Does it bother anybody that Ainge apparently wanted Winslow over Porzingis?

[moiso]

Are we really getting upset over an "if" based on a draft rumor?




Isn't there enough about the team at the moment to be frustrated at without this "what if" issue?

I think it goes like this:

1. The current state of the team is frustrating

2. The draft seems like the only way out

3. Therefore, people worry about Ainge's ability to draft us out of this

Huh ?

1) The current state of the team is outstanding.  We're setup to succeed and have youth all over the roster.  Talented youth I might add.

2) You can make trades, you have fantastic picks, and free agency to boot (money to spend)

3) Its's wide open, all setup by Ainge.  You have many options and aren't strapped like the Nets organization.

You're reaching. We have role player youth. Every team has cap space, so the advantage that used to come with it is gone.

The Cs are not close. If your goal is a championship, the two best players on the team are not on it yet. And it's hard to get those guys... cuz every other team needs franchise players too. Let's hope the Nets picks can help us acquire at least one -- whether via draft or trade.

We were supposed to be one of the worst teams in the league last year and overachieved and snuck into the playoffs.  This year's team may not make the playoffs but in my opinion the team has taken a big step forward in terms of player development and assets.  No, we don't have a star yet, but players such as IT, Olynyk, and Crowder have really increased their value.  I definitely think Ainge has done a great job the last few years.
I would have preferred not to have made the playoffs last year, but other than that I am very pleased and I love the position that the team is in right now.

[ssspence]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

 

[ssspence]

Are we really getting upset over an "if" based on a draft rumor?




Isn't there enough about the team at the moment to be frustrated at without this "what if" issue?

I think it goes like this:

1. The current state of the team is frustrating

2. The draft seems like the only way out

3. Therefore, people worry about Ainge's ability to draft us out of this

Huh ?

1) The current state of the team is outstanding.  We're setup to succeed and have youth all over the roster.  Talented youth I might add.

2) You can make trades, you have fantastic picks, and free agency to boot (money to spend)

3) Its's wide open, all setup by Ainge.  You have many options and aren't strapped like the Nets organization.

You're reaching. We have role player youth. Every team has cap space, so the advantage that used to come with it is gone.

The Cs are not close. If your goal is a championship, the two best players on the team are not on it yet. And it's hard to get those guys... cuz every other team needs franchise players too. Let's hope the Nets picks can help us acquire at least one -- whether via draft or trade.

We were supposed to be one of the worst teams in the league last year and overachieved and snuck into the playoffs.  This year's team may not make the playoffs but in my opinion the team has taken a big step forward in terms of player development and assets.  No, we don't have a star yet, but players such as IT, Olynyk, and Crowder have really increased their value.  I definitely think Ainge has done a great job the last few years.
I would have preferred not to have made the playoffs last year, but other than that I am very pleased and I love the position that the team is in right now.

Ainge has done an excellent job. I'm on record since the day it was made stating the Nets deal will likely go down as one of the greatest in NBA history. And he's made other great deals. He's stockplied chips as well as he could have. He's arguably the best transactional GM in the NBA.

But the current state of the team is not "outstanding", for the reasons I stated and others. The team would clearly be better if Ainge had selected successfully in the draft in a number of cases, or even if he'd just hit on one of them.

[Moranis]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

[slamtheking]

Since wiffed on Giorgi deng, Rodney hood, and Hollis Jefferson.  Danny's drafting acumen is fairly poor.  See our current state

and were you on record as wanting all of those players prior to the draft?

I know I was on record as wanting Dieng and Hood.  Dieng has been a decent backup center but not a world beater.  hasn't shown flashes at the level KO has.  I can live with the KO pick.   
I was ok with Young over Hood on draft night though I wanted Hood.  Young is still young while Hood had a couple of years on him.  Young's shown some improvement but not as much as I'd like.  if he hasn't made some significant improvement for next year, I'll go along with it was a really bad pick.

How about picking Olynyk over the Greek Freak?

no issues with that at all.  Greek Freak was pure speculation on potential and he's still not as good as Freak-lovers claim he is.  he's got a lot of athleticism but he's inconsistent just like KO.

