2013 CB Draft: Atlantic Division Press Conferences

[Roy H.]

Here is a good synopsis of Gordon Hayward's defense from one of the best blogs out there, SLC DUNK

I always marvel at Hayward's defense. I do so because he really doesn't have a bunch of crazy physical tools to become a great defender. He doesn't have the insane defensive potential of, say, Derrick Favors.

All Hayward does is fight. He fights through screens, he fights guys posting him up. And yes, he gets beat plenty of times. But by just fighting everything, he turns out to make things hard for opponents.

That said, I think sometimes Hayward's defense can be overrated. He rotates off his man standing at the corner 3 WAY too often. Part of is on Ty, for his game plan made infamous by Zach Lowe's fun analysis. But part of it is on Hayward. You're a smart player, so let's be smart about this: Don't rotate off the corner 3 to help. Especially when Derrick and Enes will be covering the paint.

But it's more than that, even. He's not really a lock-down defender. He can't simply go in and shut a guy down. Instead, Hayward pesters them and make things hard. That pestering is enough to make his opponents have overall down games (12.4 PER-allowed last year).

I hope that as Hayward becomes a leader of the team, he can instill some of this pestering in the other players. And that's what I will look for this year: how much his effort on defense is reflected in other players. Because I don't think Hayward will ever be a lock-down defender. He just doesn't have the tools. And that's okay ... because there are guys on the team who do have the tools (Favors and Kanter, as well as Burks on PG's).

I mostly hope that Hayward can inspire the other guys to put as much effort into it as he does.

It's the usual end of the year/looking at next year piece a lot of teams do, and I think it's a good game on him from good writers who watch him regularly.

That proves my point above:  some people equate "pesky" defense with "good" defense.

Hayward is a poor defender.  In his career, his DRtg has been 113, then 109, then 110.  His synergy numbers are mediocre, his defensive win shares are poor, etc., etc.

[Who]

G.Hayward is a solid defensive SG. He is average to slightly above average at everything. Put him on a team with a strong team defense and he'll shine.

As a SF, G.Hayward is a below par defender (and rebounder). Just doesn't have the size and brawn to compete with otherworldly athletes like the LeBrons, Melos, Durants and Rudy Gays of this world.

[indeedproceed]

Here is a good synopsis of Gordon Hayward's defense from one of the best blogs out there, SLC DUNK

I always marvel at Hayward's defense. I do so because he really doesn't have a bunch of crazy physical tools to become a great defender. He doesn't have the insane defensive potential of, say, Derrick Favors.

All Hayward does is fight. He fights through screens, he fights guys posting him up. And yes, he gets beat plenty of times. But by just fighting everything, he turns out to make things hard for opponents.

That said, I think sometimes Hayward's defense can be overrated. He rotates off his man standing at the corner 3 WAY too often. Part of is on Ty, for his game plan made infamous by Zach Lowe's fun analysis. But part of it is on Hayward. You're a smart player, so let's be smart about this: Don't rotate off the corner 3 to help. Especially when Derrick and Enes will be covering the paint.

But it's more than that, even. He's not really a lock-down defender. He can't simply go in and shut a guy down. Instead, Hayward pesters them and make things hard. That pestering is enough to make his opponents have overall down games (12.4 PER-allowed last year).

I hope that as Hayward becomes a leader of the team, he can instill some of this pestering in the other players. And that's what I will look for this year: how much his effort on defense is reflected in other players. Because I don't think Hayward will ever be a lock-down defender. He just doesn't have the tools. And that's okay ... because there are guys on the team who do have the tools (Favors and Kanter, as well as Burks on PG's).

I mostly hope that Hayward can inspire the other guys to put as much effort into it as he does.

It's the usual end of the year/looking at next year piece a lot of teams do, and I think it's a good game on him from good writers who watch him regularly.

That proves my point above:  some people equate "pesky" defense with "good" defense.

Hayward is a poor defender.  In his career, his DRtg has been 113, then 109, then 110.  His synergy numbers are mediocre, his defensive win shares are poor, etc., etc.

