Banta-Cain Released

[yall hate]

Well wait a second. yes and no.  It's not too early to judge some of the young guys when they are going against other young guys. For example. Wheatley. 2nd rounder. I'm not judging him harshly as a bad pick when another young guy (Whilhite) taken later in the same draft beats him out.
I don't think I'm being harsh on Crable to say he's done nothing but get hurt. You can't tell me they don't wish they had that pick back.
I'm not asking Volmer to beat out a Pro Bowler like Light. I'm asking him to beat out Kaczur who isn't that great and is also young. Maybe by the end of the year he will, but I don't think it's asking too much of a 2nd rounder to beat out a young guy who is struggling
I'm not being unfair to Brace who doesn't see the field when our 6th rounder (Pryor) does.
I'm not being unfair to K O'Connel when he gets beat out by a younger undrafted kid (Hoyer)
I'm not going to complain about T MacKenzie who got hurt. Not yet. You can't predict injury
I'm fine waiting on Butler and Chung for now
I'm even fine on Ohlberg for a year until the free agency situation with Mankins and Neal clears up

But it's not asking too much for 1rst and 2nd rounders picked at positions of need to play and play reasonably well..like Butler. 

Volmer was widely expected to be many years away.  he has been playing football for only a few years.

[nickagneta]

Actually Volmer had an outstanding game subbing in for the injured Light the last game +. Butler has looked very good as a cover DB. Chung had an interception last game and has shown to be a very strong presence in the dime package. Myron Pryor has been getting some time in on the interior of the DL and making some plays. And let's not forget what Edelman is doing, you know our third leading receiver and best kickoff and punt return man.

Then in 2007 we hit it huge. We gathered in Merriweather and got Randy Moss for a 4th rounder and Wes Welker for a lower pick. 2006 was a bit of a disaster but one really strike out year in a decade of home runs is fine by me. 2005, we had Mankins, Hobbs, Kazcur, Cassell and Sanders. 2004, Wilfork, Benjamin and Marquis Hill and traded for Corey Dillon. From 2003 on he had spectacular drafts.

I really think someone is being way, way, way to harsh on Belichick's draft history given where the Patriots are supposed to be drafting, the shear number of productive valuable players they have drafted, the extremely successful trades made to obtain superstars and the fact that they were forced to forfeit a first rounder for a BS reason.

[Cman]

Didn't Vollmer start in place of Light and do a good job?

If we are going to talk about 2nd rounders, do we include the fact that in '07 BB traded one (or two) for Wes Welker?

Edit: Nick, you beat me to it.

[Chris]

I don't trust BB as much as I used to. He has really blown a lot of top picks lately, but I have to think that they must be really confident doing this.

You are thinking of 2006 and Maroney, I assume.  Because other than that, in recent years BB has been really good on draft day, IMHO:

First Round Picks:
'04: Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson
'05: Logan Mankins
'07: Brandon Merriweather
'08: Mayo
'09: No first rounder picked (and too early to tell, anyway)

No. Not exactly. I said "top picks"

Bb just used to do better is all. For example he picked Koppen in the 5th and he started from day one. This year he picked Volmer in the 2nd and he isn't starting. he traded up for Ohlberg in the 4th and he sits the bench. And Bussey (5th I think) is on the practice squad. And this despite the offensive line not exactly lighting it up.

He picked 2 TEs in the 1rst round two years in a row and neither did much. He also picked one in the 3rd and he doesn't do anything

Kevin O'Connell was picked in the 3rd and cut after a year.

Yes there's maroney and Merriwether took a while to help

Wheatley in the 2nd round last year is barely on the team

Ron Brace in the 2nd hasn't played almost at all this year

Crable (3rd i think) has done nothing in two years

Patrick Chung in the 2nd (and our first overall this year) this year is firmly behind Sanders and McGowen

Whilhite in the 4th is ok considering. I guess he has the potential to get where Sanders is in a few years.

I'm just saying he either got lucky for a long time with pro bowlers like Samuels in the 4th and never was that good, which would explain why he's having a hard time lately, or he really is good and has made a bunch of mistakes lately

While I agree with the premise, I think you are both expecting way too much from 4th and 5th rounders, and also expecting way too quick of a turnaround on draft picks from this year.

