Does anybody else remember how horrible he played in the 2008 playoffs? 33% shooting and 20% from 3. I just remember cringing whenever he came in and cursing him saying I would’ve expected more from a veteran. Happy to have him ON THE BENCH THOUGH. 😂
I mean, he was 38...
Gary Payton was 37 when he helped Shaq & Wade win a chip. Granted, he didn't help as much as the referees, but he was still a contributor.
Payton in that playoff run: 6/2/2/1 on 42/29 shooting.
Cassell in ours: 5/1/1 on 33/21 shooting.
Payton was certainly better (specifically on D), but neither were very good. The Glove averaged 2/2/2/1 in the Finals
I was thinking specifically of his game winner in Game 3 and the final basket in Game 5 of the Finals that year - granted, that's only two plays, but it's two more big plays than I can think of from Sam Cassell on our title run.
Cassell was up and down that Finals run, but he had some good moments, particularly in the first two rounds. As I recall, he didn't do much after the first couple games or so of the Cleveland series. As I recall, fans we calling for Eddie House, who was up and down himself.
Had a big game against CLE to help get a win. Some clutch play. If I remember right.
Was there something with Lindsey Hunter as well? E House couldn't bring the ball up against his full court pressure defense. The 2nd unit fell apart whenever Rondo wasn't in the game. Cassell calmed things down and got the Celtics 2nd unit back on track.
House was big against LAL if I remember right.
It was an interesting use of deep bench players. Two backup guards with different skill-sets that could help the team in different types of situations. House the microwave scorer and outside shooter. A SG in a PG body. Cassell the floor general who could run the team. Doc had to shift back and forth between the two looking for the right fit for each opponent / series.
Exactly what Mazzula refused to do with our deep bench in this playoff run with Hauser, Muscala, Pritchard, B Griffin. It was a similar situation. One where the coach used his depth properly and and succeeded vs one where the coach refused to and failed.
That 2008 Celtics bench didn't have great individual talent beyond James Posey but they had 11-12 good pros who could offer different skills that if utilized well by a smart coach who understood when to use what and where, could be very successful. It is similar to our bench this year only our bench this year was a bit deeper than just Posey with Brogdon, G Will and R Will / D White. But that end of bench situation with guys with different skill-sets who could be valuable if used correctly with Hauser, Muscala, Pritchard, B Griffin is the same as that 2008 team. One coached well. One coached absymally.
The 2008 team had PJ Brown (big defensive PF/C), rookie Glen Davis (skilled undersized big), Powe (interior scorer, rebounder). It was about finding the right balance between them. Same as with House vs Cassell. It wasn't that there was a constant 2 bigs that played. Doc had find the right mix for the right occassion. Read the game. Read the opponent. Figure out what his team needs and use his deep bench correctly. Same with Tony Allen. Did not play every game. But in certain situations, TA's elite defense and athleticism was needed and Doc used him then. Othertimes, he stayed with Posey and one guard (Cassell or House) and did not play TA. And of course, Scalabrine. I forgot Scal! Our perimeter big man who could stretch the floor and play the best team defense at PF over Powe / BBD.
Doc had 7 guys off his bench he could put into a playoff game and be productive but only really Posey (maybe PJ Brown although he was still playing himself back into shape / match sharpness early in the playoffs) that could be relied on night in night out. The rest was for the coach to figure out how to utilize that depth. Doc did that. He did it well.
Mazzula faced with a similar situation here this season with quality NBA pros deep on his bench with Hauser, Muscala, Pritchard, B Griffin fluffed his lines.
This is also why I hate the idea that deep bench players do not matter in the playoffs. The 2008 Celtics is a clear example of them mattering. Of how utilization of them led to key wins and a title run. How a failure to pick out correctly the right player, the right minutes against the right opponent in the right games in all likelihood would have led to that team failing to win that 2008 title.
Deep bench can matter a great deal if used well.
This is the leap that I'm having trouble with.
It's true that Doc played a 12 man rotation with the 2008 Celtics - in the sense that 12 guys physically saw the floor during the playoffs - but there are parts of your memory that aren't lining up with reality. For one thing, Scal didn't play in the postseason that year. Glen Davis was more or less a warm body, Eddie House was 'spot minutes' and TA's time on the floor was essentially a rounding error - he played 4.3 minutes per game and arguably spent more of that run as a DNP than a meaningful contributor, even though he had a couple big games.
My point, basically, is that in 2008, Doc played 9 guys more than 10 minutes per game. In 2009, Doc played 9 guys more than 10 minutes per game. in 2010 and 2011, bucking the trend, Doc played 8 guys more than 10 minutes per game. In 2023, with Philadelphia, Doc played 9 guys more than 10 minutes per game.
This is in stark contrast to Ime who played... 9 guys more than 10 minutes per game.
And it's completely different from Mazz, who played... 8 guys more than 10 minutes per game. And, in terms of absolute headcount, Joe and Ime both put more guys on the floor than Doc did.
