Author Topic: Lets Hammer out our own CBA  (Read 11173 times)

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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2011, 05:05:58 PM »

Offline Chris

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San Antonio pretty much dispels much of this seeing as how it is a small market with a lot of success.  

And on the other side you have the Clippers and Warriors that are in two of the largest markets and are just consistently terrible.

Basketball is mostly about management.  If you get a good management team in place you will do well, if you don't you won't.

San Antonio is the exception that proves the rule IMO.  They had all of their success because they had arguably the best player in the league for much of the last decade, and even they, over the last few years, have been struggling to stay below the luxury tax line.  

As for the Clippers, while they are technically in a large market, they are an ugly stepsister team, much like the Nets, and therefore are not able to take advantage of the market size, because the fans are not paying to see them.  I would argue that they would actually be better off in a smaller city, where they had a monopoly on the fans.

Plus, the Clippers are one of the few teams that do what people are blaming other teams for not doing.  The Clippers don't overpay.  Yes, everyone makes mistakes on individual players, but the Clippers always stay within their means, because Sterling always wants to make money...and that is why they are the worst franchise in professional sports.

As for the Warriors, well, they have made terrible decisions.  And that happens.  But that, IMO is not an argument against a hard cap.  
I believe Salt Lake City is the smallest market in the league and it has done quite well for itself.  

Basketball is about management.  That really is all there is to it.

Yeah uh, how many titles have the Jazz won again?

IMO the Jazz are the best example of why the system doesn't work.  They have had a superstar, and several other very good players over the last few years, and because they were so afraid of the luxury tax, they have spent the last few trading deadlines trying to sell off quality rotation players that could have helped them go deeper in the playoffs, in order to stay under the tax line.

That, to me, is terrible for the game of basketball and a GREAT reason why the system is incredibly flawed.  

Champions should be determined based on what happens on the court, not on how big the owners wallet is.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2011, 05:41:35 PM »

Offline Moranis

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San Antonio pretty much dispels much of this seeing as how it is a small market with a lot of success.  

And on the other side you have the Clippers and Warriors that are in two of the largest markets and are just consistently terrible.

Basketball is mostly about management.  If you get a good management team in place you will do well, if you don't you won't.

San Antonio is the exception that proves the rule IMO.  They had all of their success because they had arguably the best player in the league for much of the last decade, and even they, over the last few years, have been struggling to stay below the luxury tax line.  

As for the Clippers, while they are technically in a large market, they are an ugly stepsister team, much like the Nets, and therefore are not able to take advantage of the market size, because the fans are not paying to see them.  I would argue that they would actually be better off in a smaller city, where they had a monopoly on the fans.

Plus, the Clippers are one of the few teams that do what people are blaming other teams for not doing.  The Clippers don't overpay.  Yes, everyone makes mistakes on individual players, but the Clippers always stay within their means, because Sterling always wants to make money...and that is why they are the worst franchise in professional sports.

As for the Warriors, well, they have made terrible decisions.  And that happens.  But that, IMO is not an argument against a hard cap.  
I believe Salt Lake City is the smallest market in the league and it has done quite well for itself.  

Basketball is about management.  That really is all there is to it.

Yeah uh, how many titles have the Jazz won again?

IMO the Jazz are the best example of why the system doesn't work.  They have had a superstar, and several other very good players over the last few years, and because they were so afraid of the luxury tax, they have spent the last few trading deadlines trying to sell off quality rotation players that could have helped them go deeper in the playoffs, in order to stay under the tax line.

That, to me, is terrible for the game of basketball and a GREAT reason why the system is incredibly flawed.  

Champions should be determined based on what happens on the court, not on how big the owners wallet is.
If by last few you mean one time in 2010 when they traded Brewer for a 1st rounder, then you are correct. The last mid-season trade before that, the Jazz actually acquired Korver for Giricek and a 1st in 2007. 

