Big Man Options

[keevsnick]

So one thing you keep running into with the Celtics is their lack of mid range salaries making it hard to build trades. With that  in mind I wonder if it might be worth looking into acquiring a lower range "mid level" type contract like that of Dwayne Dedmon with the purpose of reflipping him in the summer for a guy like Turner, Sabonis or Capela.

To illustrate Dwayne makes 13.33 but you only need to send 8.33 out to acquire him. He could then be used to acquire a guy making 18.33 next summer (more if aggregated).

Or maybe I'm just really over thinking this.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

So one thing you keep running into with the Celtics is their lack of mid range salaries making it hard to build trades. With that  in mind I wonder if it might be worth looking into acquiring a lower range "mid level" type contract like that of Dwayne Dedmon with the purpose of reflipping him in the summer for a guy like Turner, Sabonis or Capela.

To illustrate Dwayne makes 13.33 but you only need to send 8.33 out to acquire him. He could then be used to acquire a guy making 18.33 next summer (more if aggregated).

Or maybe I'm just really over thinking this.

It's a good thought. This is a safe place to express your ideas 

I guess I'm thinking more along the line of the immediate need. I still think Williams is the long-term answer, but to sure up the immediate need, especially if we are plagued with injuried (Theis has a history and Kanter has been out), we need someone who can a solid rotation guy.

Dedmon might be that option. I will say that I'm of the opinion that Dedmon is not an option as a good defender on a good team. He might be a good defender on a bad team. He might make the occasional play. I think Kanter, Theis, and Williams are all better options, even with the inconsistency and weaknesses.

[keevsnick]

So one thing you keep running into with the Celtics is their lack of mid range salaries making it hard to build trades. With that  in mind I wonder if it might be worth looking into acquiring a lower range "mid level" type contract like that of Dwayne Dedmon with the purpose of reflipping him in the summer for a guy like Turner, Sabonis or Capela.

To illustrate Dwayne makes 13.33 but you only need to send 8.33 out to acquire him. He could then be used to acquire a guy making 18.33 next summer (more if aggregated).

Or maybe I'm just really over thinking this.

It's a good thought. This is a safe place to express your ideas 

I guess I'm thinking more along the line of the immediate need. I still think Williams is the long-term answer, but to sure up the immediate need, especially if we are plagued with injuried (Theis has a history and Kanter has been out), we need someone who can a solid rotation guy.

Dedmon might be that option. I will say that I'm of the opinion that Dedmon is not an option as a good defender on a good team. He might be a good defender on a bad team. He might make the occasional play. I think Kanter, Theis, and Williams are all better options, even with the inconsistency and weaknesses.

Ya thats fair, dedmon probably isnt really that big of an upgrade if at all.

[mmmmm]

The season is very young.

But at least so far, I don't think we've lost any games due to our supposed shortcomings at the 5.

We lost game 1 because Jayson and Kemba both shot like ice-cold crap and Enes (who otherwise had a great game) was bizarrely ice-cold from the FT line.

Those things haven't all happened since and whaddaya know?  We keep winning.

Count me in the, "I'm fine with our center-by-committee approach." group.

We have 4 starters who could all be averaging close to 20 points by season's end and we have the ability to put a wide variety of different looks at the "5" based on match ups.   This team is very dangerous as is.

Sure, it would be awesome to put some super-star big man out there to make it a 5-wide all-star quality lineup.   But that's just not realistic.   And for any reasonable price that we are likely to be able to pay without disrupting all the good things with this team, I just don't see any such needle-mover out there.

[keevsnick]

The season is very young.

But at least so far, I don't think we've lost any games due to our supposed shortcomings at the 5.

We lost game 1 because Jayson and Kemba both shot like ice-cold crap and Enes (who otherwise had a great game) was bizarrely ice-cold from the FT line.

Those things haven't all happened since and whaddaya know?  We keep winning.

Count me in the, "I'm fine with our center-by-committee approach." group.

We have 4 starters who could all be averaging close to 20 points by season's end and we have the ability to put a wide variety of different looks at the "5" based on match ups.   This team is very dangerous as is.

Sure, it would be awesome to put some super-star big man out there to make it a 5-wide all-star quality lineup.   But that's just not realistic.   And for any reasonable price that we are likely to be able to pay without disrupting all the good things with this team, I just don't see any such needle-mover out there.

Ya but the center issue isn't about how they perform in the regular season, I have no doubt they can win a lot without any changes. Its a matter of if its good enough when you reach the highest levels of MIL, PHIL and the Western Champion. I think right now most unbiased observers would say "probably not," but we'll see how the season develops.

[ETNCeltics]

People keep trying to move puzzle pieces around to form a traditional line up with a 4 and 5, but that's not Brad Stevens. He doesn't want that. The Celtics have had ample opportunity in Stevens time here to go after a big man, they don't. The one move for a big they made was Al, and he was hardly a traditional big. He was a 4 who played 5, but didn't have the traditional game of either. He was a good defensive player one on one, but not a rim protector, not a rebounder, and he rarely posted up.