[ssspence]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

[slamtheking]

Ainge is 50/50 drafting at BEST...probably 75/25 on trades though...C's should hire somebody to help out with all these picks we have---Ainge has WIFFED Many times in the draft---it's really pathetic at all the guys he has passed up...

2007:Gabe Pruitt instead of Marc Gasol/Josh McRoberts/Aron Grey
2008:JR Giddens instead of D.Jordan/Pekovic/Dragic/Asik
2011:JJ Johnson instead of Jimmy Butler/C.Parsons/I.Thomas
2012:Fab Melo instead of Draymond Green/Jae Crowder/Khris Middleton
2015 Rozier instead of Portis (still up in the air-but doesn't look good)

There are some EPIC misses during Ainge's tenure--and I know lots of teams passed on those players too...BUT---Geeze---Gabe Pruitt--? JR Giddens-? JJ Johnson-? Fab freaking Melo--?...he has almost NO CLUE how to evaluate talent.

I'm kinda hoping Ainge trades ALL of our picks---cause he's just gonna BLOW them.

nothing like cherry picking to try to make your point. 

just curious, can you point to your older posts that show those were the players you wanted in those drafts?

Pruitt --> 2nd round pick and you're harping on this?  kid had the skills but not the drive to succeed.     of those you listed, Gasol was the only real player of impact.  lots of teams missed on him, including the Lakers who had him and used him as a throw-in to Memphis for his brother.  Pruitt was taken about where he was projected to go so it's not like he was a complete mystery pick.

Giddens-->this one I'll go along with.  bad pick and was panned when it was made particularly with players projected to be better than him still on the board.

JJ Johnson --> considering who was still on the board and this guy's skill set, this was a valid pick.  not upset with this since it was in the 20's and those picks are crapshoots.  The primary other player being mentioned at that time was Marshon Brooks and we all saw how he worked out.  I get that the C's supposedly liked Parsons but didn't take him so that may be a valid concern but when a player slides to the second round that turns out to be pretty good, that "wiff" is on every GM, not just Ainge

Fab-->yeah, he sucked and 98% of posters said so.  wanted PJIII myself but he hasn't set the world on fire either.  sure, the guys that slid to the second round were better but there's a lot of first rounders from that deep draft that have been disappointments, not just Fab.

Rozier-->halfway through his rookie season and you've already labeled him a bust?  sure, I wanted Portis too and couldn't fathom why Danny passed on him but Rozier has shown some flashes that he can run point.  I'll give him this year and next before I label him a bust.

the thing I can't help but notice is you pulled out 5 picks in 9 drafts where Danny made a number of picks.  1 is a second round pick, 1 is a rookie.  not a whole lot here to support your opinion.  I also notice that you ignore the evaluation of the picks you omitted as well as earlier years.  is that because you'd have to begrudgingly admit Ainge is better than you give him credit for?  also, I notice you don't compare his performance to his peers for draft results.  is that because when he's compared to his peers, you'd have to admit he's at the top level in terms of finding players that can actually play in the league?

Ummm--I started off saying Ainge was 50/50 at drafting....so I was just pointing out the bad stuff
And---I did say that the Rozier pick was Still up in the air

maybe You like to cherry pick what I write---?

And if Ainge had just picked ONE of Gasol/Green/Jordan/Parsons/Butler...
we would be a much better team---just ONE, not ALL.

FYI--I Love Danny as our GM---wouldn't want anyone else---but he needs to get someone in there, who is better than him at evaluating young and foreign Talent.

how am I cherrypicking when I addressed each of your specific points.  I didn't skip any to suit my argument.  Even acknowledged the picks I agree were bad.  Your direct statement was "Ainge has WIFFED Many times in the draft---it's really pathetic at all the guys he has passed up

That's a pretty [dang]ing statement that was unsupported by what you presented as the basis of your opinion.  5 times out of how many picks doesn't meet the level of "wiffing many times". 