Trading Williams this year had nothing to do with luxury tax concerns (and frankly, Harris, Favors, Kanter, and a still yet as picked 2012 first and 2014 and 16 seconds).  Even letting Matthews go last summer wasn't a luxury tax issue, it was a massively overpriced contract (at least in the Jazz's eyes) for a bench player.  Boozer left on his own accord, but again it wasn't for luxury tax reasons.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2011, 05:45:12 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Moranis I think you're completely wrong on this. The Jazz had Boozer/Williams as a solid core, they just needed to add another high level player to compete for a title.

They never did that, they never took that risk or even tried to. That is in large part due to never wanting to be a luxury tax payer.

Wasted a chance at a title with Deron Williams.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2011, 07:52:17 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Moranis I think you're completely wrong on this. The Jazz had Boozer/Williams as a solid core, they just needed to add another high level player to compete for a title.

They never did that, they never took that risk or even tried to. That is in large part due to never wanting to be a luxury tax payer.

Wasted a chance at a title with Deron Williams.
I take it you don't believe Big Al is that type of player.   ;)

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2011, 09:25:26 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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San Antonio pretty much dispels much of this seeing as how it is a small market with a lot of success. 

And on the other side you have the Clippers and Warriors that are in two of the largest markets and are just consistently terrible.

Basketball is mostly about management.  If you get a good management team in place you will do well, if you don't you won't.

San Antonio is the exception that proves the rule IMO.  They had all of their success because they had arguably the best player in the league for much of the last decade, and even they, over the last few years, have been struggling to stay below the luxury tax line. 

As for the Clippers, while they are technically in a large market, they are an ugly stepsister team, much like the Nets, and therefore are not able to take advantage of the market size, because the fans are not paying to see them.  I would argue that they would actually be better off in a smaller city, where they had a monopoly on the fans.

Plus, the Clippers are one of the few teams that do what people are blaming other teams for not doing.  The Clippers don't overpay.  Yes, everyone makes mistakes on individual players, but the Clippers always stay within their means, because Sterling always wants to make money...and that is why they are the worst franchise in professional sports.

As for the Warriors, well, they have made terrible decisions.  And that happens.  But that, IMO is not an argument against a hard cap. 
I believe Salt Lake City is the smallest market in the league and it has done quite well for itself. 

Basketball is about management.  That really is all there is to it.

Yeah uh, how many titles have the Jazz won again?

IMO the Jazz are the best example of why the system doesn't work.  They have had a superstar, and several other very good players over the last few years, and because they were so afraid of the luxury tax, they have spent the last few trading deadlines trying to sell off quality rotation players that could have helped them go deeper in the playoffs, in order to stay under the tax line.

That, to me, is terrible for the game of basketball and a GREAT reason why the system is incredibly flawed. 

Champions should be determined based on what happens on the court, not on how big the owners wallet is.
If by last few you mean one time in 2010 when they traded Brewer for a 1st rounder, then you are correct. The last mid-season trade before that, the Jazz actually acquired Korver for Giricek and a 1st in 2007. 

Trading Williams this year had nothing to do with luxury tax concerns (and frankly, Harris, Favors, Kanter, and a still yet as picked 2012 first and 2014 and 16 seconds).  Even letting Matthews go last summer wasn't a luxury tax issue, it was a massively overpriced contract (at least in the Jazz's eyes) for a bench player.  Boozer left on his own accord, but again it wasn't for luxury tax reasons.

Don't forget, they also shipped off Eric Maynor (a promising backup point guard, better than any they have now) to the Thunder for nothing.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2011, 09:37:50 PM »

Offline Who

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San Antonio pretty much dispels much of this seeing as how it is a small market with a lot of success.  

And on the other side you have the Clippers and Warriors that are in two of the largest markets and are just consistently terrible.

