(Merged) Celtics better with/without Rondo debate

[SHAQATTACK]

who cares about wins ?...... long as Rondo makes highlight film with triple doubles 

[ssspence]

  So for whatever reason, the team was in a slump. You can see it in PP and KG and Terry's numbers for various months. They're no longer in that slump. So considering how well Green is playing and our main offensive players are all playing better we should be *better* than we were earlier this year. We're not. That's because we're missing our best player.

This is just getting ugly, Timmy. It just smells like blind denial all the way around: who the team was with Rondo, who they are without him, your total disregard for results, even who their best player is... the entire POV.

I hope they keep getting worse without Rondo 

[Shamrocker]

imagine a player who twists his ankle and hobbles around on the court until the next time out. They take his shoe off and tape up his ankle so he can run fine but put the wrong size shoe back on his foot. He can barely run in the too tight shoe but you keep telling him he doesn't need a different shoe because he's running a little bit faster than he was with the twisted ankle.

I think you're right. I am missing your point, because I really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

What the first part of your answer boils down to? Basically the Cs miss sizzle, even if it doesn't result in anything tangible.

So maybe we can try this a different, more productive way. Do you think Rondo can learn anything from how the Cs have been playing without him? If so, how do you see him taking that knowledge and applying it to improve his play and approach?

  First of all it's not about sizzle. I don't see why you can't get this. We didn't suck on offense all year long and suddenly start playing good when Rondo left. We started out playing very good offense (even with Green, who's playing very good now, playing much less consistently). We went from playing very well to playing poorly. Since Rondo was controlling the offense when we were playing very good on offense and he was still controlling the offense when it slumped it doesn't take a genius to figure out that something other than Rondo controlling the ball led to the slump.

  So for whatever reason, the team was in a slump. You can see it in PP and KG and Terry's numbers for various months. They're no longer in that slump. So considering how well Green is playing and our main offensive players are all playing better we should be *better* than we were earlier this year. We're not. That's because we're missing our best player.

  And it's probably a mix of Rondo, Doc and the other players all learning things based on how the team's played over the last month or so. I know that people here think that Rondo rules the team with an iron fist and oppresses his teammates but that's not the case. He's probably doing pretty much what Doc wants him to, and there's probably a lot of truth to what Danny and KG said about the team relying too much on Rondo.

Ha, a 43 game slump? That's epic.

[eugen]

who cares about wins ?...... long as Rondo makes highlight film with triple doubles

TP...Yes...we do not have to care about wins but to care when Rondo will sign with HARLEM team to make triple doubles

[Lightskinsmurf]

  So for whatever reason, the team was in a slump. You can see it in PP and KG and Terry's numbers for various months. They're no longer in that slump. So considering how well Green is playing and our main offensive players are all playing better we should be *better* than we were earlier this year. We're not. That's because we're missing our best player.

This is just getting ugly, Timmy. It just smells like blind denial all the way around: who the team was with Rondo, who they are without him, your total disregard for results, even who their best player is... the entire POV.

I hope they keep getting worse without Rondo 

Lol well said, TP.

[badshar]

Again, let's use the brain a bit and stop making ignorant and stupid arguments.

By the way, did you honestly just say Westbrook is better playmaker than Rondo?

I am ignorant and you are suddently "smart"...?! If you tell me that Rondo is beter than Westbrook, I do not know who is ignorant...

Being a better playmaker doesn't mean you are a better player.

Your posts repeatedly display your lack of knowledge.

I have lack of knowledge, and you are smarter . Cs continuing to win and be strong without Rondo, and you are making bla bla bla

So how far do you think they will go in the playoffs?

[gpap]

The more the Celtics play, the more it continues to amaze me how some can still make the argument that this team is not better without Rondo.

[CoachBo]

who cares about wins ?...... long as Rondo makes highlight film with triple doubles

Sad, isn't it?

[ben]

Is the team playing better lately?  Yes.  Did the team struggle when rondo was healthy this season?  Yes.  So what?!

I firmly believe the team is better with Rondo.  Rondo is a great player.  The only argument I want to make is despite not having Rondo, this team has an opportunity to win a Championship and should not settle for anything less.  Any team can improve.  But lets not make excuses and march towards Banner 18. 

go celtics.  With or with out rondo the celtics have great players.  Just because Rondo is not playing does not mean he is not supporting his team mates.  Bleed Green, lets go!

