Author Topic: FIBA Basketball 2023  (Read 15251 times)

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Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #90 on: September 11, 2023, 02:16:31 AM »

Offline mig3zwo

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so why is there no "A-list" roster for the US in the world cup tournament? Is it bc teams won't allow players to go? Is it because the players themselves don't want to? Is it arrogance? Did they just underestimate it all? I'm actually curious...

Because the world WANTS to see the NBA elite compete and win! (and I say that as a german basketball fan.)
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Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #91 on: September 11, 2023, 05:11:54 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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so why is there no "A-list" roster for the US in the world cup tournament? Is it bc teams won't allow players to go? Is it because the players themselves don't want to? Is it arrogance? Did they just underestimate it all? I'm actually curious...

Because the world WANTS to see the NBA elite compete and win! (and I say that as a german basketball fan.)

I think it's a mix, but I think arrogance is the wrong word - I think I have a good idea of what you mean, though. It's more like there's an overflow of talent, so FIBA tournaments and the like are seen as a better spot for younger/less experienced players to travel, get some exposure playing against new players, etc. If you're Kevin Durant, you're probably not getting much out of it compared to the Olympics
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #92 on: September 11, 2023, 05:25:33 AM »

Offline ozgod

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so why is there no "A-list" roster for the US in the world cup tournament? Is it bc teams won't allow players to go? Is it because the players themselves don't want to? Is it arrogance? Did they just underestimate it all? I'm actually curious...

Because the world WANTS to see the NBA elite compete and win! (and I say that as a german basketball fan.)

USA Basketball can only select from players who make themselves available. The reasons why players would choose to make themselves unavailable range from a) they want to have a summer off; b) they have some injuries they are trying to get over, to preserve themselves for the coming NBA season (Jokic, Giannis); c) their club might have put pressure on them to not play (like Kristaps); or they don't see the World Cup as important enough to give up their summer; or e) they just don't care.

Having lived overseas in Sydney and London I found out how important representing your country is to non-US athletes and to fans - they see representing your country as the pinnacle. I observed how selections were made for Australian and English rugby and cricket teams, it was very clear to everyone - fans, players, clubs - that the national team was the ultimate. With soccer (including US soccer) they even have an international break in the Premier League and other national soccer competitions to accommodate international friendlies, so players can be released by clubs for selection. Even though players like Kane, Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, etc were all getting paid millions by their clubs those clubs would never stand in their way when it came to representing their countries (though there was always frustration when someone had to fly halfway across the globe to play a "meaningless" friendly and then get injured).

Here in the US, at least with basketball, it's different. Historically there's not really been that hierarchy where USA Basketball is at the top, and they have first dibs on players. Players play for franchises in a closed system, the franchises really don't have an obligation to release players. They have been doing so since 1994 - prior to that it was all college players. I feel that the desire to represent their country isn't universal among players so they don't always make themselves available, especially if they've done it already (like Curry, Cryrie, LeBum, etc). They are willing to do it for a major competition like the Olympics, but these FIBA tournaments are seen as Mickey Mouse tournaments, and by fans as well. Players and fans feel that the caliber of the NBA overall is higher than any of these FIBA tournaments, including the Olympics, so a lot of fans don't really care, and it probably translates to how the players feel. The world may want to see the best NBA players compete, but a lot of US fans don't. Poll people here and I would guess at least 75% would either not care or not want Celtics players to risk injury playing in a "meaningless" tournament. When Tatum was selected for the Olympics last year there was a lot of concern from folks here that he would injure himself and be unavailable for the coming NBA season. This season he probably just decided he wanted a break but will probably make himself available for the Olympics next year in Paris, because that's only a 12 team competition vs this one being a 32 team one with a lot of dead rubbers.

Obviously every player is different - some take it seriously and want to represent their country, like Melo and Durant did. Others could care less. Others see the NBA season as more important. And if they opt out there will be very little fan or franchise pushback. So the reality is that Team USA will always have a relatively new roster for each competition. In Colangelo's time he tried to require a 3 year commitment for selection, because he recognized that the US was at a disadvantage in terms of chemistry compared to these international teams that have consistency of selection and have been together for years, but then nobody put their hand up, so they scrapped it.