Basketball is mostly about management.  If you get a good management team in place you will do well, if you don't you won't.
Fully agree

A lot of this complaining is coming from team's who (1) don't understand how to build a Championship caliber club, and, (2) who don't understand what it takes to win in this league, and, (3) don't hold their own franchise (ownership / front office / coaching staff / playing staff) accountable for it's inability to win.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2011, 09:59:44 PM »

Offline CaptainJackLee

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I don't like a hard-cap because team-player continuity is very valuable from a business perspective and also in terms of the product on the floor. I don't want to see teams losing their young, up'n'coming, franchise player due to salary cap limitations. Planning a 3 or 4 years salary window for a #1 draft pick may be feasible but what about the Arenas and Grangers of the world - guys who erupt to stardom out of nowhere. With a hard-cap, only lucky teams would be able to retain those players. Everybody recognizes this is bad - that's why the "Arenas provision" was added to the current CBA. (and I, for one, don't believe that the teams would behave rationally - as the players union fears - and decimate the NBA middle-class by offering multi-year contracts only to star players in order to leave room for future eventualities. That's a great display of faith in the market efficiency hypothesis but in the real world it wouldn't work - maybe if GMs had their jobs for life. Players don't want a hard cap because they believe it'd lead to an environment where only All-NBA players would have access to guaranteed contracts but I suspect their fears are unwarranted. GMs would still make the same short-sighted decisions they make now). A hard-cap would also make the draft less important and free-agency more important - and the draft is the biggest factor for competitive balance. The prohibition of multi-year guaranteed contracts could solve this, but it would create bigger problems. I oppose the prohibition of long-term fixed wages for a few reasons:

- as the paper Moral hazard in long-term guaranteed contracts: theory andevidence from the NBA by Arup Sen, J. Bradford Rice proves, teams already factor the "contract year effect" in their calculations. As the authors put it:
Quote
We conclude by answering the question that was put forth at the start of this paper- are teams being fooled repeatedly and is this an equilibrium of this market? The answer to that question is quite simply, no.
This suggests guaranteed deals don't produce inefficiencies (when considered league-wide, of course. Eddy Curry or Mark Blount are frequently mentioned when this issue is discussed but Rondo or Perkins are more rarely named. Or, on another note, Big Baby Davis: I'm not sure if having a league of guys always on their contract year would actually improve the product on the floor. I'm pretty sure that the pace of the game would rise rather and the FG% decline quite a bit).

- To me, that removes the main rationale to prohibit multi-year guaranteed contracts. There are two strong reasons that IMO suggest they should remain in place: As I've written in the preamble, I'd like to keep an environment where teams are punished/rewarded by their decisions. Prohibiting non-guaranteed contracts would remove the moral hazard for teams. I'd like to keep a system that rewards/punishes teams for good/bad decisions. Slightly less than now - so I'd like to see a reduction in the length of contracts (1 year) and more flexible injury exception rules.

- Secondly, there's a reason why guaranteed deals (with fixed wages or via huge rescission clauses)are so common amongst highly paid employees in every field of activity: because risk aversion exists and workers are willing to make wage concessions in exchange for security. Which allows teams to hire at cheaper prices. If LeBron James demands a $100 million/5 years contract, he'd demand a lot more than $20 millions for a 1 year contract. Of course, one could say that in any case Lebron couldn't get a better contract anywhere. However, if that was true, he'd just be paid the minimum salary - or at most an amount that would prevent him from taking his talents to the Manzanares' margins (that's a river in Madrid) or the Mediterranean shore. Someone point out correctly that the NBA itself isn't a free-market; unfortunately for NBA owners, it operates within a free-market environment (more or less). A CBA combining a salary cap, max contracts limits and a prohibition of long-term fixed wages would severely penalize the earning potential of star players. I don't think such an equilibrium would be sustainable in the long-run, the market would self correct. I could see this working in, say, a dominant soccer league (a NBA for soccer, a world soccer league), but not in a sport like basketball (the impact of high talent is disproportionately large) . The gap between the free-market value of superstars and their wages is already large, it can't be overstretched much more. By getting rid of their ability to pay smaller salaries in exchange for security, NBA teams would be self-imposing themselves a dangerous limitation.