so, let's look back and see how he did overall to see if he's wiffing that much on his picks.  His first draft was 2003 so here's what he's done:
2003: Drafted Troy Bell and Dahntay Jones and flipped them for Marcus Banks and Kendrick Perkins.  That's a win as far as I'm concerned regardless of how you feel about Banks (some here think he sucks but the guy had a fairly lengthy career with multiple teams).  He also drafted Brandon Hunter who was pretty decent for a second round player -- made the team as the #56 pick.  no misses there
2004:Drafted Big Al, Tony Allen, Delonte and Justin Reed.  Not a miss in the bunch.
2005:Drafted Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes and Orien Greene.  Gomes and Green were key pieces of the KG trade so I wouldn't call those misses.  Orien Greene made the team as a #53 pick and while not a great player, was better than expected and played some big backup minutes at PG when we had no one else.  no misses there either.
2006: Randy Foye but was used in the deal with Portland to get Telfair and Ratliff.  2 key pieces to the KG deal.  not a miss
2007: Jeff Green and Gabe Pruitt.  Green went in the deal for Ray.  that's a winner.  Pruitt at #32 was one of your examples.  not a bad pick considering where he was picked and the skills he had.  Also, picked up Big Baby at #35 who was a key piece to the title run.  pretty solid draft -- not seeing the miss
2008:JR Giddens and Semih Erden.  Giddens -- probably the biggest bust he's had and certainly the first one even though this was the #30 pick.  too much other talent on the board here to give him a pass.  Semih, as the last player picked, wasn't half bad.  showed some potential until he was injured.
2009: Lester Hudson at #58.  Can't call anyone picked at that spot a bust especially since he got some minutes with us and was able to get back into the league after dropping out for a little while.  not a miss
2010: Avery Bradley and Luke Harangody.  AB -- enough said.  not a bust whether you like him or not.  Harangody, not horrible but at #52 he could hardly be considered a bust.  no misses here.
2011: Marshon Brooks flipped for JJ Johnson.  At the time, these were the top 2 players on everyone's board.  hard to call either one a miss even though both played for the C's and neither was particularly good.  The only possible way to label this a busted pick is if you claim it should have been Parsons because the C's had a lot of contact with him.  They also picked E'twaun Moore at #55.  E'twaun's still in the league getting minutes so he's far from a missed pick. 
2012:Sully, Melo and Kris Joseph.  Sully - very solid pick especially where he was taken.  has outperformed a number of players taken before him.  Melo was the bust almost everyone expected.  Kris Joseph stuck around for a cup of coffee which is better than most players taken at #51.  Melo -- Danny's second bust.
2013:Lucas Nogeira flipped for KO.  good trade because KO is the better player.  Sure, there's other players that most people here preferred but KO's about as good as a #13 pick usually ends up and he's outperformed a number of players taken ahead of him.  you can still debate over which player taken after KO looks so much better but there really isn't anyone you can point to that's all-star material.  this one's not a bust.  Danny also bought the Colton Iverson pick at #53.  not a bad longshot to take.  kid hasn't played in the NBA but neither have most players picked that late.  Not sure he'll pan out but wouldn't label him a wiff.
2014:Smart and Young.  Smart -- incredible D.  can't argue that he doesn't provide that every night.  his offense needs work but still too early to call him a wiff which I don't he'll ever be considered.  Young, yeah, he could be a wiff in light of who was still available.  will give him until next year to show he's worth some rotation minutes before I'll go along with him as a wiff.
2015:Rozier, Hunter, Mickey and Thornton.  Hunter and Mickey seem to be universally considered great picks by Danny especially where they were taken.  Thornton's a mystery pick but the word is he was the player that agreed to go oversees to be stashed.  Rozier, I get.  Wanted Portis really badly myself and the Rozier pick came out of nowhere for me.  The kid seems to have talent.  Whether that translates into him being a good player, at least as good as Portis is looking to be, is a matter of time.  Too early to label him a wiff though I do get the frustration with the pick.

so, now that we've put the full draft perspective on the table, please explain why you think "Ainge has WIFFED Many times in the draft".  that's 31 picks since Danny's been here.  I don't think I missed any but it's possible.  2 were clearly wiffs in Giddens and Melo.  Having 2 out of 31 picks in 13 drafts turn out to be wiffs is not a 50/50 performance.  far from it.  If you want to say Ainge hasn't picked who YOU wanted him to pick, that's a different story.

[Moranis]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

There are only 5 players from 2012 that you can say for sure would have been drafted ahead of Sullinger in a re-draft today.  Davis, Drummond, Lillard, Barnes, and Green.  Beal, MKG, and Middleton are also possible though aren't a given.  That would put Sullinger at 9.  You can argue some others, but I think he would go 8 or 9.

