Author Topic: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy  (Read 12061 times)

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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2019, 01:09:26 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm not buying how the OT rules are 'unfair', given that over time W-L percentages for coin-toss winners under the current rules are so close to .500 overall and close to the overall road and home percentages.

In the same day, the coin-toss winners in two different games went 1-1.

Any change proposed right now would be a solution in search of a problem.
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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2019, 02:10:59 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'm not buying how the OT rules are 'unfair', given that over time W-L percentages for coin-toss winners under the current rules are so close to .500 overall and close to the overall road and home percentages.

In the same day, the coin-toss winners in two different games went 1-1.

Any change proposed right now would be a solution in search of a problem.

Yeah, I think it's less of an actual fairness issue and more of a fan perception / entertainment issue.

We tend to frame these big games as a battle between quarterbacks, but if you go to OT and the receiving team scores a TD on their first drive, the other QB never gets a chance to answer.

Of course, games are won and lost on both sides of the ball, and the defense gets to have a say in the outcome.  But that's not how the games are covered.
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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2019, 02:15:37 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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It's weird to me how people don't see the "unfairness" in tossing a coin for OT possession. Team on offense can afford to fail to score a touchdown and keep playing, but the defense can't afford to fail in stopping a touchdown. This clearly favors the team on offense. The fact that the benefit of this format hinges on a artificially ~randomized event makes the fortunes heading into a sudden death situation uneven.

I would rather the NFL adopt the old XFL thing where two dudes at opposite ends of the field run toward the ball in the middle (football equivalent of a jump ball). The guy who gets it wins the possession for his team. At least there is skill involved by a member of the teams. Not a flip of a coin, which has nothing to do with the game of football.

Defense needs to do its job to get the ball back. Or stop or limit them to FG range. Simple as that. You get the ball back from a turnover (or forcing quick 3-outs etc) and you are advantaged with the sudden death concept. Nothing unfair about that really, just do your job as a defense. I feel the pressure is on the first offense to not turn over the ball than to go for the kill.


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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2019, 02:24:25 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The NFL MVP didn't get the ball in overtime of a home playoff game.  That just seems like a problem.  Just as it would be a problem if the greatest QB in NFL history wouldn't have had the ball in overtime. 
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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2019, 02:51:57 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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How about a field goal shootout , kinda like the penalty kicks in soccer overtime?

It would be fun

Start from the 40 yard and keep increasing 5 yards ...until someone misses


Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #35 on: January 23, 2019, 03:21:18 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The Pats havent loss 3 coin flips in a row now

If Pats lost on Sunday without Brady getting a chance in OT

I bet many would change their stance (leave it the way it is)
Not even a little bit. A coin flip is as fair as it gets. It's 50/50 whether you get the decision on what to do with the ball.

Defense is part of the game too and if you lose the coin flip, the defense needs to do its job, the same way the offense has to do its job and score if the team won the coin toss. Or the same way the offense has to do their job if the defense holds off the competition. The same way the special teams have to do their job and get off a good kick if the offense doesn't score.

Where does fairness end.

"Oh, we lost the coin toss.That's not fair "
"Oh, we couldn't stop their offense from scoring a TD. We should have a chance to try to score too. That's not fair."
"Oh, we couldn't score, their defense is too good. That's not fair."

It's about doing your job. Do your job and you win, regardless of a coin flip.




Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #36 on: January 23, 2019, 03:21:47 PM »

Offline wiley

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How about a field goal shootout , kinda like the penalty kicks in soccer overtime?

It would be fun

Start from the 40 yard and keep increasing 5 yards ...until someone misses

Ouch..  Too much pressure and importance on the kickers, who only do one thing (in soccer the guys kicking penalties also played the game).

How about this:

--Sudden death where each offense gets the ball.
--Each offense starts on their own 40 yard line and tries to score.  Doesn't matter if it's a touchdown or field goal.  In OT each kind of score is equal. (for record books td is still td and field goal a field goal)
--First team not to score when the other team does score loses.
--A turnover on which a score is made wins the game, regardless of whether the other offense had a chance.  Otherwise, the team that recovered the turnover (fumble or interception), starts their offense from point of turnover (after tackle) or from their own 40, whichever is better.

Seems to me that would be pretty exciting sped up football in OT.   

Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #37 on: January 23, 2019, 03:31:32 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The NFL MVP didn't get the ball in overtime of a home playoff game.  That just seems like a problem.  Just as it would be a problem if the greatest QB in NFL history wouldn't have had the ball in overtime.
Who gives a crap about who has awards. It means absolutely squat in the discussion of how to make rules that are fair to an entire team.

And that's the problem. People think it's unfair to an entire team because one third of their team failed to do their job and stop the opposition. The entire team had a fair chance. That team's defense didn't do their job. Game over.


Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2019, 03:40:49 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The NFL MVP didn't get the ball in overtime of a home playoff game.  That just seems like a problem.  Just as it would be a problem if the greatest QB in NFL history wouldn't have had the ball in overtime.
Who gives a crap about who has awards. It means absolutely squat in the discussion of how to make rules that are fair to an entire team.

And that's the problem. People think it's unfair to an entire team because one third of their team failed to do their job and stop the opposition. The entire team had a fair chance. That team's defense didn't do their job. Game over.
I have to imagine if the situation was reversed and the Patriots lost because Brady was sitting on the sideline you might be looking at this differently. 

The NFL OT rules have always been inherently unfair, it is why they keep changing the rules of overtime, because they know it is the case. 
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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2019, 03:42:07 PM »

Offline ederson

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The Pats havent loss 3 coin flips in a row now

If Pats lost on Sunday without Brady getting a chance in OT

I bet many would change their stance (leave it the way it is)
Not even a little bit. A coin flip is as fair as it gets. It's 50/50 whether you get the decision on what to do with the ball.