Therefore, I say no to a hard-cap. And a hard-cap is a hard-cap is a hard-cap. A hard-cap with a single exception is called a soft-cap. A soft-cap with a hard-cap at the current luxury tax threshold, as I've also read over here, is a hard-cap - just like the "flex cap" the league proposed is a hard-cap with a fancy name.

I favor keeping in place the current luxury tax system but making it a tiered system that penalizes high-spenders - making it costlier and costlier for teams to go over the cap. Say, 2/1 for the first $10 millions over the cap, 4/1 for the next $10M and so on. At some point, a hard-cap would exist due to budgetary restraints - and with an apt revenue-sharing system and a reduction on exceptions (get rid of the LLE and non-Bird exceptions, make the MLE a bi-annual exception), it'd be pretty close for every team. It's the less distortionary solution but teams would still be able to take a hit for a year or two for the purpose of keeping a franchise player or a title team together if they wished so.


As for the BRI split:
In their last proposal, the owners offered a share of $2 billion/year for the players. The players naturally rejected it as it'd leave them out of future revenue growth (which makes a lot of sense if the owners explanations for the growth in non-players salaries expenses - revenue generating investments - is true). At the current BRI levels, $2 billion amounts to 50% of it. This should produce enough savings to cover the losses the owners are claiming. So, my proposal would be a tiered revenue split, using the owners proposal as the starting point:
- the first $4 billions of BRI would be split 50/50
- the rest of the BRI would be split 65% for the players, 35% for the owners. 

This is great for the owners as gives them enough money to cover those current rigid (and slightly mysterious)costs that are making them lose money. Plus, it gives them control - the will know the price in players salaries of future revenue and, as the ones in charge of revenue, they can make decisions based on that. They'll always be interested in maximizing tv rights fees, but those other revenue generating costs Stern talks about - speculating, an expensive marketing effort, may not be worth it. It's up to them.

For the players it's a gamble that ties their fortunes to a league revenue growth. But that's only fair considering the quality of their work is the ultimate factor for the league's success and they'd be putting their money where their mouth is.

I'd also keep an escrow system that would keep the % of the BRI going to the players under 60% in any given year.

As for competitive balance:
- I favor an environment that assures equality of opportunities, not of results. I don't want a league filled with 40 wins teams. I think great teams (including dynasties) are what puts the NBA on another level. What would be so great about a New Orleans vs. Atlanta finals this last month? The NBA needs excellent teams - and being a zero sum game, it implies having mediocre teams. What is needed is a system that allows every team, regardless of location, to be excellent. And the main tool for that should be a robust revenue sharing system. My proposal would be to follow the BRI split: for the first $4 billion dollars, teams would share 50% of the BRI they individually generate, after that, 60%. Luxury tax would be distributed 100%.

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2011, 10:08:50 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Moranis I think you're completely wrong on this. The Jazz had Boozer/Williams as a solid core, they just needed to add another high level player to compete for a title.

They never did that, they never took that risk or even tried to. That is in large part due to never wanting to be a luxury tax payer.

Wasted a chance at a title with Deron Williams.
Boozer left on his own.  What were the Jazz supposed to do?  They turned the Boozer trade exception into Al Jefferson.  

Williams got his coach fired and then pretty much said he wasn't going to re-sign so the Jazz traded him.  Again what were they supposed to do?
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2011, 10:15:58 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Since its Lockout Season.

What would you like to see in the new CBA?

For me, i would like to see a NFL like structure which allows teams to htink about drafting and developing players rather than have big time free agent aquisitions.
-Hard Cap
-Non-Guaranteed Contracts
-Franchise Tag
-NBADL Minor League put into full use.

Any other ideas?


How about....no more Stern?