For support, Sullinger is 7th in ppg, 3rd in rpg, and 10th in apg.  He is 17th in games, but 11th in minutes.  He is 7th in BPM and 6th in VORP.   He would go in the top 10 in a redraft.  The only person drafted after him that would clearly be ahead of him in the redraft is Draymond Green. He was selected 21st, that is a very clear winning pick for Ainge. 

[kozlodoev]

And he also wanted Durant over Oden. You win some, you lose some. And it's still too early to say what the Heat have in JW.

[moiso]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

There are only 5 players from 2012 that you can say for sure would have been drafted ahead of Sullinger in a re-draft today.  Davis, Drummond, Lillard, Barnes, and Green.  Beal, MKG, and Middleton are also possible though aren't a given.  That would put Sullinger at 9.  You can argue some others, but I think he would go 8 or 9.

For support, Sullinger is 7th in ppg, 3rd in rpg, and 10th in apg.  He is 17th in games, but 11th in minutes.  He is 7th in BPM and 6th in VORP.   He would go in the top 10 in a redraft.  The only person drafted after him that would clearly be ahead of him in the redraft is Draymond Green. He was selected 21st, that is a very clear winning pick for Ainge.

Beal and Middleton are givens.

[LooseCannon]

Ainge is 50/50 drafting at BEST...probably 75/25 on trades though...C's should hire somebody to help out with all these picks we have---Ainge has WIFFED Many times in the draft---it's really pathetic at all the guys he has passed up...

2007:Gabe Pruitt instead of Marc Gasol/Josh McRoberts/Aron Grey
2008:JR Giddens instead of D.Jordan/Pekovic/Dragic/Asik
2011:JJ Johnson instead of Jimmy Butler/C.Parsons/I.Thomas
2012:Fab Melo instead of Draymond Green/Jae Crowder/Khris Middleton
2015 Rozier instead of Portis (still up in the air-but doesn't look good)

There are some EPIC misses during Ainge's tenure--and I know lots of teams passed on those players too...BUT---Geeze---Gabe Pruitt--? JR Giddens-? JJ Johnson-? Fab freaking Melo--?...he has almost NO CLUE how to evaluate talent.

I'm kinda hoping Ainge trades ALL of our picks---cause he's just gonna BLOW them.

nothing like cherry picking to try to make your point. 

just curious, can you point to your older posts that show those were the players you wanted in those drafts?

Pruitt --> 2nd round pick and you're harping on this?  kid had the skills but not the drive to succeed.     of those you listed, Gasol was the only real player of impact.  lots of teams missed on him, including the Lakers who had him and used him as a throw-in to Memphis for his brother.  Pruitt was taken about where he was projected to go so it's not like he was a complete mystery pick.

Giddens-->this one I'll go along with.  bad pick and was panned when it was made particularly with players projected to be better than him still on the board.

JJ Johnson --> considering who was still on the board and this guy's skill set, this was a valid pick.  not upset with this since it was in the 20's and those picks are crapshoots.  The primary other player being mentioned at that time was Marshon Brooks and we all saw how he worked out.  I get that the C's supposedly liked Parsons but didn't take him so that may be a valid concern but when a player slides to the second round that turns out to be pretty good, that "wiff" is on every GM, not just Ainge

Fab-->yeah, he sucked and 98% of posters said so.  wanted PJIII myself but he hasn't set the world on fire either.  sure, the guys that slid to the second round were better but there's a lot of first rounders from that deep draft that have been disappointments, not just Fab.

Rozier-->halfway through his rookie season and you've already labeled him a bust?  sure, I wanted Portis too and couldn't fathom why Danny passed on him but Rozier has shown some flashes that he can run point.  I'll give him this year and next before I label him a bust.

the thing I can't help but notice is you pulled out 5 picks in 9 drafts where Danny made a number of picks.  1 is a second round pick, 1 is a rookie.  not a whole lot here to support your opinion.  I also notice that you ignore the evaluation of the picks you omitted as well as earlier years.  is that because you'd have to begrudgingly admit Ainge is better than you give him credit for?  also, I notice you don't compare his performance to his peers for draft results.  is that because when he's compared to his peers, you'd have to admit he's at the top level in terms of finding players that can actually play in the league?