Actually it proves my point, that good defenders are not always represented by good metrics. You said his DTRG is poor, then his synergy numbers, then his defensive win shares, but what exactly was the 'etc'?

Because I think I only know of one more; Opp Production Per48. In both of those categories he's keeping opposing players below average PER.

[sofutomygaha]

I've never seen a press conference where the coaches stayed all night long yelling at each other from the podium long after the press had exited.

Janitor is in the back of room all like, "hey guys, can I at least start folding up these chairs? I've got a kid to get home to"

[Roy H.]

Here is a good synopsis of Gordon Hayward's defense from one of the best blogs out there, SLC DUNK

I always marvel at Hayward's defense. I do so because he really doesn't have a bunch of crazy physical tools to become a great defender. He doesn't have the insane defensive potential of, say, Derrick Favors.

All Hayward does is fight. He fights through screens, he fights guys posting him up. And yes, he gets beat plenty of times. But by just fighting everything, he turns out to make things hard for opponents.

That said, I think sometimes Hayward's defense can be overrated. He rotates off his man standing at the corner 3 WAY too often. Part of is on Ty, for his game plan made infamous by Zach Lowe's fun analysis. But part of it is on Hayward. You're a smart player, so let's be smart about this: Don't rotate off the corner 3 to help. Especially when Derrick and Enes will be covering the paint.

But it's more than that, even. He's not really a lock-down defender. He can't simply go in and shut a guy down. Instead, Hayward pesters them and make things hard. That pestering is enough to make his opponents have overall down games (12.4 PER-allowed last year).

I hope that as Hayward becomes a leader of the team, he can instill some of this pestering in the other players. And that's what I will look for this year: how much his effort on defense is reflected in other players. Because I don't think Hayward will ever be a lock-down defender. He just doesn't have the tools. And that's okay ... because there are guys on the team who do have the tools (Favors and Kanter, as well as Burks on PG's).

I mostly hope that Hayward can inspire the other guys to put as much effort into it as he does.

It's the usual end of the year/looking at next year piece a lot of teams do, and I think it's a good game on him from good writers who watch him regularly.

That proves my point above:  some people equate "pesky" defense with "good" defense.

Hayward is a poor defender.  In his career, his DRtg has been 113, then 109, then 110.  His synergy numbers are mediocre, his defensive win shares are poor, etc., etc.

Actually it proves my point, that good defenders are not always represented by good metrics. You said his DTRG is poor, then his synergy numbers, then his defensive win shares, but what exactly was the 'etc'?

Because I think I only know of one more; Opp Production Per48. In both of those categories he's keeping opposing players below average PER.

His eFG% is pretty poor, too.

Hayward has one of the worst DRtg's on his team, he allows opponents to shoot a relatively high percentage, he's mediocre in points allowed per possession, etc.  You point to Opponent's PER, but that factors in things such as an opponent's blocks, steals, personals and assists, none of which are really a factor of Hayward's (i.e., just because Hayward's opponents don't block a lot of his shots when he's on offense doesn't mean that he's playing good defense.)

[indeedproceed]

Here is a good synopsis of Gordon Hayward's defense from one of the best blogs out there, SLC DUNK

I always marvel at Hayward's defense. I do so because he really doesn't have a bunch of crazy physical tools to become a great defender. He doesn't have the insane defensive potential of, say, Derrick Favors.

All Hayward does is fight. He fights through screens, he fights guys posting him up. And yes, he gets beat plenty of times. But by just fighting everything, he turns out to make things hard for opponents.

That said, I think sometimes Hayward's defense can be overrated. He rotates off his man standing at the corner 3 WAY too often. Part of is on Ty, for his game plan made infamous by Zach Lowe's fun analysis. But part of it is on Hayward. You're a smart player, so let's be smart about this: Don't rotate off the corner 3 to help. Especially when Derrick and Enes will be covering the paint.