Well wait a second. yes and no.  It's not too early to judge some of the young guys when they are going against other young guys. For example. Wheatley. 2nd rounder. I'm not judging him harshly as a bad pick when another young guy (Whilhite) taken later in the same draft beats him out.
I don't think I'm being harsh on Crable to say he's done nothing but get hurt. You can't tell me they don't wish they had that pick back.
I'm not asking Volmer to beat out a Pro Bowler like Light. I'm asking him to beat out Kaczur who isn't that great and is also young. Maybe by the end of the year he will, but I don't think it's asking too much of a 2nd rounder to beat out a young guy who is struggling
I'm not being unfair to Brace who doesn't see the field when our 6th rounder (Pryor) does.
I'm not being unfair to K O'Connel when he gets beat out by a younger undrafted kid (Hoyer)
I'm not going to complain about T MacKenzie who got hurt. Not yet. You can't predict injury
I'm fine waiting on Butler and Chung for now
I'm even fine on Ohlberg for a year until the free agency situation with Mankins and Neal clears up

But it's not asking too much for 1rst and 2nd rounders picked at positions of need to play and play reasonably well..like Butler. 

Did you actually read my post?  I said it was too early to expect much from the picks from THIS YEAR.  I don't deny for a second that Wheatley, O'Connell, and Crable have all been disappointments.  

But to expect rookies to be making a big impact in the first half of their rookie season is asking a lot.  Particularly on a team as talented as this Patriots team.  Several of them are already moving up the depth charts, and could be starters by the end of the season.

BTW, did you miss Vollmer's start last week?  I know it was against the Titans, but he looked great out there.

[yall hate]

TBC has officially been resigned.  Terms not yet released.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/20/patriots-re-sign-tully-banta-cain/

[yall hate]

and the reason for cutting TBC (And probably Eric Alexander)

The transactions have been coming fast and furious from Foxborough over the last two days, with the Patriots releasing outside linebacker/defensive end Tully Banta-Cain (whom it re-signed today according to a report by ESPN's Adam Schefter report) on Monday and wide receiver Joey Galloway, tight end Michael Matthews and linebacker Eric Alexander today.

There is a method to the Patriots' madness in the flood of activity.

Both Banta-Cain and Alexander, who is also reportedly going to be re-signed, were playing under one-year contracts that qualified as "minimum salary benefit" deals under the NFL's collective bargaining agreement.

Such deals can't be renegotiated or extended in any manner, according to the CBA. So, to lock up both players to longer term deals the Patriots had to release them.

Minimum salary benefit deals apply to players with four or more credited NFL seasons, who sign for the league minimum salary based on their years of service and then get no more than an additional $50,000 in compensation from the team.

That was the case for Banta-Cain, in his seventh year, and Alexander, a fifth-year player, both of whom prior to being released were on one-year contracts with $620,000 base salaries (the minimum for NFL players who entered 2009 with four to six years of experience under their belt) and then had roster and workout bonuses that totaled an additional $50,000.

The benefit belongs to the team. In both cases, Banta-Cain and Alexander had cap charges that were only equal to the minimum salary of a player with two credited seasons prior to 2009, which is $460,000.

By extending both players their cap charges will actually go up. The same goes for wide receiver Sam Aiken, who signed a two-year contract extension on Monday. Aiken's base salary for 2009 went up from $645,000 to $1.16 million.

The reason for releasing Banta-Cain and Alexander within the last 24 hours is that once the NFL's trading deadline, which is today at 4 p.m, passes, all released players are subject to waivers until Feb. 1.

Up until the deadline, players with four or more seasons of service are not subject to the waiver system.

So, the Patriots had to release Banta-Cain and Alexander if they wanted to sign them to new deals, but wanted to do so without exposing them to waivers, where another team could claim them.

It's actually a very shrewd move.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/

[celticsclay]

Actually Volmer had an outstanding game subbing in for the injured Light the last game +. Butler has looked very good as a cover DB. Chung had an interception last game and has shown to be a very strong presence in the dime package. Myron Pryor has been getting some time in on the interior of the DL and making some plays. And let's not forget what Edelman is doing, you know our third leading receiver and best kickoff and punt return man.

Then in 2007 we hit it huge. We gathered in Merriweather and got Randy Moss for a 4th rounder and Wes Welker for a lower pick. 2006 was a bit of a disaster but one really strike out year in a decade of home runs is fine by me. 2005, we had Mankins, Hobbs, Kazcur, Cassell and Sanders. 2004, Wilfork, Benjamin and Marquis Hill and traded for Corey Dillon. From 2003 on he had spectacular drafts.

I really think someone is being way, way, way to harsh on Belichick's draft history given where the Patriots are supposed to be drafting, the shear number of productive valuable players they have drafted, the extremely successful trades made to obtain superstars and the fact that they were forced to forfeit a first rounder for a BS reason.

amen to this. You are not blowing the draft if you are averaging 11 wins a season or whatever they are for the past 8 years.

[Cman]

TBC has officially been resigned.  Terms not yet released.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/10/20/patriots-re-sign-tully-banta-cain/

thx.  so much for the 'stupid BB' talk....

[Eja117]

Didn't Vollmer start in place of Light and do a good job?

