Draymond may get suspended

[Celtics2021]

Have people not been on teams where stuff like this happens? Where arguments break out between teammates? Where arguments turn into fights which punches thrown? Usually over as quickly as they started after being broken up by others, like Draymond & Poole was. Sometimes the fights can be vicious. It happens.

Heated arguments are common. Fights are rare. Vicious ones even rarer. But they happen.

You apologize. You shake hands. You move on.

I'm pretty sure everyone who went to high school has seen two people fight and then make up. Yet, I've never seen a physical assault in my entire professional life that didn't result in termination.

Maybe I'm wrong to feel this way, but I think it's justified that the NBA has a higher standard than a schoolyard, considering that the participants are among the most privileged and highly paid humans on the planet.

except fights happen among teammates in team sports all of the time. In NFL training camp there are physical fights every single off season for every single team. This one may be a bit worse than most, but it happens all of the time.  It is just a different workplace than the normal one.

For example, here is a brawl from August where haymakers were thrown

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/video-shows-major-fight-at-giants-training-camp-that-involves-multiple-players-and-even-an-assistant-coach/

The "it happens all the time" argument has been offered several times in this thread, but I don't find in convincing at all. Guys will stop throwing haymakers, when they stop being enabled to throw haymakers "'cause sports". Many pro sports have a culture of excusing violence because "boys will be boys", the same way Hollywood has had a culture of sexually abusing actresses. Wrong is wrong, and I personally get pretty exhausted by the level of defensiveness and excuses saying otherwise. When a grown man punches another grown man as hard as he can in the face, with intent to seriously injure, at his job, he should lose his job for a while (at least). I couldn't care less if "everyone is doing it".

I was disagreeing with your comparison to the rest of professional life.  it isn't the same thing and has never been the same thing.  Just like the things discussed in a locker room could never be discussed in an office.  Sports are just a different animal.  Now I'd agree athletes shouldn't be assaulting anyone but I don't really think it is a big deal in the context of sports.

In a vacuum maybe you'd have more of a case but the 'close ranks' mentality around all professional sports leagues continues to lead to terrible, self-inflicted injuries to the various leagues' credibility.

Not to mention that it makes it harder for teams doing the right thing (like the Celtics with Udoka) when they are put at a clear disadvantage by doing so. After all, sexual misconduct is certainly not a big deal in the context of sports, right? Just ask Kobe.

We all know that Draymond-Gate is just Ray Rice 2.0, where the punishment is only going to occur because the video leaked, but the fact that behaviours have been allowed to pass without comment does not mean they should continue to pass without comment.

Players don’t assault each other all the time with haymakers to the face. When was the last time tmz realized footage of a player connecting with another teammates face and knocking him out during a practice? I am pretty sure there hasn’t been one with our Celtics to this degree in 30 years.  I honestly can’t remember with any team since mirotic. Its an incredibly bad take to say this happens all the time (and inaccurate). But we shouldn’t be surprised. #contrariantakesgonebad

I don’t think anyone should say it happens all the time.  It doesn’t.  But I also believe it’s naive to think that every time it happens we all hear about it, or that something similar has never happened in Boston.  For instance, the Celtics reportedly had Rondo and Ray have a boxing match to try to get out the aggression between the two.  While that’s a bit more formalized than what happened with the Warriors just now, it also probably happened after they were close to coming to blows, or had a smaller altercation that was broken up.

The Warriors are upset that this leaked because they weren’t able to sweep it under the rug, and they have probably done so in the past, as have other teams.  Not often, I would imagine, but I’m fairly sure most teams have a protocol to handle these things internally with vague “conduct detrimental to the team” fines and suspensions.

[Who]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

[Kernewek]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

So close! But you bolded the wrong bit. I’ve fixed it for you.

[gouki88]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

Almost as if he's still trying to sweep it under the rug!

[celticsclay]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

Almost as if he's still trying to sweep it under the rug!

20 plus in 32 years is not all that much, especially when you acknowledge that the vast majority of these are going to involve shoving back and forth. That’s just the nature of physical altercations. Especially in my younger 20’s a lot of friends would occasionally get a bit physical with other when they were drunk but 90% of it was shoving and or wrestling. Punching someone in the face the way green did is absolutely not normal. If he does that ten times based off the footage there is an injury at least part of the time coming from a professional athlete. It’s really extremely weird to me for anyone to believe that a full speed with momentum punch to the head just happens on teams all the time. That really strikes me as an insane viewpoint. Like we literally know this doesn’t happen. We have had tell all books come out from many many athletes and there are stories that have come out like jordan punching Kerr. But it is in way remotely close to all the time. Let’s get some sanity back on the forum.

[satch]

Makes one wonder how many others he has punched that got swept under the rug.

[byennie]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

There would probably have been 18 or 19 less if everyone knew it was completely forbidden and their job depended on that.

[celticsclay]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

There would probably have been 18 or 19 less if everyone knew it was completely forbidden and their job depended on that.

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say here.

[Who]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

There would probably have been 18 or 19 less if everyone knew it was completely forbidden and their job depended on that.

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say here.

That most of these fights would never have happened if there had of been more severe punishments in place (long suspensions, waived from team).

[celticsclay]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

There would probably have been 18 or 19 less if everyone knew it was completely forbidden and their job depended on that.

I don’t really understand what you are trying to say here.

That most of these fights would never have happened if there had of been more severe punishments in place (long suspensions, waived from team).

Ok I’m still pretty confused here. Are people really interpreting what Kerr said to mean he has seen 20 teammates get punched in the head and knocked over in the last 30 years? I really don’t understand how people can believe this based on the prevalence of smart phones and social media and countless tell all books that have come out in the last 20 years. It seems impossible to me for someone to actually believe teammates are doing full motion punches to their teammates heads all the time. Can someone explain this viewpoint to me?