[CoachBo]

Is the team playing better lately?  Yes.  Did the team struggle when rondo was healthy this season?  Yes.  So what?!

I firmly believe the team is better with Rondo.  Rondo is a great player.  The only argument I want to make is despite not having Rondo, this team has an opportunity to win a Championship and should not settle for anything less.  Any team can improve.  But lets not make excuses and march towards Banner 18. 

go celtics.  With or with out rondo the celtics have great players.  Just because Rondo is not playing does not mean he is not supporting his team mates.  Bleed Green, lets go!

There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.

First, I appreciate a post with basketball logic - even though I completely disagree with your conclusion. I have no interest in building around Rondo - or even going forward with him next season - because his ball-controlling offensive game, not to mention his growing ambivalence toward defense, is ill-suited to the group of players.

We have two options: Dump this roster and rebuild from scratch around Rondo, or dump Rondo - unless, of course, you're satisfied with the 20-23 product or Rondo has a similar revelation and remakes his ball-stopping offensive game. The second alternative is FAR more reasonable, doable and attractive than the first, and here's why:

Rondo needs the ball in his hands to be effective but as the first half of the season evidenced, he lost his gauge on exactly how long is too long in his own hands. He is simply not a scorer, even though his mid-range jumpshot has improved, his foul shooting remains below average for his position.

Further, it is his defense - or his unwillingness to play same - that has fallen off the ends of the earth.

When he wants to play - when the cameras are rolling - Rondo can be an asset to anyone's team.

But it's simply irrefutable that the ball moves better on the offensive end without him. It's time to begin entertaining the notion that this group of players is just better with Bradley and Lee in the backcourt.

And defensively, the improvement is predictably documentable when you're not dealing with forced interior rotations because Rondo's turned his man loose. Again. It's just disingenuous to try to separate Rondo's injury and this team's improved performance. They are related - not because Rondo isn't talented, but because his game is a square peg in a round hole with the other players in Doc's rotation.

Rondo was the right guy at the right time with three premier scorers.

He is not the right guy to build this franchise around going forward. There will be value available for Rondo in the summer. Ainge needs to go get it and propel this rebuild on the fly forward.

[D.o.s.]

Championships without Rondo: 16.

Championships with Rondo: 1.


Clearly, he's a relative non-factor. 

[ben]

Is the team playing better lately?  Yes.  Did the team struggle when rondo was healthy this season?  Yes.  So what?!

I firmly believe the team is better with Rondo.  Rondo is a great player.  The only argument I want to make is despite not having Rondo, this team has an opportunity to win a Championship and should not settle for anything less.  Any team can improve.  But lets not make excuses and march towards Banner 18. 

go celtics.  With or with out rondo the celtics have great players.  Just because Rondo is not playing does not mean he is not supporting his team mates.  Bleed Green, lets go!

There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.

First, I appreciate a post with basketball logic - even though I completely disagree with your conclusion. I have no interest in building around Rondo - or even going forward with him next season - because his ball-controlling offensive game, not to mention his growing ambivalence toward defense, is ill-suited to the group of players.

We have two options: Dump this roster and rebuild from scratch around Rondo, or dump Rondo. The second alternative is FAR more reasonable, doable and attractive than the first, and here's why:


Rondo needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but he's simply not a scorer, even though his mid-range jumpshot has improved, his foul shooting remains below average for his position.

Further, it is his defense - or his unwillingness to play same - that has fallen off the ends of the earth.

When he wants to play - when the cameras are rolling - Rondo can be an asset to anyone's team.

But it's simply irrefutable that the ball moves better on the offensive end without him. It's time to begin entertaining the notion that this group of players is just better with Bradley and Lee in the backcourt.

And defensively, the improvement is predictably documentable when you're not dealing with forced interior rotations because Rondo's turned his man loose. Again.

Rondo was the right guy at the right time with three premier scorers.

He is not the right guy to build this franchise around going forward. There will be value available for Rondo in the summer. Ainge needs to go get it and propel this rebuild on the fly forward.

Oh please.  Now we have trade rondo threads after 40 games with a new team and a knee ready to explode?

What happened this season was so OBVIOUS.  Rondo had six new players on his team, and Doc let the team operate like Ray Allen was still on the roster.  I blame doc for not adjusting to the new team quicker, but you could see the rondo sets plays for Kg, PP, and ....   .....  terry?!  This was not efficient and we are finding simple plays with  ball movement through all players is working better (with some great team defense, boosted with Avery Bradley's return.)