If we are going to talk about 2nd rounders, do we include the fact that in '07 BB traded one (or two) for Wes Welker?

Edit: Nick, you beat me to it.

Sort of. If you want to say we drafted Wes W and Randy Moss with 2nd and 4th round picks then you have to also say we wasted picks on other guys like Burgess or Andrew Walter.

[nickagneta]

Didn't Vollmer start in place of Light and do a good job?

If we are going to talk about 2nd rounders, do we include the fact that in '07 BB traded one (or two) for Wes Welker?

Edit: Nick, you beat me to it.

Sort of. If you want to say we drafted Wes W and Randy Moss with 2nd and 4th round picks then you have to also say we wasted picks on other guys like Burgess or Andrew Walter.

That's fine. Say that but the gains in BB's draft day trades have far outweighed the losses. I mean it's not even close.

[Donoghus]

Didn't Vollmer start in place of Light and do a good job?

If we are going to talk about 2nd rounders, do we include the fact that in '07 BB traded one (or two) for Wes Welker?

Edit: Nick, you beat me to it.

Sort of. If you want to say we drafted Wes W and Randy Moss with 2nd and 4th round picks then you have to also say we wasted picks on other guys like Burgess or Andrew Walter.

Sure, the Pats have blown draft picks but so have the other 29 teams.  

Belichick has definitely done well with the 1st rounders.  He's had some higher pick busts but he's also hit on a few of them.

He's also managed to accumulate multiple picks and used them as assets to acquire guys like Welker and Moss.  That definitely reflects well on Belichick.  

When it comes to 5th, 6th, and 7th rounders I think luck plays just as much a factor as anything.  I really think its a crapshoot there although better scouting might lead to finding more of those "diamonds in the rough".

[Eja117]

I don't trust BB as much as I used to. He has really blown a lot of top picks lately, but I have to think that they must be really confident doing this.

You are thinking of 2006 and Maroney, I assume.  Because other than that, in recent years BB has been really good on draft day, IMHO:

First Round Picks:
'04: Vince Wilfork, Ben Watson
'05: Logan Mankins
'07: Brandon Merriweather
'08: Mayo
'09: No first rounder picked (and too early to tell, anyway)

No. Not exactly. I said "top picks"

Bb just used to do better is all. For example he picked Koppen in the 5th and he started from day one. This year he picked Volmer in the 2nd and he isn't starting. he traded up for Ohlberg in the 4th and he sits the bench. And Bussey (5th I think) is on the practice squad. And this despite the offensive line not exactly lighting it up.

He picked 2 TEs in the 1rst round two years in a row and neither did much. He also picked one in the 3rd and he doesn't do anything

Kevin O'Connell was picked in the 3rd and cut after a year.

Yes there's maroney and Merriwether took a while to help

Wheatley in the 2nd round last year is barely on the team

Ron Brace in the 2nd hasn't played almost at all this year

Crable (3rd i think) has done nothing in two years

Patrick Chung in the 2nd (and our first overall this year) this year is firmly behind Sanders and McGowen

Whilhite in the 4th is ok considering. I guess he has the potential to get where Sanders is in a few years.

I'm just saying he either got lucky for a long time with pro bowlers like Samuels in the 4th and never was that good, which would explain why he's having a hard time lately, or he really is good and has made a bunch of mistakes lately

While I agree with the premise, I think you are both expecting way too much from 4th and 5th rounders, and also expecting way too quick of a turnaround on draft picks from this year.

Well wait a second. yes and no.  It's not too early to judge some of the young guys when they are going against other young guys. For example. Wheatley. 2nd rounder. I'm not judging him harshly as a bad pick when another young guy (Whilhite) taken later in the same draft beats him out.
I don't think I'm being harsh on Crable to say he's done nothing but get hurt. You can't tell me they don't wish they had that pick back.
I'm not asking Volmer to beat out a Pro Bowler like Light. I'm asking him to beat out Kaczur who isn't that great and is also young. Maybe by the end of the year he will, but I don't think it's asking too much of a 2nd rounder to beat out a young guy who is struggling
I'm not being unfair to Brace who doesn't see the field when our 6th rounder (Pryor) does.
I'm not being unfair to K O'Connel when he gets beat out by a younger undrafted kid (Hoyer)
I'm not going to complain about T MacKenzie who got hurt. Not yet. You can't predict injury
I'm fine waiting on Butler and Chung for now
I'm even fine on Ohlberg for a year until the free agency situation with Mankins and Neal clears up

But it's not asking too much for 1rst and 2nd rounders picked at positions of need to play and play reasonably well..like Butler. 

Did you actually read my post?  I said it was too early to expect much from the picks from THIS YEAR.  I don't deny for a second that Wheatley, O'Connell, and Crable have all been disappointments.  

