What about Brad?

[wiley]

This obsession with a 3d star is what has gotten the Lakers where they are at - an aging, mismatched roster with almost no flexibility.

It also got Milwaukee a championship by acquiring Holiday

I'm also not in love with the get a third star mantra, which partly originated I think with KG, Pierce and Allen coming together.  The thing is, unless you have a KG, with his leadership, toughness, defense, willingness to let other dominate on offense, OR you have a Lebron in his prime, then it may or may not work out so well.

In that light I felt Milwaukee went after Holiday not for his stardom, but for his ability to run a team competently and because if they didn't do something serious then losing Giannis would have become even more of a possibility in people's minds, if not his.

[todd_days_41]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

[JBcat]

I like Brad's moves, but they've come at a price.

Horford for Kemba is an upgrade, but it cost you a first.

Richardson for White is an upgrade, but it cost you a first.

Schroder was fine, but honestly flipping him for an overpaid but fine player in Theis isn't some amazing move to me. Brining in kanter at all was questionable.

So his moves have been good, but they've bene more like singles or doubles so far

Yeah, I was just thinking Ainge got to the point where he was sitting on pitches waiting for a home run. Stevens is hitting singles and taking walks. That's fine if you believe we have the talent to knock in those runs. Ainge didn't. He wanted another big bat in the lineup. /analogy

I think that's a pretty good way of putting it. These are fine moves if you believe in a Tatum/Brown core as being enough and just need the right guys around it. But nothing he's done so far gets you much closer to a third star, at least not directly.

Now you can argue maybe that these moves give you more contract flexibility to pursue a third star. Having Theis as your backup C maybe makes Horford more expendable as salary matching. Having both White and Smart makes one or the other more expendable in a star trade. And maybe being below the tax this year makes ownership more likely to spend in future years.

Anyway the moves have been fine, but there's been no Ainge level homerun and quite frankly continually moving first round picks could come back and bite you.

I do wonder if Stevens is looking at non-lottery first round picks with the eyes of a coach, who rarely saw value come from so many of the team's picks during his tenure. A typical GM might value those assets more highly than a coach who only sees the immediate improvements that are available. Like benching your rookie and putting in a vet is easy. But is it a better long term move to play the rookie? I don't know if that's in play in Stevens' decisions thus far, but I find it interesting.

It might be to a degree.  I do think Brad did not like having four to five rookies at a time while also trying to win with a young team.  Essentially it was serving two masters — you can’t develop all those young players without sacrificing winning, which is an important thing for the high-end young talent in Brown and Tatum.  The Js are still young, but entering their primes, and it is time to put the best team around them you can.  It would have been awesome if Romeo could have been one of those players, but he wasn’t, and they gave him a lot of time.  Rob Williams did become such a player, but it took him until year 3 to get there.  Same thing with Grant, although he played well enough in his rookie season to be of situational use.  And maybe someone drafted at 20-something would become such a player in 2-3 years, but Derrick White is ready to be that player now AND has three years after this left on his deal.  The odds that whomever we drafted would be more valuable than White three years from now is pretty low, much less the res of the season and the following two seasons.

I do think we’ll start making some picks again in a year or so, so that those guys can be ready when some contracts expire.  We have our entire rotation under contract next year tho — there’s no need for a 1st rounder in 2022.  The C’s can develop Begarin.

This is a good point.  We have everyone back next season if we want them (excluding Kornet who is a UFA), and even the season after that, everyone is either signed, a team option, or a RFA.

A big question of course is what to do with Horford who has been an impactful member of the core rotation.  We are looking at a pretty big team salary if we keep Horford and being over the cap will mean no sign and trades.  Even if we release Horford and pay his guarantee, it is a lot of dead money.  I guess we could stretch it to create some room?

If we do release Horford, we are going to need another starting level big.  I doubt the long term starter is Theis.  Likely that player will have to come via a trade and fit the Fournier TPE.

An idea I had thought of for a Horford replacement that also fits nicely into the Fournier TPE is Wendell Carter JR. He is also signed through the 25-26 season. He’s having a pretty solid year averaging 14 points, 10 boards, and 3 assists still only 22, and improving. Would Orlando bite on 2 first round picks? They are getting big Isaac back soon so possibly. He was thought of as a Horford type comparison when drafted so he could be a good get.

Then use our MLE to continue to work around the edges.

[Celtics4ever]

This obsession with a 3d star is what has gotten the Lakers where they are at - an aging, mismatched roster with almost no flexibility.

It also got Milwaukee a championship by acquiring Holiday

I'm also not in love with the get a third star mantra, which partly originated I think with KG, Pierce and Allen coming together.  The thing is, unless you have a KG, with his leadership, toughness, defense, willingness to let other dominate on offense, OR you have a Lebron in his prime, then it may or may not work out so well.