But it's more than that, even. He's not really a lock-down defender. He can't simply go in and shut a guy down. Instead, Hayward pesters them and make things hard. That pestering is enough to make his opponents have overall down games (12.4 PER-allowed last year).

I hope that as Hayward becomes a leader of the team, he can instill some of this pestering in the other players. And that's what I will look for this year: how much his effort on defense is reflected in other players. Because I don't think Hayward will ever be a lock-down defender. He just doesn't have the tools. And that's okay ... because there are guys on the team who do have the tools (Favors and Kanter, as well as Burks on PG's).

I mostly hope that Hayward can inspire the other guys to put as much effort into it as he does.

It's the usual end of the year/looking at next year piece a lot of teams do, and I think it's a good game on him from good writers who watch him regularly.

That proves my point above:  some people equate "pesky" defense with "good" defense.

Hayward is a poor defender.  In his career, his DRtg has been 113, then 109, then 110.  His synergy numbers are mediocre, his defensive win shares are poor, etc., etc.

Actually it proves my point, that good defenders are not always represented by good metrics. You said his DTRG is poor, then his synergy numbers, then his defensive win shares, but what exactly was the 'etc'?

Because I think I only know of one more; Opp Production Per48. In both of those categories he's keeping opposing players below average PER.

His eFG% is pretty poor, too.

Hayward has one of the worst DRtg's on his team, he allows opponents to shoot a relatively high percentage, he's mediocre in points allowed per possession, etc.  You point to Opponent's PER, but that factors in things such as an opponent's blocks, steals, personals and assists, none of which are really a factor of Hayward's (i.e., just because Hayward's opponents don't block a lot of his shots when he's on offense doesn't mean that he's playing good defense.)

Ah, but his point differential (what matters) is better:

Hayward Points Allowed Per 48 Mins: 19.4
Martin Points Allowed Per 48 Mins: 21.3

Then factor in Hayward scoring more points as a SG per 48 minutes than Martin, and maybe we can put this puppy to bed and stop pretending they're equally conducive to team success.

[Roy H.]

... and maybe we can put this puppy to bed and stop pretending they're equally conducive to team success.

I thought we were arguing defense, not how "conducive to team success" they are.  However, the pressure Martin puts on a defense with his ability to get to the hoop seems to be a pretty important skill.

As for the amount of points they allow opponents to score over 48 minutes, though, we're talking what, approximately one point per 30 minutes?  Martin holds his man to a lower FG%, eFG%, has a better DRtg, and allows fewer points per possession, but he might give up one extra point in 30 minutes?

Yeah, I'd call that Hayward being equal at best.  It seems weird for THE IndeedProceed to be arguing that points scored is "what matters", no matter how many shots / possessions it takes to score those points, but like I said, I'm happy to concede that Hayward's defense -- as shown through his defensive production -- has been equal at best.

[indeedproceed]

Yeah, I'd call that Hayward being equal at best.  It seems weird for THE IndeedProceed to be arguing that points scored is "what matters", no matter how many shots / possessions it takes to score those points, but like I said, I'm happy to concede that Hayward's defense -- as shown through his defensive production -- has been equal at best.

It seems weird for THE Roy Hobbs to be unwilling to allow IndeedProceed to have the last word on a relatively small point in a made up fantasy basketball game he isn't even playing in.

HAHA just kidding!*

*: And so my tone isn't mistaken, I'm giving Roy crap in a good natured fashion meant to encourage more of the same high-quality verbal sparring we've seen thusfar. I don't actually think he's out to get me. (Even though he probably is.)**

**: Again, this was a joke. It was joke within a joke.

[pearljammer10]

... and maybe we can put this puppy to bed and stop pretending they're equally conducive to team success.

I thought we were arguing defense, not how "conducive to team success" they are.  However, the pressure Martin puts on a defense with his ability to get to the hoop seems to be a pretty important skill.

As for the amount of points they allow opponents to score over 48 minutes, though, we're talking what, approximately one point per 30 minutes?  Martin holds his man to a lower FG%, eFG%, has a better DRtg, and allows fewer points per possession, but he might give up one extra point in 30 minutes?