But to expect rookies to be making a big impact in the first half of their rookie season is asking a lot.  Particularly on a team as talented as this Patriots team.  Several of them are already moving up the depth charts, and could be starters by the end of the season.

BTW, did you miss Vollmer's start last week?  I know it was against the Titans, but he looked great out there.

Actually I think this year was generally a pretty good draft and it's not done yet, because we haven't seen Brandon Tate or Tyrone MaKenzie yet.

But I don't think I'm asking too much for maybe one instant starter out of the many picks made at positions of need.

If Volmer was supposed to be many years away then they shouldn't draft him in the 2nd round because we need help now. I'm not willing to wait years of watching Nick Kaczur and Matt Light (both were instant starters as rookies) get beat by quicker guys because Volmer is supposed to be good years away from now. That's a 7th rounder. Not a 2nd.  I hope he's ready much sooner

I also think it would be nice if Ron Brace were getting some playing time. Not zero. Especially considering that Richard Seymore isn't around any more. I don't think that's asking too much.

Other than that I think this draft is better than in a while. It's definitely better than last year. Last year we got Mayo. Ok he was ROY, but don't you expect big things from top 10 picks at positions of need? Then the whole rest of the draft was blown except for Wilhite and I guess Slater.

The only 2007 draft pick still with the team is the first rounder, who took about two years to help at a position of need. (Merriwhether)

The entire 2006 draft was blown except Gostkowski and I guess maaayyyybbbee Maroney (the 1rst rounder)

You have to go back to 2005 to get a pretty good draft. They got two instant starters (Mankins in the 1rst and Kaczur in the 3rd) a guy who started the next year I think (Ellis H in the 3rd) a guy who started the year after that (Sanders in the 4th), another guy who started due to injury the year after that (Cassel) and two guys out of the league in the 5th and 7th.  

That's what I expect from drafts, and not just the Pats but anyone

Also the entire 2004 draft was blown except for Wilfork who slid down to them

In 2001 they did horrid except their top two picks (Seymour picked 6th, and Light)

2002 was excellent and so was 2003.

[nickagneta]

Except for baseball, football is easily the second toughest sport to draft in and expecting to draft ROY's with a top 10 pick or starters every year in the end of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round of the draft is just unreasonable eja. I too want that to happen but except for the last two years or so, BB doesn't draft based on need and so he builds depth so that players have time to understand his complex schemes.

For every guy that comes and and starts right away there are even more guys that, like Merriweather, Wilfork, Samuel, Warren, Kazcur, that take a couple of years to develop and inseat very talented players in front of them. Then there are just as many busts. It's the way of the NFL and few franchises have ever had as much success over a ten year period as Bill Belichick has over the last decade. Especially in the salary cap era, where getting productive talent picking at the end of the first three rounds over a long period of the time while still retaining your stars, is almost impossible.

[Eja117]

Except for baseball, football is easily the second toughest sport to draft in and expecting to draft ROY's with a top 10 pick or starters every year in the end of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round of the draft is just unreasonable eja. I too want that to happen but except for the last two years or so, BB doesn't draft based on need and so he builds depth so that players have time to understand his complex schemes.

For every guy that comes and and starts right away there are even more guys that, like Merriweather, Wilfork, Samuel, Warren, Kazcur, that take a couple of years to develop and inseat very talented players in front of them. Then there are just as many busts. It's the way of the NFL and few franchises have ever had as much success over a ten year period as Bill Belichick has over the last decade. Especially in the salary cap era, where getting productive talent picking at the end of the first three rounds over a long period of the time while still retaining your stars, is almost impossible.

I don't think we're that far away on this.  Yes. When you have a top ten pick I expect a Pro Bowl out of the deal or I think of it as a bust. That's what a top ten pick is. They're supposed to be really good. So far. So good. Seymour. Mayo. Mission accomplished. Actually better than accomplished. Underachievement there.

But, yeah I generally expect two instant starters and one eventual starter and a decent backup or two every draft. At least when you have needs and a lot of picks.

But I definitely think if all you get is one player who eventually starts then that draft is a bust.

And I kind of think it's tougher to draft in the NBA unless you are drafting in the top 5, in which case it doesn't seem too hard.

I know next to nothing about hockey. It seems when there are so many players internationally I assume that must be pretty hard to draft in

[nickagneta]

Well then I think what you are really saying is that in 2006 and 2008 you don't like what BB did because just about every year other than those they have landed 2 or more starters through draft or trade on trade day.  2009 it's too early to tell. And even 2008 draft, IMO, is still in question as I think Mayo will be joined eventually by Wilhite as a starter and maybe Wheatley as well, or at least he will be a nickelback. 2006 was a disaster though because your best player was a kicker and when that happens, you've had a disastrous draft.