Ummm--I started off saying Ainge was 50/50 at drafting....so I was just pointing out the bad stuff
And---I did say that the Rozier pick was Still up in the air

maybe You like to cherry pick what I write---?

And if Ainge had just picked ONE of Gasol/Green/Jordan/Parsons/Butler...
we would be a much better team---just ONE, not ALL.

FYI--I Love Danny as our GM---wouldn't want anyone else---but he needs to get someone in there, who is better than him at evaluating young and foreign Talent.

Do you believe that being 50/50 at drafting makes a GM above average, average, or below average when it comes to drafting?

[Moranis]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

There are only 5 players from 2012 that you can say for sure would have been drafted ahead of Sullinger in a re-draft today.  Davis, Drummond, Lillard, Barnes, and Green.  Beal, MKG, and Middleton are also possible though aren't a given.  That would put Sullinger at 9.  You can argue some others, but I think he would go 8 or 9.

For support, Sullinger is 7th in ppg, 3rd in rpg, and 10th in apg.  He is 17th in games, but 11th in minutes.  He is 7th in BPM and 6th in VORP.   He would go in the top 10 in a redraft.  The only person drafted after him that would clearly be ahead of him in the redraft is Draymond Green. He was selected 21st, that is a very clear winning pick for Ainge.

Beal and Middleton are givens.

I'm not so sure.  Beal has played less games than Sullinger has and had taken a step back between year 2 and 3, though did jump back up for this year before he was hurt. 

Middleton is an excellent shooter, but he doesn't do much else. 

Because we see Sullinger every day we know all his flaws, and tend to overlook his strengths.  If we saw Middleton and Beal everyday, I'm not so sure you would take them over Sullinger who has better numbers in many of the key categories.

[moiso]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

There are only 5 players from 2012 that you can say for sure would have been drafted ahead of Sullinger in a re-draft today.  Davis, Drummond, Lillard, Barnes, and Green.  Beal, MKG, and Middleton are also possible though aren't a given.  That would put Sullinger at 9.  You can argue some others, but I think he would go 8 or 9.

For support, Sullinger is 7th in ppg, 3rd in rpg, and 10th in apg.  He is 17th in games, but 11th in minutes.  He is 7th in BPM and 6th in VORP.   He would go in the top 10 in a redraft.  The only person drafted after him that would clearly be ahead of him in the redraft is Draymond Green. He was selected 21st, that is a very clear winning pick for Ainge.

Beal and Middleton are givens.

I'm not so sure.  Beal has played less games than Sullinger has and had taken a step back between year 2 and 3, though did jump back up for this year before he was hurt. 

Middleton is an excellent shooter, but he doesn't do much else. 

Because we see Sullinger every day we know all his flaws, and tend to overlook his strengths.  If we saw Middleton and Beal everyday, I'm not so sure you would take them over Sullinger who has better numbers in many of the key categories.

I think those two are currently better players, but I would also consider that Sullinger might already be at his peak due to his athleticism.  Also, power forward prospects that struggle with weight issues generally seem to have pretty short careers.

[ssspence]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

There are only 5 players from 2012 that you can say for sure would have been drafted ahead of Sullinger in a re-draft today.  Davis, Drummond, Lillard, Barnes, and Green.  Beal, MKG, and Middleton are also possible though aren't a given.  That would put Sullinger at 9.  You can argue some others, but I think he would go 8 or 9.

For support, Sullinger is 7th in ppg, 3rd in rpg, and 10th in apg.  He is 17th in games, but 11th in minutes.  He is 7th in BPM and 6th in VORP.   He would go in the top 10 in a redraft.  The only person drafted after him that would clearly be ahead of him in the redraft is Draymond Green. He was selected 21st, that is a very clear winning pick for Ainge.

Beal and Middleton are givens.

I'm not so sure.  Beal has played less games than Sullinger has and had taken a step back between year 2 and 3, though did jump back up for this year before he was hurt. 

Middleton is an excellent shooter, but he doesn't do much else. 

Because we see Sullinger every day we know all his flaws, and tend to overlook his strengths.  If we saw Middleton and Beal everyday, I'm not so sure you would take them over Sullinger who has better numbers in many of the key categories.