Yeah, I'd call that Hayward being equal at best.  It seems weird for THE IndeedProceed to be arguing that points scored is "what matters", no matter how many shots / possessions it takes to score those points, but like I said, I'm happy to concede that Hayward's defense -- as shown through his defensive production -- has been equal at best.

Haywards defense is certainly equal at best to Martin but Martin is a far superior offensive player. His role changed last year to the 6th man slot and he thrived in his role. But we are talking about a guy who for 5 straight years scored 20+ points a game.

As far as Hayward being more intricate to a teams success than Martin I dont see that argument either. In his three seasons, Hayward has barely sniffed an above 500 record in two of them and had one losing season, only making one playoffs once and bouncing out in the first round.
Martin has played seven of his nine seasons playing above .500 ball, making the playoffs three of those times while going to the second round before his teams second best player was injured.

[rondoallaturca]

His eFG% is pretty poor, too.

Hayward has one of the worst DRtg's on his team, he allows opponents to shoot a relatively high percentage, he's mediocre in points allowed per possession, etc.  You point to Opponent's PER, but that factors in things such as an opponent's blocks, steals, personals and assists, none of which are really a factor of Hayward's (i.e., just because Hayward's opponents don't block a lot of his shots when he's on offense doesn't mean that he's playing good defense.)

If you disregard PER because it factors in things such as blocks, steals, etc., then you need to disregard DRtg because it does the same thing. And you still have yet to address:

However, do you not agree that Martin's top 4 defensive supporting cast had a lot to do with boosting his numbers significantly from his career averages? To put it in perspective, Ray Allen's DRtg significantly improved starting the season he was traded to Boston. This season in Miami, Allen also put up a 107 DRtg as well as slightly better Synergy numbers. Would you also call Ray Allen a better defender than Gordon Hayward?

[Roy H.]

His eFG% is pretty poor, too.

Hayward has one of the worst DRtg's on his team, he allows opponents to shoot a relatively high percentage, he's mediocre in points allowed per possession, etc.  You point to Opponent's PER, but that factors in things such as an opponent's blocks, steals, personals and assists, none of which are really a factor of Hayward's (i.e., just because Hayward's opponents don't block a lot of his shots when he's on offense doesn't mean that he's playing good defense.)

If you disregard PER because it factors in things such as blocks, steals, etc., then you need to disregard DRtg because it does the same thing... 

I think you may be confused.

DRtg includes blocks and steals of the defensive player in question.

Opponents' PER includes the blocks, steals, etc. of the opposing offensive player. In other words, if Hayward avoids turning the ball over on offense, his Opponents PER goes down, despite this having nothing to do with Hayeatd's defense.

[rondoallaturca]

So are you saying you think blocks, steals, and rebounds do have something to do with a player's defense? Furthermore, do you not agree that using ESTIMATED turnovers and field goal misses makes DRtg a very unreliable stat?

[Roy H.]

So are you saying you think blocks, steals, and rebounds do have something to do with a player's defense? Furthermore, do you not agree that using ESTIMATED turnovers and field goal misses makes DRtg a very unreliable stat?

Blocks, steals, and rebounding are a factor you look at, of course. They're not all you look at, of course. You need to assess other factors, which I have noted numerous times. Similarly, DRtg is only a tool, which should be used in conjunction with other tools.

When all such tools say the same thing, it is a good sign that the conclusion reached is accurate.

[rondoallaturca]

But that's not true. IP already pointed out opponent PER as a stat Hayward as an upper hand in, and opponent PER is only as accurate as other stats you're using.

And since you stress that "you need to assess other factors", why do you keep dodging the team factor? Kevin Martin was clearly on a superior defensive team last year, and his defensive numbers were significantly better than his career numbers. Again, what I want to know is if you think Ray Allen is a better defender than Gordon Hayward? It's the exact same situation.

[KCattheStripe]