Patience.  The Trade Rondo people will be surprised when Rondo comes back and our offensive strategy is completely different.  Rondo is the smartest player in the NBA and he will adjust to the Celtics new way to play.  Patience.  Patience. 

[Lightskinsmurf]

Is the team playing better lately?  Yes.  Did the team struggle when rondo was healthy this season?  Yes.  So what?!

I firmly believe the team is better with Rondo.  Rondo is a great player.  The only argument I want to make is despite not having Rondo, this team has an opportunity to win a Championship and should not settle for anything less.  Any team can improve.  But lets not make excuses and march towards Banner 18. 

go celtics.  With or with out rondo the celtics have great players.  Just because Rondo is not playing does not mean he is not supporting his team mates.  Bleed Green, lets go!

There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.

First, I appreciate a post with basketball logic - even though I completely disagree with your conclusion. I have no interest in building around Rondo - or even going forward with him next season - because his ball-controlling offensive game, not to mention his growing ambivalence toward defense, is ill-suited to the group of players.

We have two options: Dump this roster and rebuild from scratch around Rondo, or dump Rondo. The second alternative is FAR more reasonable, doable and attractive than the first, and here's why:


Rondo needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but he's simply not a scorer, even though his mid-range jumpshot has improved, his foul shooting remains below average for his position.

Further, it is his defense - or his unwillingness to play same - that has fallen off the ends of the earth.

When he wants to play - when the cameras are rolling - Rondo can be an asset to anyone's team.

But it's simply irrefutable that the ball moves better on the offensive end without him. It's time to begin entertaining the notion that this group of players is just better with Bradley and Lee in the backcourt.

And defensively, the improvement is predictably documentable when you're not dealing with forced interior rotations because Rondo's turned his man loose. Again.

Rondo was the right guy at the right time with three premier scorers.

He is not the right guy to build this franchise around going forward. There will be value available for Rondo in the summer. Ainge needs to go get it and propel this rebuild on the fly forward.

Oh please.  Now we have trade rondo threads after 40 games with a new team and a knee ready to explode?

What happened this season was so OBVIOUS.  Rondo had six new players on his team, and Doc let the team operate like Ray Allen was still on the roster.  I blame doc for not adjusting to the new team quicker, but you could see the rondo sets plays for Kg, PP, and ....   .....  terry?!  This was not efficient and we are finding simple plays with  ball movement through all players is working better (with some great team defense, boosted with Avery Bradley's return.)

Patience.  The Trade Rondo people will be surprised when Rondo comes back and our offensive strategy is completely different.  Rondo is the smartest player in the NBA and he will adjust to the Celtics new way to play.  Patience.  Patience.

I actually agree with alot of this. Alot of this falls on doc for sure.

[CoachBo]

Is the team playing better lately?  Yes.  Did the team struggle when rondo was healthy this season?  Yes.  So what?!

I firmly believe the team is better with Rondo.  Rondo is a great player.  The only argument I want to make is despite not having Rondo, this team has an opportunity to win a Championship and should not settle for anything less.  Any team can improve.  But lets not make excuses and march towards Banner 18. 

go celtics.  With or with out rondo the celtics have great players.  Just because Rondo is not playing does not mean he is not supporting his team mates.  Bleed Green, lets go!

There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.

First, I appreciate a post with basketball logic - even though I completely disagree with your conclusion. I have no interest in building around Rondo - or even going forward with him next season - because his ball-controlling offensive game, not to mention his growing ambivalence toward defense, is ill-suited to the group of players.

We have two options: Dump this roster and rebuild from scratch around Rondo, or dump Rondo. The second alternative is FAR more reasonable, doable and attractive than the first, and here's why:


Rondo needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but he's simply not a scorer, even though his mid-range jumpshot has improved, his foul shooting remains below average for his position.

Further, it is his defense - or his unwillingness to play same - that has fallen off the ends of the earth.

When he wants to play - when the cameras are rolling - Rondo can be an asset to anyone's team.

But it's simply irrefutable that the ball moves better on the offensive end without him. It's time to begin entertaining the notion that this group of players is just better with Bradley and Lee in the backcourt.

And defensively, the improvement is predictably documentable when you're not dealing with forced interior rotations because Rondo's turned his man loose. Again.

Rondo was the right guy at the right time with three premier scorers.

He is not the right guy to build this franchise around going forward. There will be value available for Rondo in the summer. Ainge needs to go get it and propel this rebuild on the fly forward.