This is precisely why I didn't make a list and post it. Because only on Cs blog can folks pretend there's a "would you draft Beal or Sully" debate. Or a "would you draft Middleton or Sully" debate. Be serious.

Plenty of teams would rather have MKG than Sully. Plenty of teams would rather have Crowder over Sully. Plenty of teams would rather have Ezeli than Sully. Plenty of teams would rather have Fournier over Sully.

[Moranis]

A couple summers ago, I went through every draft pick Ainge has made and put the picks into three categories all based on if the draft had happened today where would the player have been drafted.  The three categories were Higher, Same general range, Lower.  Ainge was split about evenly in the categories.  So he is an average drafter.  He had some real home runs i.e. Rondo, Jefferson, Sullinger, and Davis, but also had plenty of disastrous misses like Melo, Johnson, Pruitt, and Giddens, and then of course he had the guys that would have been about the same like West, G. Green, Banks, and Bradley (though Bradley is probably higher and Banks lower today).  If you looked at it again there may be some movement of categories, but I think the misses would probably have about the same numbers as the hits.

Sullinger was not a home run. He was not a diamond in the rough, unearthed by Ainge. Sully fell into Ainge's lap, and he's a limited role player, so... good pick, but not some feat of scouting.

Ainge made a number of good picks in his early years. Jefferson, West, Allen, Perk, Davis, and Gomes were high value at their slots. Buying the Rondo pick was his height.

But since? Average at best. A lot of guys out of the league. Those who are still around are mostly average players, or worse. And many All-Stars selected after his picks.

Who is Ainge's best pick since Rondo, considering the slot, and the players taken before and after in that draft? Bradley? It's just been too long since Ainge has hit on an All-Star caliber pick.

Sullinger was picked 21st.  In a redraft he goes in the back half of the top 10.  That is a homerun pick for value.  I agree it was a no brainer, but he was a no brainer for about 10 picks before the Celtics and no other team picked him.  That said Ainge picked Melo 22nd that draft and in a redraft he might not even get drafted.  Far bigger miss than Sullinger was a hit.

Fair enough, though I don't agree he'd be picked in the top 10 of that draft if it were done over today. But that's only half the discussion. Ainge can't control who was picked before the Cs slot -- only those available at the time of the pick. And better prospects were taken after Sully (and Melo).

Overall, I'd say the 2012 draft was average at best for the Cs. With two 1sts they got 1 rotation player.

There are only 5 players from 2012 that you can say for sure would have been drafted ahead of Sullinger in a re-draft today.  Davis, Drummond, Lillard, Barnes, and Green.  Beal, MKG, and Middleton are also possible though aren't a given.  That would put Sullinger at 9.  You can argue some others, but I think he would go 8 or 9.

For support, Sullinger is 7th in ppg, 3rd in rpg, and 10th in apg.  He is 17th in games, but 11th in minutes.  He is 7th in BPM and 6th in VORP.   He would go in the top 10 in a redraft.  The only person drafted after him that would clearly be ahead of him in the redraft is Draymond Green. He was selected 21st, that is a very clear winning pick for Ainge.

Beal and Middleton are givens.

I'm not so sure.  Beal has played less games than Sullinger has and had taken a step back between year 2 and 3, though did jump back up for this year before he was hurt. 

Middleton is an excellent shooter, but he doesn't do much else. 

Because we see Sullinger every day we know all his flaws, and tend to overlook his strengths.  If we saw Middleton and Beal everyday, I'm not so sure you would take them over Sullinger who has better numbers in many of the key categories.

This is precisely why I didn't make a list and post it. Because only on Cs blog can folks pretend there's a "would you draft Beal or Sully" debate. Or a "would you draft Middleton or Sully" debate. Be serious.

Plenty of teams would rather have MKG than Sully. Plenty of teams would rather have Crowder over Sully. Plenty of teams would rather have Ezeli than Sully. Plenty of teams would rather have Fournier over Sully.

Sullinger is an excellent rebounder and has very strong post skills.  He shoots way too many threes (though has reduced that this year) and isn't a very good defender (though he isn't as bad as he is made out to be on here).  I think people on here are way too hard on him.  He has many positive attributes that this board does a great job of ignoring.