tim Duncan+Ginobili+Parker

Lakers of 80s? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

In 1988, Kareem was--I believe--about 75 years old.

I bet you are a teenager and never seen NBA on 80 or 90s...

  Did you see the 80s? I can't believe anyone that did would claim teams built around point guards have never won titles.

Those teams -- the Lake show and the Pistons -- were built around PGs who where top scorers, and arguably two of the best at their position of all time. To say Rondo in anyway mirrors the games of either Magic or Thomas isn't reasonable.

If you remove those two examples, there really aren't any others in the shot clock era.

[eugen]

Those teams -- the Lake show and the Pistons -- were built around PGs who where top scorers,

How can be Lakers with top scorer PG when Jaabar is...

He is the NBA’s all-time leading scorer, with 38,387 points.

[BballTim]

I'd like to refer you to the Pistons of '89 and '90, the 2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and of course the Lakers of the 1980s.

You wrong. All of them had at least a big guy, or 2-3 superstars. For example Spurs had Tim Duncan+Ginobili+Parker

Lakers of 80s? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

In 1988, Kareem was--I believe--about 75 years old.

I bet you are a teenager and never seen NBA on 80 or 90s...

  Did you see the 80s? I can't believe anyone that did would claim teams built around point guards have never won titles.

I am sure you are a teenager. Telling me that Jaabar was 75 years old in 80s is the biggest stupidity I ever read in this forum. Learn the history and stop contaminating every topic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kareem_Abdul-Jabbar

  I didn't say that, but it was a fairly amusing *sarcastic* comment.

[BballTim]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

[BballTim]

I'd like to refer you to the Pistons of '89 and '90, the 2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and of course the Lakers of the 1980s.

You wrong. All of them had at least a big guy, or 2-3 superstars. For example Spurs had Tim Duncan+Ginobili+Parker

Lakers of 80s? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

In 1988, Kareem was--I believe--about 75 years old.

I bet you are a teenager and never seen NBA on 80 or 90s...

  Did you see the 80s? I can't believe anyone that did would claim teams built around point guards have never won titles.

Those teams -- the Lake show and the Pistons -- were built around PGs who where top scorers, and arguably two of the best at their position of all time. To say Rondo in anyway mirrors the games of either Magic or Thomas isn't reasonable.

If you remove those two examples, there really aren't any others in the shot clock era.

  Too funny. It has to be an exact type of point guard because things that haven't happened (or so people claim) in the past can't possibly happen in the future. I'd say that a player that can get us to within a game of a title when he's 25 will be capable of more when he's 28-30, just  like many other great players.

  The solution to the dilemma isn't to get rid of Rondo, it's to have him lead us to a title and have all of his critics give the credit to someone who better fits their idea of a top player on a title team. Everyone wins.

[BballTim]

Those teams -- the Lake show and the Pistons -- were built around PGs who where top scorers,

How can be Lakers with top scorer PG when Jaabar is...

He is the NBA’s all-time leading scorer, with 38,387 points.

  Did Magic lead his team in scoring in any of their title years? I'd be a little surprised if he did.

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

[ssspence]

I'd like to refer you to the Pistons of '89 and '90, the 2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and of course the Lakers of the 1980s.

You wrong. All of them had at least a big guy, or 2-3 superstars. For example Spurs had Tim Duncan+Ginobili+Parker

Lakers of 80s? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

In 1988, Kareem was--I believe--about 75 years old.

I bet you are a teenager and never seen NBA on 80 or 90s...

  Did you see the 80s? I can't believe anyone that did would claim teams built around point guards have never won titles.

Those teams -- the Lake show and the Pistons -- were built around PGs who where top scorers, and arguably two of the best at their position of all time. To say Rondo in anyway mirrors the games of either Magic or Thomas isn't reasonable.

If you remove those two examples, there really aren't any others in the shot clock era.

  Too funny. It has to be an exact type of point guard because things that haven't happened (or so people claim) in the past can't possibly happen in the future. I'd say that a player that can get us to within a game of a title when he's 25 will be capable of more when he's 28-30, just  like many other great players.

  The solution to the dilemma isn't to get rid of Rondo, it's to have him lead us to a title and have all of his critics give the credit to someone who better fits their idea of a top player on a title team. Everyone wins.