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2011, 01:09:56 AM »

Offline mgent

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What's wrong with the way it is now?

The NBA is a league of haves and have-nots.  Not all of the "haves" are big market teams, but small market "haves" can very quickly become "have-nots" when their star players leave for nothing, or force a trade.  Small market teams are faced with a choice between spending beyond their means to compete or not spending and never making it past the first round.  It's too easy for players to work hard to land their first big contract and then take it easy after they've been paid; other players suffer injuries that severely limit their productivity, making their contracts dead weight.  Yet since the contracts are guaranteed, their teams are saddled with the dead weight.

I could go on. 
That's impossible to fix though, and doesn't really have anything to do with the CBA.  How are you gonna make players play for teams they don't want to play for?  The big markets have more people watching, it's only logical they're gonna attract more players. 

Also how many players outside of Mark Blount really give up after they get money?
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2011, 01:37:50 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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What's wrong with the way it is now?

The NBA is a league of haves and have-nots.  Not all of the "haves" are big market teams, but small market "haves" can very quickly become "have-nots" when their star players leave for nothing, or force a trade.  Small market teams are faced with a choice between spending beyond their means to compete or not spending and never making it past the first round.  It's too easy for players to work hard to land their first big contract and then take it easy after they've been paid; other players suffer injuries that severely limit their productivity, making their contracts dead weight.  Yet since the contracts are guaranteed, their teams are saddled with the dead weight.

I could go on. 
That's impossible to fix though, and doesn't really have anything to do with the CBA.  How are you gonna make players play for teams they don't want to play for?  The big markets have more people watching, it's only logical they're gonna attract more players. 

Also how many players outside of Mark Blount really give up after they get money?

Plenty of players perform far better in contract years than the rest of their contracts.

Also, you can't make players join teams they don't like, but you can limit the spending power of big market clubs, thereby limiting the number of teams a free agent can sign with for their fair market value.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2011, 01:44:56 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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I don't like a hard-cap because team-player continuity is very valuable from a business perspective and also in terms of the product on the floor. I don't want to see teams losing their young, up'n'coming, franchise player due to salary cap limitations.

See, I disagree that this is necessarily what would happen, especially if you empower teams with the ability to give their own free agents more money and longer contracts.  It may force teams to not hold onto lower tier players who want to make big money elsewhere (.e.g Glen Davis / Tony Allen types).  However, in a hard-cap market, those players would stand to make less money anyway.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2011, 10:31:40 AM »

Offline Moranis

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What's wrong with the way it is now?

The NBA is a league of haves and have-nots.  Not all of the "haves" are big market teams, but small market "haves" can very quickly become "have-nots" when their star players leave for nothing, or force a trade.  Small market teams are faced with a choice between spending beyond their means to compete or not spending and never making it past the first round.  It's too easy for players to work hard to land their first big contract and then take it easy after they've been paid; other players suffer injuries that severely limit their productivity, making their contracts dead weight.  Yet since the contracts are guaranteed, their teams are saddled with the dead weight.

I could go on. 
That's impossible to fix though, and doesn't really have anything to do with the CBA.  How are you gonna make players play for teams they don't want to play for?  The big markets have more people watching, it's only logical they're gonna attract more players. 

Also how many players outside of Mark Blount really give up after they get money?

Plenty of players perform far better in contract years than the rest of their contracts.

Also, you can't make players join teams they don't like, but you can limit the spending power of big market clubs, thereby limiting the number of teams a free agent can sign with for their fair market value.
The problem is it isn't only about the money for many of the top tier players.  Bosh, Wade, and James all took far less money to play together in Miami then they could have received.  Bosh didn't want to stay in Toronto and he refused to join James in Cleveland because they are not Miami. 

The reality is under any system, hard cap, soft cap, or no cap, certain teams are always going to be able to draw players and certain teams will be lucky to hold onto the player they draft.  A 25 year old in his prime will always choose Miami over Cleveland and no system in the world is going to change that.
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Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2011, 05:11:04 PM »

Offline mgent

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What's wrong with the way it is now?