My guess is give Stevens and Ainge another good asset - like say the Memphis pick turns gold 18 months from now - and I'd wager that unless there's a superstar talent like James Wiseman there - Ainge will take the best guard or wing available. 

They draft guards and wings, and take spare parts for bigs. It's pretty obvious that they don't prioritize bigs, and I don't expect that to change as long as CBS is our coach. Can't recall who, but some of you have said "it's a big man's game." Nope. It's a perimeter man's game. Look who wins titles, GSW, Lebron and Kyrie, Kawhi in Toronto and SA. You want a title, you have to be elite on the perimeter.

[mmmmm]

The season is very young.

But at least so far, I don't think we've lost any games due to our supposed shortcomings at the 5.

We lost game 1 because Jayson and Kemba both shot like ice-cold crap and Enes (who otherwise had a great game) was bizarrely ice-cold from the FT line.

Those things haven't all happened since and whaddaya know?  We keep winning.

Count me in the, "I'm fine with our center-by-committee approach." group.

We have 4 starters who could all be averaging close to 20 points by season's end and we have the ability to put a wide variety of different looks at the "5" based on match ups.   This team is very dangerous as is.

Sure, it would be awesome to put some super-star big man out there to make it a 5-wide all-star quality lineup.   But that's just not realistic.   And for any reasonable price that we are likely to be able to pay without disrupting all the good things with this team, I just don't see any such needle-mover out there.

Ya but the center issue isn't about how they perform in the regular season, I have no doubt they can win a lot without any changes. Its a matter of if its good enough when you reach the highest levels of MIL, PHIL and the Western Champion. I think right now most unbiased observers would say "probably not," but we'll see how the season develops.

The title has been contended for in recent years with 'superstar' centers with names like Bogut, Zaza, Mosgov, McGee, ... and often with them sitting on the bench in favor of small lineups.

I think the overall effectiveness of a 5-man lineup still is the more important factor than whether it has a star at any one position.  And that holds true in the playoffs as well.

Who exactly are these "unbiased observers" of which you speak, anyway?

[JBcat]

The problem with Thompson and other players close in salary is that just to match salaries we are kind of overpaying in talent to just get there.  Maybe we should trade back for Ante Zizic.     I was high on him pre draft.   

Seriously it might be better to look at low salary guys as a better match.  One name I’m going to through out there is Willy Cauley Stein.  WCS doesn’t make much, and it would be much easier to match salaries in a trade.  The Warriors are essentially tanking now so they would probably be a willing trade partner.

With that said there is plenty of time to ride this out until the trade deadline to see how things look.   Maybe Robert Williams progresses much more, Poirier adapts much more to the NBA game, Grant Williams can play the small ball C at times,  and Theis and Kanter in consistent minutes can hold their own. Oh and Tacko makes a “giant” leap in his game.  There is also the buyout market where we could maybe find our next PJ Brown.

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Probably not anything, yet, but the Raptors lost Ibaka and Lowry to injuries that will probably keep them out for at least weeks, if not a month or so.

Something to monitor, because if the Raptors struggle, they could tank and look to trade Gasol. We can't trade for him, but if they can't get a deal done, they could buy him out.

[NKY fan]

So one thing you keep running into with the Celtics is their lack of mid range salaries making it hard to build trades. With that  in mind I wonder if it might be worth looking into acquiring a lower range "mid level" type contract like that of Dwayne Dedmon with the purpose of reflipping him in the summer for a guy like Turner, Sabonis or Capela.

To illustrate Dwayne makes 13.33 but you only need to send 8.33 out to acquire him. He could then be used to acquire a guy making 18.33 next summer (more if aggregated).

Or maybe I'm just really over thinking this.

Danny doesn’t think that way otherwise we would have traded Yabu for Dwight Howard in the summer....
 instead of stretch and waving Yabu we could have had a decent center (in Dwight) and roll in higher salary for future trades

[Surferdad]

People keep trying to move puzzle pieces around to form a traditional line up with a 4 and 5, but that's not Brad Stevens. He doesn't want that. The Celtics have had ample opportunity in Stevens time here to go after a big man, they don't. The one move for a big they made was Al, and he was hardly a traditional big. He was a 4 who played 5, but didn't have the traditional game of either. He was a good defensive player one on one, but not a rim protector, not a rebounder, and he rarely posted up.

My guess is give Stevens and Ainge another good asset - like say the Memphis pick turns gold 18 months from now - and I'd wager that unless there's a superstar talent like James Wiseman there - Ainge will take the best guard or wing available. 

They draft guards and wings, and take spare parts for bigs. It's pretty obvious that they don't prioritize bigs, and I don't expect that to change as long as CBS is our coach. Can't recall who, but some of you have said "it's a big man's game." Nope. It's a perimeter man's game. Look who wins titles, GSW, Lebron and Kyrie, Kawhi in Toronto and SA. You want a title, you have to be elite on the perimeter.

