Author Topic: JB’s Progress  (Read 13548 times)

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Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #105 on: January 30, 2023, 03:38:21 PM »

Offline #1P4P

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Similar to the Lebron and Kyrie dilemma, JT’s the better player, but JB’s the better option in the 4th quarter and should be the closer.

In the 4th quarter, when the pace of the game slows, spacing tightens, and conditioning is tested, Jaylen is better suited for those situations. He’s better at breaking his man down in isolation, getting to his spots, and getting a good shot off (this is backed by 4th quarter stats with Jaylen shooting +6.2% in FG% and +4.8% in 3P%).

JT’s struggled in late game situations with decision making against double teams, getting through tight driving lanes, and reading off ball defenders closing passing lanes when he drives. Jaylen doesn’t have those problems because he doesn’t get doubled, look to pass, and gets a good shot off (especially now that he’s one of the best midrange shooters in the NBA).

I’d be interested in seeing stats on this. 

EDIT:  JT and JB are both really good in the 4th, apparently.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=who+has+scored+the+most+4th-quarter+points+this+season

They are both productive 4th quarter players. The point is JB being a better option in the 4th quarter.

JB is more efficient and JT closes the gap with FTA and slightly more FGA. The efficiency disparity becomes even more glaring in the last 10 games with Jaylen at 58.3/50.0/100 split to Jayson's 46.9/43.8/93.3 (Jaylen only averages 0.2 FTA to Jayson's 2.0). Jaylen's been more efficient in every month this season, except November, in Jayson's best season.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional?TeamID=1610612738&Period=4&LastNGames=10

Here's advanced stats, where Jaylen has a higher EFG%, TS%, NET RTG:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?Period=4&TeamID=1610612738

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #106 on: January 30, 2023, 03:47:38 PM »

Online jpotter33

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Similar to the Lebron and Kyrie dilemma, JT’s the better player, but JB’s the better option in the 4th quarter and should be the closer.

In the 4th quarter, when the pace of the game slows, spacing tightens, and conditioning is tested, Jaylen is better suited for those situations. He’s better at breaking his man down in isolation, getting to his spots, and getting a good shot off (this is backed by 4th quarter stats with Jaylen shooting +6.2% in FG% and +4.8% in 3P%).

JT’s struggled in late game situations with decision making against double teams, getting through tight driving lanes, and reading off ball defenders closing passing lanes when he drives. Jaylen doesn’t have those problems because he doesn’t get doubled, look to pass, and gets a good shot off (especially now that he’s one of the best midrange shooters in the NBA).

I don’t really buy this at all. To me Tatum is by far the better closer, as he’s much better at getting to the line, much better at knocking down free throws when needed, and is a much better and more willing passer.

I think any difference you see in their stats or efficiency in those situations is primarily due to the fact that Tatum has reached the level that they almost always try to double him in those situations to take the ball out of his hands. And that’s partly why he’s so fatigued of late and having lackluster efficiency due to carrying such a heavy load all season. And Brown is the primary benefactor of that doubling, as it gives him more room and opportunity to work.

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2023, 04:14:03 PM »

Online Moranis

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Similar to the Lebron and Kyrie dilemma, JT’s the better player, but JB’s the better option in the 4th quarter and should be the closer.

In the 4th quarter, when the pace of the game slows, spacing tightens, and conditioning is tested, Jaylen is better suited for those situations. He’s better at breaking his man down in isolation, getting to his spots, and getting a good shot off (this is backed by 4th quarter stats with Jaylen shooting +6.2% in FG% and +4.8% in 3P%).

JT’s struggled in late game situations with decision making against double teams, getting through tight driving lanes, and reading off ball defenders closing passing lanes when he drives. Jaylen doesn’t have those problems because he doesn’t get doubled, look to pass, and gets a good shot off (especially now that he’s one of the best midrange shooters in the NBA).

I don’t really buy this at all. To me Tatum is by far the better closer, as he’s much better at getting to the line, much better at knocking down free throws when needed, and is a much better and more willing passer.

