(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[BballTim]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

  Yeah, ignoring the bulk of his games (including the most recent ones) is probably the best way to gauge how well someone is playing.

[SHAQATTACK]

Maybe we should just vote on it ?  See which way the crowd is leaning



 

[wdleehi]

Maybe we should just vote on it ?  See which way the crowd is leaning



 

Poll:  Should we waste a lot of time debating this?

a:  Yes
b:  No
c:  Bring back Walker.

[Greenback]

I wonder what kind of a thread we would have if the Celtics record were 4-13 since Rondo left.    There would probably be all kinds of correlation/causation arguments about Rondo’s greatness.  The people that know Rondo is not top drawer material would be shouted down – “but look at our record, look at our record.”

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

So, should Rondo adapt to the new style of play or the Celtics go back to Rondo style of play?  Perhaps the best direction for the Celtics is to get badly needed rebounding and interior defense in exchange for Rondo’s services.

Some Rondo supporters must believe there IS causation or they wouldn’t be suggesting that Rondo adapt his style of play to fit in with the new and more effective group.   

Also, many people on here need to read the book:  “How to Lie with Statistics” by Darrell Huff.

[kozlodoev]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

  Yeah, ignoring the bulk of his games (including the most recent ones) is probably the best way to gauge how well someone is playing.

Is this conversation still about the 2010 playoffs?

[AB_Celtic]

Maybe we should just vote on it ?  See which way the crowd is leaning



 

Poll:  Should we waste a lot of time debating this?

a:  Yes
b:  No
c:  Bring back Walker.

d: Bring back Perk

[kozlodoev]

Maybe we should just vote on it ?  See which way the crowd is leaning



 

Poll:  Should we waste a lot of time debating this?

a:  Yes
b:  No
c:  Bring back Walker.

d: Bring back Perk

I want Waltah! I'm sure Tommy does, too!

[Celtics18]

I wonder what kind of a thread we would have if the Celtics record were 4-13 since Rondo left.    There would probably be all kinds of correlation/causation arguments about Rondo’s greatness.  The people that know Rondo is not top drawer material would be shouted down – “but look at our record, look at our record.”

Some Rondo supporters, try to argue why Rondo would fit with the team now.  That seems to be an admission that the team is playing a more desirable and effective style of basketball.  However, there is no evidence to believe that Rondo would change his bad habits.  His strengths do not appear to fit in with the new style of play; and his weaknesses do not allow the new and effective style of play.

So, should Rondo adapt to the new style of play or the Celtics go back to Rondo style of play?  Perhaps the best direction for the Celtics is to get badly needed rebounding and interior defense in exchange for Rondo’s services.

Some Rondo supporters must believe there IS causation or they wouldn’t be suggesting that Rondo adapt his style of play to fit in with the new and more effective group.   

Also, many people on here need to read the book:  “How to Lie with Statistics” by Darrell Huff.

Personally, I'd like to see a style of play that looks to push the pace at every opportunity when Rondo returns.  In the half court, I'd like to see a ball movement system like the one we've seen since Rondo's injury combined with a style that utilizes Rondo's strengths as a penetrator and shot creator.  I don't think those styles are mutually exclusive.  As a matter of fact, it's my belief that when we've been at our best offensively during Rondo's tenure is indeed when we've been able to mesh Rondo's strengths with a crisp, ball moving system of offense.

[SHAQATTACK]

a vote.....it's the only way to be sure....

[BballTim]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

  Yeah, ignoring the bulk of his games (including the most recent ones) is probably the best way to gauge how well someone is playing.

Is this conversation still about the 2010 playoffs?

  As far as I know.

[kozlodoev]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

  Yeah, ignoring the bulk of his games (including the most recent ones) is probably the best way to gauge how well someone is playing.

Is this conversation still about the 2010 playoffs?

  As far as I know.

Then I'm not sure how I'm ignoring the "most recent games". Rondo had a great series against Cleveland in the Eastern semis, was largely the same guy in other series.

[BballTim]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

  Yeah, ignoring the bulk of his games (including the most recent ones) is probably the best way to gauge how well someone is playing.

Is this conversation still about the 2010 playoffs?

  As far as I know.

Then I'm not sure how I'm ignoring the "most recent games". Rondo had a great series against Cleveland in the Eastern semis, was largely the same guy in other series.

  I don't know why you wouldn't consider ignoring the Cleveland series and pointing to his play to be anything other than ignoring "the most recent games". Maybe you're confused about the order of our opponents that year.

[Celtics18]

We lost 2010 because of poor rebounding, not because of Rondo...

  Claiming we lost a 7 game series (or a 4 point game) for one reason and one reason only is fairly nonsensical.

Yup, the 23 ORB we gave up in game 7 (and the average of 14.5 ORB in losses this series) are just nonsensical. If Rondo was just a little bit healthier, that would have just solved all our problems.

 

  Rondo had some kind of leg or back injury in the Orlando series. Before that he was averaging 17/6/11 and shot 50% or better in half his games. We won 11 of 14 playoff games up to that point. After that he went for 14/5/7 and shot 50% or better twice in 10 games. We went 4-6 in the playoffs after his injury. It had a fairly drastic effect on our play.

What you're showing is largely an artifact of a Cleveland series where he averaged 20 and 11.

Take the series out, and he's the same guy in the finals that he was in the first round against Miami (14 pts, 6 rebounds, 8-10 assists per game).

  Yeah, ignoring the bulk of his games (including the most recent ones) is probably the best way to gauge how well someone is playing.

Is this conversation still about the 2010 playoffs?

  As far as I know.

Then I'm not sure how I'm ignoring the "most recent games". Rondo had a great series against Cleveland in the Eastern semis, was largely the same guy in other series.

The playoff series against Cleveland in 2010 was in my opinion this team's biggest, most memorable, and most impressive playoff series win for this team since beating the Lakers in 2008.  For what that's worth. 

Thanks, Rondo.

[kozlodoev]

Then I'm not sure how I'm ignoring the "most recent games". Rondo had a great series against Cleveland in the Eastern semis, was largely the same guy in other series.

  I don't know why you wouldn't consider ignoring the Cleveland series and pointing to his play to be anything other than ignoring "the most recent games". Maybe you're confused about the order of our opponents that year.

I'm not "ignoring the Cleveland series". I'm pointing out that the norm for Rondo was something different from what happened in the Cleveland series.

Also, I suggest you check the order of opponents that year yourself (Miami, Cleveland, Orlando, LA).

[Spicoli]

Rondo is a lazy player and only plays hard when he wants to. I don't know about the rest of you, but i absolutely do not want to see the C's built around a player who only shows up half the time.