Defense is part of the game too and if you lose the coin flip, the defense needs to do its job, the same way the offense has to do its job and score if the team won the coin toss. Or the same way the offense has to do their job if the defense holds off the competition. The same way the special teams have to do their job and get off a good kick if the offense doesn't score.

Where does fairness end.

"Oh, we lost the coin toss.That's not fair "
"Oh, we couldn't stop their offense from scoring a TD. We should have a chance to try to score too. That's not fair."
"Oh, we couldn't score, their defense is too good. That's not fair."

It's about doing your job. Do your job and you win, regardless of a coin flip.

So offense you think doesn't have an advantage? Seriously? If they do their job as you state it they win the game, if the defense does its job they stay alive. Of course it is not fair especially when it is decided by the coin toss.

This has nothing to do with the Patriots or any other team. That s the rule so nobody can complain

But the rule should change.

Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2019, 03:48:52 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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How about a field goal shootout , kinda like the penalty kicks in soccer overtime?

It would be fun

Start from the 40 yard and keep increasing 5 yards ...until someone misses

Ouch..  Too much pressure and importance on the kickers, who only do one thing (in soccer the guys kicking penalties also played the game).

How about this:

--Sudden death where each offense gets the ball.
--Each offense starts on their own 40 yard line and tries to score.  Doesn't matter if it's a touchdown or field goal.  In OT each kind of score is equal. (for record books td is still td and field goal a field goal)
--First team not to score when the other team does score loses.
--A turnover on which a score is made wins the game, regardless of whether the other offense had a chance.  Otherwise, the team that recovered the turnover (fumble or interception), starts their offense from point of turnover (after tackle) or from their own 40, whichever is better.

Seems to me that would be pretty exciting sped up football in OT.

That's a variation of a "Kansas City Tiebreaker".   College football uses a form of that, with each possession starting on the 25 yard line.   Many state high school associations use it, though usually starting at the 10, 15 or 20 yard line.

The CFL uses it, starting at the 35 yard line (because a punt can be used to score a single point).

No game clock is used for this, just a play clock.

One of the interesting ways to use this tiebreaker is to resolve standing ties.   My high school one year ended the season in a 4-way tie for our district top seed.    So we hosted a 4-team Kansas-City-Tiebreaker tournament where the 4 teams played two semifinals and then a title match using this format.   It was a pretty massive, epic prep football extravaganza, with fans from all four teams there.

The main complaint about this format is that, because it is a short field, it favors some types of offense over others.   A strong running game or short passing attack would thrive in it compared to a team whose strength is stretching the field with deep receivers.
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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2019, 03:53:34 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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The Pats havent loss 3 coin flips in a row now

If Pats lost on Sunday without Brady getting a chance in OT

I bet many would change their stance (leave it the way it is)
Not even a little bit. A coin flip is as fair as it gets. It's 50/50 whether you get the decision on what to do with the ball.

Defense is part of the game too and if you lose the coin flip, the defense needs to do its job, the same way the offense has to do its job and score if the team won the coin toss. Or the same way the offense has to do their job if the defense holds off the competition. The same way the special teams have to do their job and get off a good kick if the offense doesn't score.

Where does fairness end.

"Oh, we lost the coin toss.That's not fair "
"Oh, we couldn't stop their offense from scoring a TD. We should have a chance to try to score too. That's not fair."
"Oh, we couldn't score, their defense is too good. That's not fair."

It's about doing your job. Do your job and you win, regardless of a coin flip.

So offense you think doesn't have an advantage? Seriously? If they do their job as you state it they win the game, if the defense does its job they stay alive. Of course it is not fair especially when it is decided by the coin toss.

This has nothing to do with the Patriots or any other team. That s the rule so nobody can complain

But the rule should change.

Given that outcomes have proven to be pretty even for this -- i.e., the coin-toss winner hasn't really won these at a rate much above .500, I'm not sure the offense really has the great advantage you are imagining.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2019, 03:55:20 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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The NFL MVP didn't get the ball in overtime of a home playoff game.  That just seems like a problem.  Just as it would be a problem if the greatest QB in NFL history wouldn't have had the ball in overtime.
Who gives a crap about who has awards. It means absolutely squat in the discussion of how to make rules that are fair to an entire team.

And that's the problem. People think it's unfair to an entire team because one third of their team failed to do their job and stop the opposition. The entire team had a fair chance. That team's defense didn't do their job. Game over.
I have to imagine if the situation was reversed and the Patriots lost because Brady was sitting on the sideline you might be looking at this differently. 

The NFL OT rules have always been inherently unfair, it is why they keep changing the rules of overtime, because they know it is the case.
Well you would be wrong. Rules are rules and you play by the rules. I have been an avid sports fan and have suffered my share of losses that losing a game by the rules wouldn't bother me.

And they don't keep changing OT rules to make things fair.

In 1974 they created overtime.
In 2012 they changed from first score wins to its current rules.
In 2017 they made OT 10 minutes for player safety.

That's really the only overtime rule changes.

Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2019, 03:59:52 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Lol I feel like the OT controversy only stirs up when the Patriots benefit from it.

Otherwise, not a peep or sound be made. Nobody's applying that to the Saints/Rams game. They're too busy shadowing that non-call DPI which should have been called. Though there's nothing we can do about that matter other than complain to the league but they won't listen to a peep and move on. I do find it funny that three of the six officials officiating that Rams/Saints game have strong ties from Los Angeles.


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Re: NFL playoffs - Replay and OT controversy
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2019, 04:02:22 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I do find it funny that three of the six officials officiating that Rams/Saints game have strong ties from Los Angeles.
With the two closest refs, including the one 8 feet from the play, being 2 of the 3 LA based refs.