An exact type? I referred to 2 of the 3 greatest PGs of all time, both of whom were lethal scorers. Two of the greatest players to ever lace 'em up, period. Can you name another championship team that was built around a PG? Because it sure is easy to name teams that have been built around great PGs who couldn't hoist a trophy.

Meanwhile, it's embarrassing to try to compare Rondo to Johnson or Thomas. Rondo is below 25% from 3 and below 65% from the line for his career.

As I've said to you before, if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend Rondo is that type of player, be my guest but don't ask the rest of us to do it....


 

[BballTim]

I'd like to refer you to the Pistons of '89 and '90, the 2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and of course the Lakers of the 1980s.

You wrong. All of them had at least a big guy, or 2-3 superstars. For example Spurs had Tim Duncan+Ginobili+Parker

Lakers of 80s? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

In 1988, Kareem was--I believe--about 75 years old.

I bet you are a teenager and never seen NBA on 80 or 90s...

  Did you see the 80s? I can't believe anyone that did would claim teams built around point guards have never won titles.

Those teams -- the Lake show and the Pistons -- were built around PGs who where top scorers, and arguably two of the best at their position of all time. To say Rondo in anyway mirrors the games of either Magic or Thomas isn't reasonable.

If you remove those two examples, there really aren't any others in the shot clock era.

  Too funny. It has to be an exact type of point guard because things that haven't happened (or so people claim) in the past can't possibly happen in the future. I'd say that a player that can get us to within a game of a title when he's 25 will be capable of more when he's 28-30, just  like many other great players.

  The solution to the dilemma isn't to get rid of Rondo, it's to have him lead us to a title and have all of his critics give the credit to someone who better fits their idea of a top player on a title team. Everyone wins.

An exact type? I referred to 2 of the 3 greatest PGs of all time, both of whom were lethal scorers. These are two of the greatest players to ever lace 'em up, period. Can you name another championship team that was built around a PG? Because it sure is easy to name teams that have been built around great PGs who couldn't hoist a trophy.

Meanwhile, it's embarrassing to try to compare Rondo to Johnson or Thomas. Rondo is below 25% from 3 and below 65% from the line for his career.

As I've said to you before, if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend Rondo is that type of player, be my guest but don't ask the rest of us to do it....

  Here's part of one of my earlier posts about Rondo:

And if you want to talk about Rondo's "norm" it's the 17/6/11 including the Cleveland series, not the 14/6/8 without it. In 09 he went for 17/10/10, in 10 before the injury he was 17/6/11, in 11 before the elbow he was 17/7/11, in 12 he was 17/7/12.

  In Isiah's 2 title years in the playoffs he averaged 19/5/8. In Magic's 5 title years he averaged 19/8/12. Considering that Magic's teams averaged about 20 points a game more than the Celts and even Isiah's averaged more than us the 17/7/12 he's capable of is, at least statistically, reasonably comparable to what they did in their title years.

  Not saying Rondo's the same player that they were but people really sleep on what he does. Consider Stockton in his prime averaged about 16/4/12, Payton's prime was 22/5/7, Kidd's was 16/7/9, Nash was 18/4/10. Over the last 4 years Rondo's averaged 16/7/10. People like to look down their noses at what Rondo does but his stats in the playoffs hold up pretty well against stiff competition.

[LooseCannon]

  Did Magic lead his team in scoring in any of their title years? I'd be a little surprised if he did.

86-87.

[ejk3489]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

[Celtics18]

I'd like to refer you to the Pistons of '89 and '90, the 2007 Spurs, the 2004 Pistons, and of course the Lakers of the 1980s.

You wrong. All of them had at least a big guy, or 2-3 superstars. For example Spurs had Tim Duncan+Ginobili+Parker

Lakers of 80s? Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?

In 1988, Kareem was--I believe--about 75 years old.

I bet you are a teenager and never seen NBA on 80 or 90s...

How much?

[Lightskinsmurf]

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

  One of the biggest fallacies of this discussion is that Rondo's "bad habits" are the reason we were playing the way we were, like somehow not only PP and KG but the coaches had no say in the style of play that we saw. He's implementing Doc's game plan, and we've seen plenty of evidence over the years that it's a successful plan.