[Moranis]

Interesting comment to give some context on the frequency of fights within NBA teams by Steve Kerr based on all his years in the NBA as a player, GM & coach.

Kendra Andrews
@kendra__andrews
Steve Kerr on the leaked video of Green and Poole: "It's like if you had a camera in your family and there was a family dispute. Would you really want to discuss it with the world? No."

"In 32 years, I've probably seen 20-plus fights. It should not make it out of our walls."

There would probably have been 18 or 19 less if everyone knew it was completely forbidden and their job depended on that.

I don't think that is true.  Coaches like the fire.  They like the passion. They don't encourage fighting of course, but they want their guys to care, and when you care that much, in a profession where you are constantly bumping into each other, fighting for position, this sort of thing can happen.  That is why it is much more common in the NFL than the NBA, but it isn't rare in the NBA. 

[bdm860]

Ok I’m still pretty confused here. Are people really interpreting what Kerr said to mean he has seen 20 teammates get punched in the head and knocked over in the last 30 years?

In my mind it's clear as day.

Fights in practice happen all the time.  Here's the Inside the NBA crew discussing Portis/Mirotic from 2017, and the clip ends with Shaq saying there wasn't a single season in his career where fights didn't happen between teammates, and he threw punches a couple of times.  I imagine Kerr's experience was similar (here's a clip from 2020 showing the Kerr/Jordan fight clip from the Last Dance, then Kerr saying there were 3-4 practice fights per year).

But all "fights" aren't created equal.  Two guys tussling for a rebound, or someone takes exception to a hard foul or errant elbow, or 2 players guarding each other talking trash and things get heated. I imagine those are the types of fights that happen regularly (usually just shoving, an occasional punch, but all probably have 2 willing participants, and are quickly broken up).  It's an intense, physical game, things happen.  If you watched the Inside the NBA clip I posted above, Kenny Smith called those scuffles and seems to say they happen regularly (but that Portis/Mirotic fight was another level).

This Draymond Green thing is different.  It's not a scuffle.  No way I believe fights like that happen regularly (unless maybe Charles Oakley was on your team).  I think both Shaq and Kerr (and all other players chiming in) are being disingenuous when they talk about fights.  It's the difference between a player cussing out his coach and Sprewell choking Carlesimo, then trying to defend Sprewell by saying heated arguments between players and coaches happen all the time.  Not the same thing.

Definitely seems like some people are having a hard time separating the two.



Will also add, part of it seems to be living in the past, in a Mad Men world.  "In my day, bosses always slept with their secretaries, so I don't see what's wrong with it!"  So even if fights like this did happen regularly 10, 20, 30 years ago, doesn't mean it should still be accepted today.  NBA teams can evolve for the better like every other industry.

[johnnygreen]

I do find it funny that so many people here are against Draymond throwing a punch. Yet, in another thread, we have a gun debate. I'm curious how many people are anti-punch that are also gun advocates.

[celticsclay]

Ok I’m still pretty confused here. Are people really interpreting what Kerr said to mean he has seen 20 teammates get punched in the head and knocked over in the last 30 years?

In my mind it's clear as day.

Fights in practice happen all the time.  Here's the Inside the NBA crew discussing Portis/Mirotic from 2017, and the clip ends with Shaq saying there wasn't a single season in his career where fights didn't happen between teammates, and he threw punches a couple of times.  I imagine Kerr's experience was similar (here's a clip from 2020 showing the Kerr/Jordan fight clip from the Last Dance, then Kerr saying there were 3-4 practice fights per year).

But all "fights" aren't created equal.  Two guys tussling for a rebound, or someone takes exception to a hard foul or errant elbow, or 2 players guarding each other talking trash and things get heated. I imagine those are the types of fights that happen regularly (usually just shoving, an occasional punch, but all probably have 2 willing participants, and are quickly broken up).  It's an intense, physical game, things happen.  If you watched the Inside the NBA clip I posted above, Kenny Smith called those scuffles and seems to say they happen regularly (but that Portis/Mirotic fight was another level).

This Draymond Green thing is different.  It's not a scuffle.  No way I believe fights like that happen regularly (unless maybe Charles Oakley was on your team).  I think both Shaq and Kerr (and all other players chiming in) are being disingenuous when they talk about fights.  It's the difference between a player cussing out his coach and Sprewell choking Carlesimo, then trying to defend Sprewell by saying heated arguments between players and coaches happen all the time.  Not the same thing.

Definitely seems like some people are having a hard time separating the two.



Will also add, part of it seems to be living in the past, in a Mad Men world.  "In my day, bosses always slept with their secretaries, so I don't see what's wrong with it!"  So even if fights like this did happen regularly 10, 20, 30 years ago, doesn't mean it should still be accepted today.  NBA teams can evolve for the better like every other industry.

Thanks BDM, I think you summed this up well and is more in line what I believe it is logical rather than the "lazy this happens all the time." Just knowing basic math stuff if there were punches like Draymond threw all the time the NBA would have players on the injury lists with face lacerations, concussions etc. Punches like that do real damage and Green probably didn't fully connect to avoid injury in this case.

[CelticsWhat35]

Absolutely pathetic that he’s not getting suspended.  This isn’t even about “winning above all” because Draymond isn’t that good and they could easily weather a 5-10 or whatever-game suspension without him.  It’s a disgusting mentality that thinks what he did is completely normal behavior because it’s “in the heat of battle”.  There’s no battle.  It was a boring walk-through and Draymond got his feelings hurt because he was called a name and decided to sucker punch something with their hands down