I think any difference you see in their stats or efficiency in those situations is primarily due to the fact that Tatum has reached the level that they almost always try to double him in those situations to take the ball out of his hands. And that’s partly why he’s so fatigued of late and having lackluster efficiency due to carrying such a heavy load all season. And Brown is the primary benefactor of that doubling, as it gives him more room and opportunity to work.
I agree.  Tatum is Boston's force multiplier any time he is on the floor. 
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Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2023, 05:09:50 PM »

Offline td450

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Similar to the Lebron and Kyrie dilemma, JT’s the better player, but JB’s the better option in the 4th quarter and should be the closer.

In the 4th quarter, when the pace of the game slows, spacing tightens, and conditioning is tested, Jaylen is better suited for those situations. He’s better at breaking his man down in isolation, getting to his spots, and getting a good shot off (this is backed by 4th quarter stats with Jaylen shooting +6.2% in FG% and +4.8% in 3P%).

JT’s struggled in late game situations with decision making against double teams, getting through tight driving lanes, and reading off ball defenders closing passing lanes when he drives. Jaylen doesn’t have those problems because he doesn’t get doubled, look to pass, and gets a good shot off (especially now that he’s one of the best midrange shooters in the NBA).

I don’t really buy this at all. To me Tatum is by far the better closer, as he’s much better at getting to the line, much better at knocking down free throws when needed, and is a much better and more willing passer.

I think any difference you see in their stats or efficiency in those situations is primarily due to the fact that Tatum has reached the level that they almost always try to double him in those situations to take the ball out of his hands. And that’s partly why he’s so fatigued of late and having lackluster efficiency due to carrying such a heavy load all season. And Brown is the primary benefactor of that doubling, as it gives him more room and opportunity to work.

OK, but they are doubling him. He is getting loaded up on.

It is true that Tatum is more skilled and usually a better decision maker. That is why they built the whole team around him. But... he's subject to holding onto frustration. He doesn't let a play go instantly, and he has let that affect his play.

Jaylen is a bit more willful and forgets if a quarter or even the last play went south instantly. I also think the midrange shot is the most reliable option under intense pressure, and Jaylen is better at that than Tatum is.

I think they would be best off if the ball kept moving and teams didn't know which guy was taking the last shot.

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2023, 06:24:21 PM »

Offline MarcusSmartFanClub

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Jayson definitely complains more than Brown. It’s a sign of maturity or mental toughness. I love both Jayson and Jaylen. Go Celtics.

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2023, 06:37:33 PM »

Offline #1P4P

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Similar to the Lebron and Kyrie dilemma, JT’s the better player, but JB’s the better option in the 4th quarter and should be the closer.

In the 4th quarter, when the pace of the game slows, spacing tightens, and conditioning is tested, Jaylen is better suited for those situations. He’s better at breaking his man down in isolation, getting to his spots, and getting a good shot off (this is backed by 4th quarter stats with Jaylen shooting +6.2% in FG% and +4.8% in 3P%).

JT’s struggled in late game situations with decision making against double teams, getting through tight driving lanes, and reading off ball defenders closing passing lanes when he drives. Jaylen doesn’t have those problems because he doesn’t get doubled, look to pass, and gets a good shot off (especially now that he’s one of the best midrange shooters in the NBA).

I don’t really buy this at all. To me Tatum is by far the better closer, as he’s much better at getting to the line, much better at knocking down free throws when needed, and is a much better and more willing passer.

I think any difference you see in their stats or efficiency in those situations is primarily due to the fact that Tatum has reached the level that they almost always try to double him in those situations to take the ball out of his hands. And that’s partly why he’s so fatigued of late and having lackluster efficiency due to carrying such a heavy load all season. And Brown is the primary benefactor of that doubling, as it gives him more room and opportunity to work.

If teams are doubling Tatum in the 4th and making him less efficient than Brown while Brown isn't being doubled, Brown is the better option to close.