That's your problem, you keep talking about past years as If this is the same team as those other years and its not. What worked with one group of guys might not work with another.

  You're right, I don't know that I've ever seen Rondo start with KG, PP, Bass and Bradley before. I know that people generally refer to teams that return all 5 starters as being drastically different but I don't always agree with that. I'd say your problem is saying that something that worked earlier in the year and faltered when players (who were playing through injuries) were playing poorly can't work. Part of my problem is I talk about things that happened earlier *this year* and people don't have any recollection of that part of the season.

A bench is a HUGE part of a team. You can't just look at the starting lineup and say we have the same team and just completely ignore the fact our bench is 100 percent different. You're not the same team if your bench isn't what it was last year. I mean, duh...

Your problem is you're using the injury excuse. Pierce is STILL playing hurt according to reports. What do you mean by your last sentence? Your reasons to why the celtics were playing poorly and losing is filled with nothing but excuses.

You're telling me the celtics were playing bad because of new guys fitting in to the system and injuries but THE VERY SECOND rondo goes down all of a sudden everybody is playing well and nobody is hurt anymore? Just pure coincidence huh? Give it a rest tim. It really is getting ridiculous now.

Lee in December w/ Rondo: 46.9 FG%, 38.5 3PT%
Lee in January w/ Rondo: 50 FG%, 38.7 3PT%
Lee without Rondo: 43.3 FG%, 37.8 3PT%

Terry in November w/ Rondo : 52.1 FG%, 42.9 3PT%
Terry in December w/ Rondo: 37.4 FG%, 35.4 3PT%
Terry without Rondo: 45.5 FG%, 39 3PT%

Pierce in December w/ Rondo: 44.1 FG%, 35.5 3PT%
Pierce in January w/ Rondo: 39.4 FG%, 29.6 3PT%
Pierce without Rondo: 42.6%, 42 3PT%

Green in December w/ Rondo 41.1 FG%, 33.6 3PT%
Green in January w/ Rondo: 47.6 FG%, 37.5 3PT%
Green without Rondo: 50.8 FG%, 35.7 3PT%


Given that Lee, Terry, and Green have all performed very well with Rondo on the floor at some point this season, I think it's silly to say that he doesn't fit in with this team. I also fail to see how inconsistent shooting from the C's (noticeably Pierce and Terry, which could be due to injuries) is somehow Rondo's fault.

Yes, he was one of the problems with the Celtics poor play this season, but I think there is a lot of revisionist of history going on about this team before Rondo got hurt.

You failed to mention assists and rebounds. I know pierce has been doing more of that since rondo went down also correct me if I'm wrong don't the celtics have more TEAM assists without rondo? You can throw all the stats at me you want but the bottom line is the celtics were losing and looking really bad.

They started looking alot better and WINNING the very second rondo went down. Not a few games later not a couple weeks later but the very second rondo goes down we go on our longest win streak of the year. That is NOT supposed to happen when you lose your best player.

I don't care how you try to slice it. I know alot of people will try to bring up the KG argument saying "Oh, we played well without KG when he went down" There's one big difference there. We were winning with KG and continued to win without him for awhile. In this case we were LOSING and playing like GARBAGE with rondo. The second he goes down we look better and go on our best streak of the season. That just doesn't happen or shouldn't happen unless that player was hurting the team in some way.

[mctyson]

I have sort of stayed away from this topic because Rondo is my favorite player in the league, but I will say a few things:

1) It is entirely possible that THIS team (i.e. the one with Lee, Green, Terry, etc...) is better without Rondo than with him.

2) It is also possible that people are simply stepping up their games because he went down.

3) It is definitely true that Rondo was dogging it on defense this year...for whatever reason I don't know.  He could be as good, if not better, than Bradley.

4) It was always a ridiculous statement that Rondo was the MVP of this team.  That is, and will continue to be, Kevin Garnett.

5) It also was a ridiculous statement that Rondo was our most important offensive player.  That is, and will continue to be, Paul Pierce.

6) Maybe Ray Allen knew something we haven't realized yet.

7) Rondo still is the most talented player on the roster right now and could take this franchise to a Finals.