In that light I felt Milwaukee went after Holiday not for his stardom, but for his ability to run a team competently and because if they didn't do something serious then losing Giannis would have become even more of a possibility in people's minds, if not his.

We need shooters.

[Celtics2021]

This obsession with a 3d star is what has gotten the Lakers where they are at - an aging, mismatched roster with almost no flexibility.

It also got Milwaukee a championship by acquiring Holiday

Is Holiday even a star?  He had one All-Star appearance early in his his career as an injury replacement for Rondo, and that was it.  He’s a very good player, but even as a #2 next to Davis the Pelicans were not a good team.  He fits perfectly as a #3 on the Bucks, but just because he’s the third best player on a title team he isn’t necessarily a star.

[Vermont Green]

This obsession with a 3d star is what has gotten the Lakers where they are at - an aging, mismatched roster with almost no flexibility.

It also got Milwaukee a championship by acquiring Holiday

Is Holiday even a star?  He had one All-Star appearance early in his his career as an injury replacement for Rondo, and that was it.  He’s a very good player, but even as a #2 next to Davis the Pelicans were not a good team.  He fits perfectly as a #3 on the Bucks, but just because he’s the third best player on a title team he isn’t necessarily a star.

This is where I am at.  I am not even sure that Middleton is a star much less Holiday.  Very good players, complementary to Giannis, for sure, but not stars.

So if this "3rd star" means a PF who is on par with Holiday in terms of "stardom", then yes, that probably is something we need.  Or something that would make the team much better (depending of course on what we have to give up to get this 3rd star).

I am not sure that can happen though, we'll see.

[Goldstar88]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

What didn’t you like about the Theis trade? Theis for Schroder, Bruno and Kanter seems fair. Now we have a backup 4/5 with decent size at 6’9” who has already been in Boston and played well.

In regards to the White trade, I think it was an overpay, but sometimes you have to do that if you believe the player is a great fit. I don’t think he’s a huge upgrade in terms of talent, but I think Brad valued having another proven point guard with size that can defend at a high level. I’d imagine finding another 3 and D guy is easier than finding a backup PG. Even though Richardson isn’t a point guard, I would have loved to keep him and used the TPE to get White instead.

Having a rotation of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Timelord with White, Richardson, Grant, Theis off the bench would have given the C’s a lot of depth.

[footey]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

What didn’t you like about the Theis trade? Theis for Schroder, Bruno and Kanter seems fair. Now we have a backup 4/5 with decent size at 6’9” who has already been in Boston and played well.

In regards to the White trade, I think it was an overpay, but sometimes you have to do that if you believe the player is a great fit. I don’t think he’s a huge upgrade in terms of talent, but I think Brad valued having another proven point guard with size that can defend at a high level. I’d imagine finding another 3 and D guy is easier than finding a backup PG. Even though Richardson isn’t a point guard, I would have loved to keep him and used the TPE to get White instead.

Having a rotation of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Timelord with White, Richardson, Grant, Theis off the bench would have given the C’s a lot of depth.

The White trade can't be assessed until after the playoffs.  I think it was as much about getting the vets on the team like Brown and Tatum to see that management was committing to making things happen now, rather than relying on their patience through the draft.

[slamtheking]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

What didn’t you like about the Theis trade? Theis for Schroder, Bruno and Kanter seems fair. Now we have a backup 4/5 with decent size at 6’9” who has already been in Boston and played well.

In regards to the White trade, I think it was an overpay, but sometimes you have to do that if you believe the player is a great fit. I don’t think he’s a huge upgrade in terms of talent, but I think Brad valued having another proven point guard with size that can defend at a high level. I’d imagine finding another 3 and D guy is easier than finding a backup PG. Even though Richardson isn’t a point guard, I would have loved to keep him and used the TPE to get White instead.

Having a rotation of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Timelord with White, Richardson, Grant, Theis off the bench would have given the C’s a lot of depth.

the bolded defines where I'm at on the White trade.  He's not a big enough upgrade in talent to justify what we paid.  I disagree that sometimes you need to overpay just to get a player "that fits".  Fair value in that deal would have been Richardson and either Romeo or the first rounder.  no swap.  Brad gave up the equivalent of Richardson, a comparable player in terms of talent IMHO and 2 first rounders with a potential swap added.  White is not that caliber of player to bring SAS that kind of return.

[wiley]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

What didn’t you like about the Theis trade? Theis for Schroder, Bruno and Kanter seems fair. Now we have a backup 4/5 with decent size at 6’9” who has already been in Boston and played well.