This season, 55.4% of Jaylen's FGM in the 4th are unassisted to Jayson's 47.1%. If he's making more unassisted FG in the 4th, he's creating his own looks more often than not, creating them more often than JT, and is more efficient. So JB being "the primary benefactor, as it gives him more room and opportunity to work", is dubious.

TS%  includes FTA and Jaylen's outperformed Jayson in TS% since the 2021-22 playoffs.

Assuming that Isolation and P&R are the most common play types in the 4th, Jaylen is 0.93 and 1.03 as the P&R Handler (for the entire game) while Jayson is 0.91 and 0.88, respectively. Tatum and Brown great players, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to Brown's 4th quarter prowess because you "don't buy it".

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2023, 06:50:13 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Dave Cowens
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Similar to the Lebron and Kyrie dilemma, JT’s the better player, but JB’s the better option in the 4th quarter and should be the closer.

In the 4th quarter, when the pace of the game slows, spacing tightens, and conditioning is tested, Jaylen is better suited for those situations. He’s better at breaking his man down in isolation, getting to his spots, and getting a good shot off (this is backed by 4th quarter stats with Jaylen shooting +6.2% in FG% and +4.8% in 3P%).

JT’s struggled in late game situations with decision making against double teams, getting through tight driving lanes, and reading off ball defenders closing passing lanes when he drives. Jaylen doesn’t have those problems because he doesn’t get doubled, look to pass, and gets a good shot off (especially now that he’s one of the best midrange shooters in the NBA).

I don’t really buy this at all. To me Tatum is by far the better closer, as he’s much better at getting to the line, much better at knocking down free throws when needed, and is a much better and more willing passer.

I think any difference you see in their stats or efficiency in those situations is primarily due to the fact that Tatum has reached the level that they almost always try to double him in those situations to take the ball out of his hands. And that’s partly why he’s so fatigued of late and having lackluster efficiency due to carrying such a heavy load all season. And Brown is the primary benefactor of that doubling, as it gives him more room and opportunity to work.

OK, but they are doubling him. He is getting loaded up on.

It is true that Tatum is more skilled and usually a better decision maker. That is why they built the whole team around him. But... he's subject to holding onto frustration. He doesn't let a play go instantly, and he has let that affect his play.

Jaylen is a bit more willful and forgets if a quarter or even the last play went south instantly. I also think the midrange shot is the most reliable option under intense pressure, and Jaylen is better at that than Tatum is.

I think they would be best off if the ball kept moving and teams didn't know which guy was taking the last shot.

Ball and players need to move.  The offense seems so uncreative at times. Almost always true with the 4th quarter ISOs.  The effect is that they are too predictable, get forced into tough shots or turnovexrs, and also de-energize the other players on the court. I think it hurts the team’s alertness and energy on defense.  Lot of guys on this team can pass the ball and most can shoot - even Smart who I hate shooting 3 has a reliable game in the lane.  Work a dang play other than ISO/picks for JT or JB.
Give me an open Brogdon over a smothered Tatum any day.   
When I watch JT setting up the step back 3 when you know his legs aren’t fresh - not a good feeling.

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #112 on: February 06, 2023, 07:52:40 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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If the Celtics are able to beat the lottery bound pistons tonight without brown we can add it to the record for the Celtics that proves the Celtics don’t need him!!!

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #113 on: February 06, 2023, 08:16:15 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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If the Celtics are able to beat the lottery bound pistons tonight without brown we can add it to the record for the Celtics that proves the Celtics don’t need him!!!

Yeesh
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #114 on: February 06, 2023, 08:25:41 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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If the Celtics are able to beat the lottery bound pistons tonight without brown we can add it to the record for the Celtics that proves the Celtics don’t need him!!!

Yeesh
Lol

Re: JB’s Progress
« Reply #115 on: February 06, 2023, 09:51:32 PM »

Offline todd_days_41

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He’s really good. Still turns the ball over too much (increases every year).