The NBA is a league of haves and have-nots.  Not all of the "haves" are big market teams, but small market "haves" can very quickly become "have-nots" when their star players leave for nothing, or force a trade.  Small market teams are faced with a choice between spending beyond their means to compete or not spending and never making it past the first round.  It's too easy for players to work hard to land their first big contract and then take it easy after they've been paid; other players suffer injuries that severely limit their productivity, making their contracts dead weight.  Yet since the contracts are guaranteed, their teams are saddled with the dead weight.

I could go on. 
That's impossible to fix though, and doesn't really have anything to do with the CBA.  How are you gonna make players play for teams they don't want to play for?  The big markets have more people watching, it's only logical they're gonna attract more players. 

Also how many players outside of Mark Blount really give up after they get money?

Plenty of players perform far better in contract years than the rest of their contracts.

Also, you can't make players join teams they don't like, but you can limit the spending power of big market clubs, thereby limiting the number of teams a free agent can sign with for their fair market value.
Well that's one of the points of the soft cap though.  It makes it harder for teams to get under the cap, and encourages teams to sign their own players via exceptions instead and then add much smaller FAs with the MLE.

A hard cap limits max spending but it also means a significantly higher cap level which allows you to sign multiple FAs much easier, or allows you to add a good FA without completely rebuilding your team.  Non-guaranteed contracts compound the problem even further, as now teams can just rebuild on the fly with less of a penalty (i.e. having to trade for expiring contracts and sucking for a little while).

It's still a business.  It doesn't make sense to have your best products playing in an environment where significantly less people are willing to spend money on them.  There's nothing you can do to make the NBA less of a business.  The small market teams have to either spend money to make money, or spend their money smarter rather than giving too much money to unworthy players and then complaining because they aren't living up to the stupid amount of money they agreed to pay them.
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Lets Hammer out our own CBA
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2011, 11:00:30 AM »

Offline CaptainJackLee

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I don't like a hard-cap because team-player continuity is very valuable from a business perspective and also in terms of the product on the floor. I don't want to see teams losing their young, up'n'coming, franchise player due to salary cap limitations.

See, I disagree that this is necessarily what would happen, especially if you empower teams with the ability to give their own free agents more money and longer contracts.  It may force teams to not hold onto lower tier players who want to make big money elsewhere (.e.g Glen Davis / Tony Allen types).  However, in a hard-cap market, those players would stand to make less money anyway.


The ability to give their own free-agents more money and longer contracts is irrelevant if there's a hard-cap and they don't have the cap-space. Some teams will have that cap space - especially those planning for it, rebuilding teams drafting high -, some others won't.  

What happens now with the Tony Allens or James Poseys of the world, would happen with the Rajon Rondo's too. Teams to compete will need to operate close to the cap and possibly with a few long-term commitments and those teams wouldn't be able to retain highly paid free-agents that they used to have on cheap.

Retooling would become impossible. Franchises like the Spurs in the last 20 years or the Pacers under  Walsh that had those huge runs of prolonged excellence would cease to exist. Keeping a championship team like the '04 Pistons together would become impossible.Successful players on successful teams become more expensive so the only way of retaining them is if you're well under the cap - probably difficult for a good team - or if you can go over the cap to retain them - impossible with a hard-cap.

It's simple logic - the biggest exception to the current cap is the ability to go over to retain your own free-agents. Turning the current cap into a hard one, the biggest change will be in teams' ability to retain their own free-agents.

I'm not sure who benefits from this. Nobody actually, economic theorists have been claiming hard salary caps are a source of inefficiencies and distortions since the 80s, they exist because they're easy to implement and understand. But you can achieve the same thing with revenue-sharing + very progressive tax - without paying for the negatives of the salary cap, namely the team-player continuity price.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 11:22:03 AM by CaptainJackLee »