If you compare basketball to soccer, the other global sport we play, we're obviously not the best at soccer, there's many countries that produce better players and there are better leagues, so a competition like the World Cup is considered the pinnacle. So our team has plenty to prove in mixing it up with the world's best. But in basketball the NBA is considered to be the pinnacle of the sport, above the Olympics and FIBA. That's why we call the NBA champion a "world champion" (which Noah Lyles hates  :police:).
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #93 on: September 11, 2023, 07:28:31 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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They have been doing so since 1994

1992.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten to see Larry play next to Magic, one of the coolest sights ever.


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Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #94 on: September 11, 2023, 09:24:45 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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That's about as comprehensive a breakdown as you're going to get, I think. Very good post Oz.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #95 on: September 11, 2023, 09:37:44 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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Sources: LeBron James wants to represent Team USA at 2024 Paris Olympics and is spearheading group of future Hall of Famers – including Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant – prepared to commit.

https://theathletic.com/4849490/2023/09/11/lebron-james-2024-olympics-paris/

Quote
James has spoken to Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Jayson Tatum and Draymond Green, and they are all prepared to commit as well. Separately, Phoenix’s Devin Booker, Portland’s Damian Lillard, Sacramento’s De’Aaron Fox and Dallas’ Kyrie Irving also have serious interest in committing, league sources said.

James’ effort started well before the USA World Cup team, led by Anthony Edwards and Mikal Bridges, lost at the World Cup, and was not related to whether this summer’s team won or lost. While the American national team has struggled at the last two World Cups, the program has won four consecutive golds at the Olympics.


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Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #96 on: September 11, 2023, 10:40:40 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Our best  players are not on that team folks.   If our stars played we would wipe the floor with all those others teams.  Yes, the rest of the world has got better but our guys do not value FIBA like the Euros do.   If they did we would not loose.

The same is true of soccer to some degree, in the USA they never get the top choice of athletes, I mean they play in the NBA or NFL where as Europe has the pick of their athletes.  Can you imagine if guys like Nick Chub played soccer instead of football from a young age...

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #97 on: September 11, 2023, 11:44:43 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Our best  players are not on that team folks.   If our stars played we would wipe the floor with all those others teams.  Yes, the rest of the world has got better but our guys do not value FIBA like the Euros do.   If they did we would not loose.

The same is true of soccer to some degree, in the USA they never get the top choice of athletes, I mean they play in the NBA or NFL where as Europe has the pick of their athletes.  Can you imagine if guys like Nick Chub played soccer instead of football from a young age...

There's a middle ground here, I think. There's definitely something to be said that this iteration of Team USA was very underwhelming - to put it lightly - but it's also true that an American hasn't won the MVP award since 2018, the biggest prospect of the future is French, three-to-five of the best players in the league are from 'overseas', and so on.

Being able to draw from a pool of 330 million people is going to improve your odds of fielding an incredible team, against countries that can't, of course, but I don't know if the balance is going to stay that way for all that much longer.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #98 on: September 11, 2023, 11:52:33 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Sources: LeBron James wants to represent Team USA at 2024 Paris Olympics and is spearheading group of future Hall of Famers – including Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant – prepared to commit.

https://theathletic.com/4849490/2023/09/11/lebron-james-2024-olympics-paris/

Quote
James has spoken to Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Jayson Tatum and Draymond Green, and they are all prepared to commit as well. Separately, Phoenix’s Devin Booker, Portland’s Damian Lillard, Sacramento’s De’Aaron Fox and Dallas’ Kyrie Irving also have serious interest in committing, league sources said.

James’ effort started well before the USA World Cup team, led by Anthony Edwards and Mikal Bridges, lost at the World Cup, and was not related to whether this summer’s team won or lost. While the American national team has struggled at the last two World Cups, the program has won four consecutive golds at the Olympics.
Good. This year's team did not have one definite future HOFer, not even a 1st team all-NBA player.

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #99 on: September 11, 2023, 12:05:59 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Shams Charania
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Sources: LeBron James wants to represent Team USA at 2024 Paris Olympics and is spearheading group of future Hall of Famers – including Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant – prepared to commit.

https://theathletic.com/4849490/2023/09/11/lebron-james-2024-olympics-paris/

Quote
James has spoken to Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Jayson Tatum and Draymond Green, and they are all prepared to commit as well. Separately, Phoenix’s Devin Booker, Portland’s Damian Lillard, Sacramento’s De’Aaron Fox and Dallas’ Kyrie Irving also have serious interest in committing, league sources said.