Oh please.  Now we have trade rondo threads after 40 games with a new team and a knee ready to explode?

What happened this season was so OBVIOUS.  Rondo had six new players on his team, and Doc let the team operate like Ray Allen was still on the roster.  I blame doc for not adjusting to the new team quicker, but you could see the rondo sets plays for Kg, PP, and ....   .....  terry?!  This was not efficient and we are finding simple plays with  ball movement through all players is working better (with some great team defense, boosted with Avery Bradley's return.)

Patience.  The Trade Rondo people will be surprised when Rondo comes back and our offensive strategy is completely different.  Rondo is the smartest player in the NBA and he will adjust to the Celtics new way to play.  Patience.  Patience.

While that is a popular view with those who cannot imagine - or apparently enjoy - this Celtics team without their favorite player, I don't buy it.

At all.

Especially the nonsense that Rivers somehow ordered Rondo to pound the ball at the top of the key for 16 seconds every possession in search of an assist.

That is not remotely close to a legitimate explanation; it is an excuse from those desperate to defend their favorite player, as I see it.

It is difficult to envision a player of Rondo's documented petulance suddenly remaking his game when confronted with the evidence that it no longer fits with his teammates.

Perhaps I could buy a little the notion that he might try to display a tad of effort on the defensive end.

But turn the basketball loose and move it?

I am going to have to see it to believe it.

And I fervently hope that Rondo is in another uniform before he throws his next regular season pass. That is what's best for the evolution of the Boston Celtics.

[SHAQATTACK]

Is the team playing better lately?  Yes.  Did the team struggle when rondo was healthy this season?  Yes.  So what?!

I firmly believe the team is better with Rondo.  Rondo is a great player.  The only argument I want to make is despite not having Rondo, this team has an opportunity to win a Championship and should not settle for anything less.  Any team can improve.  But lets not make excuses and march towards Banner 18. 

go celtics.  With or with out rondo the celtics have great players.  Just because Rondo is not playing does not mean he is not supporting his team mates.  Bleed Green, lets go!

There's a huge difference between adding significant value to this collection of Celtics, and adding huge value to someone else's team.

Again, the issue isn't whether Rondo is a quality point guard. He is.

The issue is that the evidence is mounting that he is a poor fit with this current collection of Celtics. For those of you who focus on individuals rather than the Celtic franchise, be mad at Ainge. He's the one who assembled this group.

Rondo needs to be surrounded by big-time scorers to be at his most effective. Imagine him running the Heat.

He isn't surrounded by anything like that in Boston, like he once was. As Pierce, Garnett and Allen declined, so did Rondo's value to this franchise.

The evidence is growing: Rondo is no longer a good fit in Boston. Doesn't mean he has no value elsewhere; in fact, it means there's conceivably a match with another team in search of his kind of game.

Ainge can and should aggressively market him in the off-season. It's the best thing for Rondo, and the best thing for the Celtics.

See coachbo's post below yours for my explanation as to why trading Rondo would make sense and why a trade where Boston gets good return would be feasible.

I think there were a number of trades at the deadline involving the Hawks that would have made sense for Rondo.  Lou Williams and Jeff Teague straight up would have made a lot of sense if Atlanta wanted to keep Smith that would have been a good way to help entice him to stay.  A 3-way trade with Phoenix, Atlanta, and Boston where Boston essentially traded rondo, lee, terry, and bass for lou williams, teague, dudley, and beasley would have made a lot of sense for the 3 teams involved (dragic, gortat, and smith were also in the trade). 

I think this summer there will be options out there where Boston trades Rondo to a team for a lottery pick in the draft and some other pieces if there is someone Ainge really likes.  Orlando and New Orleans seem like places that might want a guy like Rondo to run their teams and they all have the salaries to make a draft day trade work, plus at least one lottery pick and/or recent lottery picks to trade.  Charlotte has Kemba Walker and 2 lottery picks, not to mention Gordon's salary.  I think a reasonable trade would be Gordon, Walker, and the Blazers pick for Rondo and Sullinger (or something like that). 

It is just too bad the Thunder don't have a need for Rondo as they have a lot of draft picks coming their way as a result of the Harden trade.

There will be plenty of trades out there that make sense for the acquiring team and where Boston still gets solid value back.  It won't be Rondo the player value, but it won't be chump change either.