I understand your point, but I think it's oversimplified.  At all depends on which big man.  Ainge would have traded for Anthony Davis (and likely included Tatum in the deal) if it was possible.

[liam]

The problem with Thompson and other players close in salary is that just to match salaries we are kind of overpaying in talent to just get there.  Maybe we should trade back for Ante Zizic.     I was high on him pre draft.   

Seriously it might be better to look at low salary guys as a better match.  One name I’m going to through out there is Willy Cauley Stein.  WCS doesn’t make much, and it would be much easier to match salaries in a trade.  The Warriors are essentially tanking now so they would probably be a willing trade partner.

With that said there is plenty of time to ride this out until the trade deadline to see how things look.   Maybe Robert Williams progresses much more, Poirier adapts much more to the NBA game, Grant Williams can play the small ball C at times,  and Theis and Kanter in consistent minutes can hold their own. Oh and Tacko makes a “giant” leap in his game.  There is also the buyout market where we could maybe find our next PJ Brown.

I watched WCS the other night and even though he's coming back from injury he didn't look good at all.

[keevsnick]

The season is very young.

But at least so far, I don't think we've lost any games due to our supposed shortcomings at the 5.

We lost game 1 because Jayson and Kemba both shot like ice-cold crap and Enes (who otherwise had a great game) was bizarrely ice-cold from the FT line.

Those things haven't all happened since and whaddaya know?  We keep winning.

Count me in the, "I'm fine with our center-by-committee approach." group.

We have 4 starters who could all be averaging close to 20 points by season's end and we have the ability to put a wide variety of different looks at the "5" based on match ups.   This team is very dangerous as is.

Sure, it would be awesome to put some super-star big man out there to make it a 5-wide all-star quality lineup.   But that's just not realistic.   And for any reasonable price that we are likely to be able to pay without disrupting all the good things with this team, I just don't see any such needle-mover out there.

Ya but the center issue isn't about how they perform in the regular season, I have no doubt they can win a lot without any changes. Its a matter of if its good enough when you reach the highest levels of MIL, PHIL and the Western Champion. I think right now most unbiased observers would say "probably not," but we'll see how the season develops.

The title has been contended for in recent years with 'superstar' centers with names like Bogut, Zaza, Mosgov, McGee, ... and often with them sitting on the bench in favor of small lineups.

I think the overall effectiveness of a 5-man lineup still is the more important factor than whether it has a star at any one position.  And that holds true in the playoffs as well.

Who exactly are these "unbiased observers" of which you speak, anyway?

I think you are confusing the issue here. Nobody is talking about adding a star at the center position. I specifically avoided stars when compiling this list because I dont think its feasible this year to add one. This above bolded is exactly WHY we should be trying to upgrade center, because it is the C's weakest position and hence both the easiest to upgrade and the most likely to upgrade to lead to substantial gains because of the importance of team defense at the center position.

And thank you for proving my point. The golden state warriors dominated the last five year in part because of Draymond Greene, who even if he's not 7' feet tall is one of the best defensive big men in the league. And they had two MVO level platers which (checks notes) the C's do not.

Meanwhile even the Raptors had two big mean in Gasol and Ibaka better than anything the C's have. The Cavs had Tristan Thompson who at the time was as amazing switch defender big man and a superb rebounder. The Lakers had Pau Gasol. The heat had Shaq, the Spurs had Duncan. If the Celtics were to win anything with this big man rotation it would be almost unprecedented.

To your last point, who are the unbiased observers? Listen to any national NBA podcast or read almost any season preview article.

[dannyboy35]

  I like the idea of trading Smart/ Theis/ Kanter/ Langford, maybe our own pick for Adams?  I’d be tempted to do that for a Kevin Love as well but I’m not sure the d wouldn’t fall apart with Love just being no resistance on that end.
  But Kemba, Jaylen, Hayward, Tatum, Adams is pretty nice. We’d then need to bolster the bench back some though. Can this team challenge the Clippers though? Eh.

[Jvalin]

Myles Turner (17.5)(17.5)(17.5)(17.5)

With Sabonis signed and Bitadze drafted might be the odd man out long teerm. Much imporved defendr last year (2.7 block a game!), and can stretch the floor a bit (38% on 2.6 a game). Salary is totaly reasonable, locked up long term and is young. Would require sedning Gordon Hayward (and picks/young guys) and taking back additional salary from pacers, or sending Smart and picks/young guys. Probably the idela ong term fit for our needs.

Agreed that Turner would be a great fit for the C's. Not sure whether Indy would be willing to move on from him though.

Assuming Hayward maintains his current form till the deadline, would you guys trade him for Turner + filler(s)?

Alternatively, how about

Hayward + Smart + Langford (Indiana native) for Turner + Brogdon

Would the C's do it? Would Indy do it?

starting line-up after the trade

Kemba
Brogdon
Brown
Tatum
Turner