James’ effort started well before the USA World Cup team, led by Anthony Edwards and Mikal Bridges, lost at the World Cup, and was not related to whether this summer’s team won or lost. While the American national team has struggled at the last two World Cups, the program has won four consecutive golds at the Olympics.
Good. This year's team did not have one definite future HOFer, not even a 1st team all-NBA player.

The crazy thing about the All-NBA / MVP voting is that a lot of them have non-USA citizenship.  Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, Doncic, SGA

Tatum's the only first-teamer left.

Second team adds Curry, Mitchell, Butler, Brown.

Still, I think we can build an unbeatable team.  I'm not sure that guys like Kyrie and Draymond are the answer though


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Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #100 on: September 11, 2023, 02:03:10 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Being able to draw from a pool of 330 million people is going to improve your odds of fielding an incredible team, against countries that can't, of course, but I don't know if the balance is going to stay that way for all that much longer.

You add Curry, Durant, Tatum,   and LeBron to that FIBA team and it would have made a big difference.  The guys we sent this year don't know how to win.

Here is a list of the top NBA players from last year.  Guys on the team USA FIBA team don't start until  29 best, 1-3 are not USA players

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nbas-top-50-players-in-2022-23-season-giannis-jokic-luka-battle-for-no-1-lebron-slips-out-of-top-10/

Until  the US NBA players feel FIBA mattered more, and they do not at the moment, this won't change as I see it.   But we in the USA tend to value the Olympics more.

My hats is off to Germany, they earned this win.   Happy for Theis!

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #101 on: September 11, 2023, 02:19:58 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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Being able to draw from a pool of 330 million people is going to improve your odds of fielding an incredible team, against countries that can't, of course, but I don't know if the balance is going to stay that way for all that much longer.

You add Curry, Durant, Tatum,   and LeBron to that FIBA team and it would have made a big difference.  The guys we sent this year don't know how to win.

Here is a list of the top NBA players from last year.  Guys on the team USA FIBA team don't start until  29 best, 1-3 are not USA players

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nbas-top-50-players-in-2022-23-season-giannis-jokic-luka-battle-for-no-1-lebron-slips-out-of-top-10/

Until  the US NBA players feel FIBA mattered more, and they do not at the moment, this won't change as I see it.   But we in the USA tend to value the Olympics more.

My hats is off to Germany, they earned this win.   Happy for Theis!
Those 4 guys start with AD at center, plus a bench of Mitchell, Brown, Butler ....not losing to anybody.

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #102 on: September 11, 2023, 04:44:13 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Shams Charania
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Sources: LeBron James wants to represent Team USA at 2024 Paris Olympics and is spearheading group of future Hall of Famers – including Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant – prepared to commit.

https://theathletic.com/4849490/2023/09/11/lebron-james-2024-olympics-paris/

Quote
James has spoken to Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, Anthony Davis, Jayson Tatum and Draymond Green, and they are all prepared to commit as well. Separately, Phoenix’s Devin Booker, Portland’s Damian Lillard, Sacramento’s De’Aaron Fox and Dallas’ Kyrie Irving also have serious interest in committing, league sources said.

James’ effort started well before the USA World Cup team, led by Anthony Edwards and Mikal Bridges, lost at the World Cup, and was not related to whether this summer’s team won or lost. While the American national team has struggled at the last two World Cups, the program has won four consecutive golds at the Olympics.

I'm glad I was wrong about the older guys playing again for team USA. Great to see Lebron already leading the charge to recruit everyone!

Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #103 on: September 12, 2023, 01:55:17 AM »

Offline mig3zwo

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but why do they value the olympics higher? It's a tournament within a tournament... buried beneath hundreds of other sports.
the world cup puts basketball into the spotlight. so why not value it more?

also... if team USA showed up with their elite, the world cup would get more attention and significance overall.
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Re: FIBA Basketball 2023
« Reply #104 on: September 12, 2023, 03:41:37 AM »

Offline ozgod

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They have been doing so since 1994

1992.  Otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten to see Larry play next to Magic, one of the coolest sights ever.

Oops...yup, 92, the year of the Dream Team.
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D