@Coachbo Firstly, I completely understand your point, I just happen to disagree entirely. But I realize that some of the people here weren't arguing thee quality of Rondo, but rather his fit/role on this team. My point was more for those arguing that his he was overhyped and not a great point guard (although in hindsight I'd be better off leaving those people to argue amongst themselves).

No Rondo isn't surrounded by big time scorers, but he is surrounded by several quality scorers whose ability he can maximize by facilitating their individual strengths. As the team is currently constructed, they have very good pieces but few players who are going to be consistently outstanding. Rondo's particular skill set fits well with that team dynamic because he can help guys maximize their potential by getting the ball to them in the right spots and making it easier for them to succeed with the tools they have, but he can also still take over a game on his own when no one else is stepping up.

Yes he would benefit from playing with a team that has "big-time scorers", but those guys are dubbed big-time scorers because they have the ability to score without needing a guy like Rondo to get them the ball in the right spots. They can do it anywhere, any time, they just have that talent. Where Rondo can truly add value is by putting guys that don't have that kind of ability in the best position to succeed. Thats what we have seen from him in the past.

But hey, thats just my opnion I can't say that he wouldn't be better off on a team with elite scorers because we haven't seen him play with guys like that (caveat: early on in the first year/2 of the big 3 era he did have that talent around him but he wasn't running the show like he does now). What I can say is that we've seen him have tremendous success in the past with a similar cast of characters as the ones presently on the roster and I think so many things were going poorly early on this season that its unfair to characterize his fit with this team based on their early play. I think most everyone (except Bass) has improved as time has gone on.

@Celtics18 Personally i don't think I'd make any of those trades you've suggested, certainly not the Hawks trade or the one that involves the Suns as well, although I'll admit I would discuss Eric Gordon and a lottery pick and see what might work there. And I don't doubt that there would be several trades that could bring back decent value. But thats obviously because I have a very different view of Rondo's fit with the Celtics than you and Coachbo, so I probably value his ability here more than the two of you would given that you both see his style being more suited for another team.

As I said above I see Rondo as a guy who can make a team like the Celtics, that lacks the star power and fire power to take on the likes of the Heat and the Thunder, have the ability to win on any given night because of what he can do to help other guys play to their best. So while yes we could potentially move him for some quality pieces that would help us play in a different style that may suit our current group better, I just can't imagine giving him up for any offer that didn't blow my socks off. He has the potential to be the cornerstone for an organization for many years to come and with KG and PP certainly in the last years of their careers Rondo is going to be a guy I want to build around.

First, I appreciate a post with basketball logic - even though I completely disagree with your conclusion. I have no interest in building around Rondo - or even going forward with him next season - because his ball-controlling offensive game, not to mention his growing ambivalence toward defense, is ill-suited to the group of players.

We have two options: Dump this roster and rebuild from scratch around Rondo, or dump Rondo. The second alternative is FAR more reasonable, doable and attractive than the first, and here's why:


Rondo needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but he's simply not a scorer, even though his mid-range jumpshot has improved, his foul shooting remains below average for his position.

Further, it is his defense - or his unwillingness to play same - that has fallen off the ends of the earth.

When he wants to play - when the cameras are rolling - Rondo can be an asset to anyone's team.

But it's simply irrefutable that the ball moves better on the offensive end without him. It's time to begin entertaining the notion that this group of players is just better with Bradley and Lee in the backcourt.

And defensively, the improvement is predictably documentable when you're not dealing with forced interior rotations because Rondo's turned his man loose. Again.

Rondo was the right guy at the right time with three premier scorers.

He is not the right guy to build this franchise around going forward. There will be value available for Rondo in the summer. Ainge needs to go get it and propel this rebuild on the fly forward.

Oh please.  Now we have trade rondo threads after 40 games with a new team and a knee ready to explode?

What happened this season was so OBVIOUS.  Rondo had six new players on his team, and Doc let the team operate like Ray Allen was still on the roster.  I blame doc for not adjusting to the new team quicker, but you could see the rondo sets plays for Kg, PP, and ....   .....  terry?!  This was not efficient and we are finding simple plays with  ball movement through all players is working better (with some great team defense, boosted with Avery Bradley's return.)

Patience.  The Trade Rondo people will be surprised when Rondo comes back and our offensive strategy is completely different.  Rondo is the smartest player in the NBA and he will adjust to the Celtics new way to play.  Patience.  Patience.

I doubt it , Rondo is lazy and a poor shot.    Standing around pounding the seconds away is the dumbest thing I ever seen .  Docs fault for not benching him.