In regards to the White trade, I think it was an overpay, but sometimes you have to do that if you believe the player is a great fit. I don’t think he’s a huge upgrade in terms of talent, but I think Brad valued having another proven point guard with size that can defend at a high level. I’d imagine finding another 3 and D guy is easier than finding a backup PG. Even though Richardson isn’t a point guard, I would have loved to keep him and used the TPE to get White instead.

Having a rotation of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Timelord with White, Richardson, Grant, Theis off the bench would have given the C’s a lot of depth.

the bolded defines where I'm at on the White trade.  He's not a big enough upgrade in talent to justify what we paid.  I disagree that sometimes you need to overpay just to get a player "that fits".  Fair value in that deal would have been Richardson and either Romeo or the first rounder.  no swap.  Brad gave up the equivalent of Richardson, a comparable player in terms of talent IMHO and 2 first rounders with a potential swap added.  White is not that caliber of player to bring SAS that kind of return.

Agree with the overpay crowd.  I wouldn't have done the deal.  Now that it's done, have to see if it pays off with a title in the next year or two.

What I question is whether Brown and Tatum are far enough along to warrant an overpay type deal.  I mean if Jordan and Pippen needed a high IQ PG, then you go out and get it and don't think twice.  The key to the deal is the Jays.  Are they ready to take advantage of the addition of White and his IQ, play-the-right-way-on-offense capabilities?

The C's were on a roll and J. Rich was balling for the C's, with good defense too...I'd have the let the Jays show me more first, before messing with that with an overpay...

White is good.  Look forward to seeing him help direct this team in the right direction.

[todd_days_41]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

What didn’t you like about the Theis trade? Theis for Schroder, Bruno and Kanter seems fair. Now we have a backup 4/5 with decent size at 6’9” who has already been in Boston and played well.

In regards to the White trade, I think it was an overpay, but sometimes you have to do that if you believe the player is a great fit. I don’t think he’s a huge upgrade in terms of talent, but I think Brad valued having another proven point guard with size that can defend at a high level. I’d imagine finding another 3 and D guy is easier than finding a backup PG. Even though Richardson isn’t a point guard, I would have loved to keep him and used the TPE to get White instead.

Having a rotation of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Timelord with White, Richardson, Grant, Theis off the bench would have given the C’s a lot of depth.

Here's what I see:

Brad Stevens traded Denis Schroder, Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford (all flexible to very flexible pieces) and two first round picks for $26-27MM in commitments for the next several seasons for two back-ups. Yes, I know one was a pick swap -- the risk there outweighs the reward, IMO.

You can argue whether White is a back-up, but i think he's the definition of one. He's a small energy guy who excels at nothing and struggles with shooting (as a guard, no less). Upon seeing his downward shooting trend, Pop realized as much and shipped him during the first year of his pricey extension. And Schroder and Richardson are capable back-ups themselves, while Langford has the makings of one.

I think that's poor General Management, especially after sending out our first rounder last year. It's a star driven league -- good teams compile assets like these and / or good players they hit on the draft to acquire difference makers, not Daniel Theis and Derrick White. If the right deal as such doesn't present itself, patience is required -- especially for a team as young as the Cs. You may need to pick well and develop in house. Our hit rate in the draft, is not high in the regard -- but i don't that's an excuse to throw in the towel.

I hear all the talk about fit etc. That White's shooting will rebound and so on. I'm not buyin' it. I find it very hard to conceive of how White and Theis move the needle on this team -- which is still a key piece or two away from serious contention -- at all. Again, the Spurs know White better than anyone. And Theis -- much as he's beloved -- is just a bad contract we bailed Houston out of.

So either Stevens is not a good judge of value and flexibility, he's impatient, he doesn't plan on being around long, or some or all of the above. Whichever way, I think it's bad management. 

[RodyTur10]

This obsession with a 3d star is what has gotten the Lakers where they are at - an aging, mismatched roster with almost no flexibility.

It also got Milwaukee a championship by acquiring Holiday

Is Holiday even a star?  He had one All-Star appearance early in his his career as an injury replacement for Rondo, and that was it.  He’s a very good player, but even as a #2 next to Davis the Pelicans were not a good team.  He fits perfectly as a #3 on the Bucks, but just because he’s the third best player on a title team he isn’t necessarily a star.

If Holiday isn't a star then Brown surely ain't either. By the way, a lot of Bucks fans consider Holiday to be clearly better than Middleton.

[gouki88]

This obsession with a 3d star is what has gotten the Lakers where they are at - an aging, mismatched roster with almost no flexibility.

It also got Milwaukee a championship by acquiring Holiday

Is Holiday even a star?  He had one All-Star appearance early in his his career as an injury replacement for Rondo, and that was it.  He’s a very good player, but even as a #2 next to Davis the Pelicans were not a good team.  He fits perfectly as a #3 on the Bucks, but just because he’s the third best player on a title team he isn’t necessarily a star.