I wouldn't include Ime in this discussion as we did not have quality deep bench players on last year's team. He had 7 main guys then Pritchard and Theis both of whom he used frequently. Beyond that, there was little else on the roster. Hauser was just a rookie. He wasn't ready. Nesmith was the next most established guy but he had struggled all year long and could not be depended on for useful minutes. Then Kornet who I would not and did not include as a bench guy who can be depended on for useful minutes. Stauskas = not able to depend on.
Edit:
If the top 9 guys weren't performing, there was nobody Ime could turn to. None of the other guys were guys who could be relied on in a playoff game. So that was a different type of roster. Not all playoff teams have deep benches. Some only go 7-8 deep. Some go 9-10 deep. Some go 11-13 men deep. How you use your bench depends on the quality you have available to you. Not all coaches should use deep benches. You use what you got.
Doc's roster and Mazzula's roster were both 11-13 men deep. That is why I compare them to one another. Doc's roster is particularly interesting because the bench was shallow at the top (7th, 8th, 9th men) but made up for it with strong depth beyond that (10th man, 11th man, 12th man).
It was not only that his bench was deep in pros, guys he could turn to and put into an NBA playoff game and trust them to a job for him, but that they all offered different types of skill-sets. Ainge did a wonderful job of giving Doc options. He wasn't able to get strong bench talent but he was able to get variety.
So we had flawed guys (weak 7th, 8th, 9th men) like Eddie House . Not a real PG. Not a good ball-handler. Not much of a passer. But a brilliant outside shooter, explosive scorer. Adequate defender. But then you had the contrast of that in Sam Cassell. Cassell was that reliable ball-handler and passer who could be turned to when a different skill-set was needed.
Same with the bigs. They all offered different skill-sets. PJ Brown was the only backup big with legit size and length. Then you had the undersized PFs of Powe and BBD. Powe more an interior player and highly productive. BBD more cerebral. Smart skilled PF. Scalabrine gave them a stretch PF.
Another coach could have taken that same bench and said -- we have a weak bench, I only got one guy in James Posey I can depend on night in night out. That is a true and fair statement. Well, maybe PJ Brown as well. The rest are flawed bench pieces. They were not built for all weather purposes. Powe and BBD were young, undersized defensively, could be inconsistent and lacking in experience. House was a dodgy ball-handler. Cassell was old and at the end of the road. TA had no offense.
BTW, this is the response that Monty Williams made about his team in this year's playoffs. He lacked high end bench pieces. He lost all trust in his bench and refused to incorporate them. He had bench pieces. He had TJ Warren, T-Ross, C Payne, D Lee, Okogie, Biyombo, Landale, Shamet. If Doc had done the same, we probably wouldn't have the title in 2008.
Back to Mazzula and this year's Celtics.
We had a stronger bench in terms of top end pieces. We had three guys in Brogdon, G Williams and R Williams / D White who could be relied on for high quality bench minutes compared to 1 for Doc in James Posey. They were all all-weather pieces. They didn't need to be chopped and changed depending on matchups or due to individual flaws. You maybe adjust their minutes upwards or downwards but no need to drop them in and out of the rotation as with House or Cassell.
So it is not the same bench as Doc. Doc had a much more challenging bench to manage. Mazzula had arguably the best bench in the league. A brilliant bench in terms of top end pieces and a brilliant bench in terms deep bench pieces.
Mazzula had a steady 8 man rotation which he did not need to veer away from based on talent or matchups. Unfortunately, the 2023 Celtics were often struggling and under-performing in the playoffs. This is where the deep bench offered value.
Muscala (shooting big), Hauser (shooting wing), Pritchard (ball-handler, shooter, small guard), B Griffin (energy big). Each of these guys had a specific utility which if required could be called upon by Mazzula.
How many times did we see Mazzula successfully turn these guys and get a performance out of them?
He used them in some blowout games. Hauser he gave a shot to play early in the ATL series but then lost all faith in him and Mazzula barely played Hauser throughout the rest of the playoffs. Pritchard he gave an opportunity to against MIA but exposed him to Jimmy Butler on that switching defense and made Pritchard into a net negative. That was bad utilization by the coach. Muscala the whole playoffs.
How many times did we struggle against MIA's zone? How many times did our offense sputter and go cold? We had strong shooters on that bench in Hauser, Muscala & Pritchard.
How many times did Horford go cold in the playoffs? How many times did we need a big man who can hit an outside shot to give us good spacing? Muscala was available. Griffin was available.
Why wouldn't Mazzula bench Brogdon when he was clearly failing to provide useful minutes against MIA (due to injury)? Pritchard was struggling matchup wise if Jimmy was in the game but Hauser was a good matchup.
How many times did our starters & main bench guys come out with a lack of energy & intensity? How many times did we see them get out-hustled or out-worked? A few minutes of Griffin or Pritchard to try and energize the team would've been great.
There were opportunities to use them. There was the need for them. The talent was available to Mazzula in terms of all being useful NBA players capable of being thrust into a playoff game. Yet, they were not.
Edit:
It is not that I want to see them play regularly. I don't. The main 8 guys are our best player and I want to see them play as many of the minutes as possible. But when they aren't bringing it. When they are playing badly. Those were times when the deep bench could've been better utilized. 