This is where I am at.  I am not even sure that Middleton is a star much less Holiday.  Very good players, complementary to Giannis, for sure, but not stars.

So if this "3rd star" means a PF who is on par with Holiday in terms of "stardom", then yes, that probably is something we need.  Or something that would make the team much better (depending of course on what we have to give up to get this 3rd star).

I am not sure that can happen though, we'll see.

Holiday might not be a star, but a fringe All-Star who plays well on both ends is who I'm envisioning when people talk about adding a third key guy.

[Goldstar88]

The Timelord extension was excellent, the Smart extension fine, the Thompson trade good (though I don't know why we didn't just acquire Wright), and the Richardson deal / extension very good. I'm not a fan of the Horford deal -- I don't like trading 1sts if a star isn't coming in -- but I guess I understand why it was done (if Kemba's bruised ego was simply unbearable for the locker room) so I'd give that a "C" not an "F".

But I thought Brad's first trade deadline was awful --  gave him a "D". Put this in tonite's game thread:

My knife's been out for the White and Theis trades from the start. Liked the team better before the deadline, save for Schroder -- who needed outta here to hunt shots somewhere else (just trade him for a 2nd round pick... it's not complicated).

Brad opened the kimono to his inexperience. I think the Cs took a long-term step back, and I'm disappointed.

What didn’t you like about the Theis trade? Theis for Schroder, Bruno and Kanter seems fair. Now we have a backup 4/5 with decent size at 6’9” who has already been in Boston and played well.

In regards to the White trade, I think it was an overpay, but sometimes you have to do that if you believe the player is a great fit. I don’t think he’s a huge upgrade in terms of talent, but I think Brad valued having another proven point guard with size that can defend at a high level. I’d imagine finding another 3 and D guy is easier than finding a backup PG. Even though Richardson isn’t a point guard, I would have loved to keep him and used the TPE to get White instead.

Having a rotation of Smart, Brown, Tatum, Horford, Timelord with White, Richardson, Grant, Theis off the bench would have given the C’s a lot of depth.

Here's what I see:

Brad Stevens traded Denis Schroder, Josh Richardson, Romeo Langford (all flexible to very flexible pieces) and two first round picks for $26-27MM in commitments for the next several seasons for two back-ups. Yes, I know one was a pick swap -- the risk there outweighs the reward, IMO.

You can argue whether White is a back-up, but i think he's the definition of one. He's a small energy guy who excels at nothing and struggles with shooting (as a guard, no less). Upon seeing his downward shooting trend, Pop realized as much and shipped him during the first year of his pricey extension. And Schroder and Richardson are capable back-ups themselves, while Langford has the makings of one.

I think that's poor General Management, especially after sending out our first rounder last year. It's a star driven league -- good teams compile assets like these and / or good players they hit on the draft to acquire difference makers, not Daniel Theis and Derrick White. If the right deal as such doesn't present itself, patience is required -- especially for a team as young as the Cs. You may need to pick well and develop in house. Our hit rate in the draft, is not high in the regard -- but i don't that's an excuse to throw in the towel.

I hear all the talk about fit etc. That White's shooting will rebound and so on. I'm not buyin' it. I find it very hard to conceive of how White and Theis move the needle on this team -- which is still a key piece or two away from serious contention -- at all. Again, the Spurs know White better than anyone. And Theis -- much as he's beloved -- is just a bad contract we bailed Houston out of.

So either Stevens is not a good judge of value and flexibility, he's impatient, he doesn't plan on being around long, or some or all of the above. Whichever way, I think it's bad management.

I agree on White being a backup, especially on this team, but’s he’s a backup PG with size (6’4”) that plays defense at a high level, which Schroder and Pritchard can’t. If the teams identity is going to be  based on defensive ability, those guys don’t fit. Romeo and Richardson wouldn’t fill that role either as they are 2/3’s.

I also agree that the C’s do need to do a better job drafting and developing talent, but at the same time Brad is trying to win now. He has to give up assets to get the players that he thinks will fit. JB is also only under contract for two more seasons and there is no guarantee that he stays. Theis has two years guaranteed on his current deal $8.5M next season, $9.5M the year after and then it’s a team option. Is he overpaid, probably. But by how much, A few million? He’s a player that has already shown that he can play well in Boston and the C’s desperately needed a PF/C with size. Grant has been shooting the ball very well, but he becomes a liability defensively and struggles to rebound against bigger players.

[Csfan1984]

I hate what BS has done. To me he has sacrificed too much for lateral moves and never addressed the shooting woes.