Author Topic: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green  (Read 15249 times)

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Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2009, 03:06:00 PM »

Offline Rida

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im torn on wether to chastize him for not bleeding green.

On the one hand he is a full time employee of ESPN and has to be a little objective especially in what he writes on page 2.

On the other hand I also feel like the Cavs are the fvorites right now, does that make me a bad Celtics fan?

Because i know [dang] well that i bleed green

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2009, 03:07:27 PM »

Offline Hoops

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Quote
There should be a section on eBay that allows the auctioning of enticing future bets. For instance, a few weeks before the NBA season, I placed $300 on 15-to-1 odds that Cleveland would win the 2009 NBA title. Those odds have dropped to 2-to-1. Not that I would (after all, Cleveland is going to win the 2009 NBA title), but shouldn't I have the option to sell that $300 ticket on eBay? What if someone bid $1,200 on it (which would be a smart move because, again, Cleveland is going to win the NBA title) and I was guaranteed a $900 return on my investment? Should I take the money? This would be a fun Web site, you have to admit. And if eBay can't do it, then why couldn't the casinos themselves build a Web site that allows people to sell future tickets and get a second cut on the action? It all makes too much sense.

I'm assuming this is another one of Bill's "reverse jinxes"?  I know this is fairly minor, and people get way too riled up about Simmons, but I think it's disingenuous for somebody to act like Boston's Superfan #1, and then consistently talk about other teams being superior to the Celts (L.A. last year, Cleveland this year.)
Picking the Lakers last year was more egregious than picking the Cavs this year (not because I hate the Lakers). Any true Celtics homer had a legitimate case for the C's to win the title last year. This year, the Cavs are on a tear and Boston is hurt - big time. So, I don't think it's unreasonable at all. (That said, I'm one of the few people who has actually stated on Celticsblog a belief that we could give Cleveland a run for their money without KG.)

I'll take my lickings for this next comment, but I feel like Celticsblog (as an entity) is still fighting its own inferiority complex. Personally, I get tired of commentaries and questioning of Bill Simmons' loyalty, as well as the canned rebuttals to various articles written in the Globe and/or Herald that seem to be an attempt to establish the relevancy of Celticsblog. I don't think it's necessary. Celticsblog is legit. I love it. I've followed it for however long now (4-5 years) and I'm still here. But I think Celticsblog needs to act more like the relevant player it is in the world of Celtics coverage and less like the kid brother. 

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2009, 03:11:47 PM »

Offline crownsy

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he's a fan... he tried the reverse jinx last year too.

But I'm kinda sharing his sentiment until I hear the truth about KG's injury.

im going to start telling people everything im wrong about is a reverse jinx from now on, we'll see how many suckers i can find.
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Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2009, 03:12:03 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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He's as much a fan as any of us, but he says things he ends up regretting.  Early in the season he was saying on his podcast that Boston was a lock to win over 70 games....

and now we are limping into the playoffs with the 4th best record in the league.  I promise you he wants the Celtics to win... he just doesn't want to make a prediction.

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2009, 03:14:00 PM »

Offline Cman

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Quote
There should be a section on eBay that allows the auctioning of enticing future bets. For instance, a few weeks before the NBA season, I placed $300 on 15-to-1 odds that Cleveland would win the 2009 NBA title. Those odds have dropped to 2-to-1. Not that I would (after all, Cleveland is going to win the 2009 NBA title), but shouldn't I have the option to sell that $300 ticket on eBay? What if someone bid $1,200 on it (which would be a smart move because, again, Cleveland is going to win the NBA title) and I was guaranteed a $900 return on my investment? Should I take the money? This would be a fun Web site, you have to admit. And if eBay can't do it, then why couldn't the casinos themselves build a Web site that allows people to sell future tickets and get a second cut on the action? It all makes too much sense.

I'm assuming this is another one of Bill's "reverse jinxes"?  I know this is fairly minor, and people get way too riled up about Simmons, but I think it's disingenuous for somebody to act like Boston's Superfan #1, and then consistently talk about other teams being superior to the Celts (L.A. last year, Cleveland this year.)

Roy, nice job catching this.  It was just about time for a Hate Bill Simmons thread (and getting close to a Love Gerald Green thread).  I'm ready to pile on Mr. BS... let the fun begin!
Celtics fan for life.

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2009, 03:15:07 PM »

Offline JSD

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Hey, it's part of Simmons shtick isn't it?
The only color that matters is GREEN

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2009, 03:27:43 PM »

Offline Jeff

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dear Bill, 2 points

a. When a pessimist takes this position, he's allowed to say "either I'm right or I'm pleasantly surprised."  You are just being smarmy.  Quit it please.

b. Regarding your bets idea, it is called the Stock Market (options trading, shorting stocks, etc.).  Same exact idea without the sports.
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Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2009, 03:33:38 PM »

Offline TomHamilton30

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Wow... I'm shocked to see this posted by Roy..

First, bleeding green doesn't mean you lie to yourself or others.  If you think another team has a better chance, and its in the context of a conversation (or article), then you say it (or write it).  "Bleeding Green" is routing for the Celtics through thick and thin.  Bill Simmons routes for the Celtics, whether you like him as a fan or not is irrelevant.

Second, he went out of his way last year to say the Lakers were going to win... only to follow it up with "of course I said they were going to win.  I'm so burnt from my jinxing the Pats, that I don't want to do the same to the Celtics.. *hint hint*".  He openly pulled for the Celtics, before they made it to the finals.  

Lastly, I don't let Bill Simmons speak for myself as a Boston fan.  It's his job to make predictions and analyze the NBA in a manner that is appealing to a national audience.  He's at least better than reading Bob Ryan or Dan Shaugnessy who are bleeding potato chips from having sat on the couch in lieu of writing articles.


Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2009, 03:33:51 PM »

Offline Kwhit10

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I have a hard time believing that Cleveland was EVER a 15-1 shot to win the title this year.  I mean, if every team in the league was a .500 club, they would all be 30-1.  Hard to see, especially after how tough they were LAST year, how they ever would have been much worse than a 5-1 or 6-1 shot.  

I mean, I kinda figured, at the start of the season...

Boston: 25% shot at winning (4-1)
Cleveland: ~20% (5-1)
Lakers: ~15% (about 6-1)
Spurs: ~15% (about 6-1)
Everyone else: 25%

I mean, tell me if I'm misinterpreting the gambling lines, but doesn't 15-1 odds imply that Cleveland's only supposed to have a 7% chance of winning the title?  When were the odds EVER that low?

Cleveland was 45-37 last year, the year they went to the finals they were 50-32.  They changed their roster, they didn't do all that well last year, and there changes were unknown, why would you expect the Cavs to be anything more than 15-1 (well I could see them as high as 12-1) beginning in the season.  Also Boston won the title and they are from Boston (fan favorite) so they're odds would be good same goes for the Lakers (they got Bynum and fan favorite).  So they're odds wouldn't show good value.  Cleveland is a small market team, who only won 45 games last year.

Also at the begining of the year Detroit was the same, and could easily be a contender, the Magic were still there.  So it wasn't a sure lock that Cleveland would be on this kind of win pace.

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2009, 03:36:54 PM »

Offline TomHamilton30

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b. Regarding your bets idea, it is called the Stock Market (options trading, shorting stocks, etc.).  Same exact idea without the sports.

Jeff,

I'm assuming he is, as most people are, aware of the financial sector's options.  My guess is he was trying to relate/explain that principle to sports betting in a simple manner.  His point that it does not exist in sports betting is still valid, and its the first I've ever seen it brought up. 

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2009, 03:47:46 PM »

Offline kenmaine

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Hold on guys- just the other day everyone here(well, at least the first fifteen or twenty that I read), felt the C's have zero chance to win it all without KG.
I'd like some action on that- if you're so sure of it, just give me 100-1 odds and I'll invest a hundred on the C's chances even without Garnett.
Nobody seems to be talking that much about Leon, but if Leon can come back full strength I give the C's a shot even without KG. Maybe a 20-1 chance, but it would be possible.
But it does seem like it's the Cav's year, especially now that they'll have home court(and a three man advantage?) in the playoffs.

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2009, 03:51:31 PM »

Offline Jeff

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b. Regarding your bets idea, it is called the Stock Market (options trading, shorting stocks, etc.).  Same exact idea without the sports.

Jeff,

I'm assuming he is, as most people are, aware of the financial sector's options.  My guess is he was trying to relate/explain that principle to sports betting in a simple manner.  His point that it does not exist in sports betting is still valid, and its the first I've ever seen it brought up. 

don't mind me, I'm just in a bad mood  :-X
Faith and Sports - an essay by Jeff Clark

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Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2009, 04:09:00 PM »

Offline Hoops

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Hold on guys- just the other day everyone here(well, at least the first fifteen or twenty that I read), felt the C's have zero chance to win it all without KG.
I'd like some action on that- if you're so sure of it, just give me 100-1 odds and I'll invest a hundred on the C's chances even without Garnett.
Nobody seems to be talking that much about Leon, but if Leon can come back full strength I give the C's a shot even without KG. Maybe a 20-1 chance, but it would be possible.
But it does seem like it's the Cav's year, especially now that they'll have home court(and a three man advantage?) in the playoffs.

I was the one who started that other thread and I too found it hard to believe that so many people are willing to write this team off without KG. Sure, the odds drop, but they're not zero.

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2009, 04:23:20 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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Look, the guy saw 15-1 odds and intelligently jumped on them. No reason to hammer on him for it. The Bird, you said you thought going into the season the odds to win should have been about 4-1 for the Celtics (25% chance), 5-1 for Cleveland (20%), et al. That's your rationale for why you don't believe the 15-1 odds ever existed. Well, Simmons is right. Check out this article from June 20, 2008:

http://www.hoopsavenue.com/2008/06/2009-nba-finals-odds/

Given those odds (Boston at 7-2, Cleveland at 16-1), if you thought Boston had a 25% chance to win the title and Cleveland had a 20% chance, your expected values for $50 bets on each team would have been $43.75 for the Celtics (25% chance to win $175) or $160 for the Cavs (20% chance to win $800). It's not even close which one a rational person would pick. The expected value is just far higher. It's a no brainer, even for a Celtics diehard. In fact, even if you thought the Celtics had a 50% chance to win it all and Cleveland the same 20%, the expected value would still point toward Cleveland ($160 to $87.50).

Remember, Vegas doesn't base odds on who it actually thinks will win (that will influence the lines, but not control them), it bases odds on who the public thinks will win and who they will bet on. Vegas plays for the long run, they want roughly equal action on all teams so they guarantee a profit (both by selling more than they pay out AND by picking up a lot of commissions).

At the end of last season and going into this one, most people thought Boston, LA, Detroit, San Antonio, probably New Orleans and maybe a few others would be better than Cleveland. Remember, Cleveland had fewer than 50 wins last year and a negative point differential. There wasn't much reason to believe they'd get significantly better (Mo Williams didn't seem like that big an upgrade), and most of their surrounding players were just getting older (Ilgauskas, Wallace, Szczerbiak) not better. They were not an appealing pick from an average person's perspective, at least not as appealing as New Orleans, Orlando and Utah - three young up and coming teams who had better records last year than Cleveland - San Antonio (healthier, bounce back year) and Houston (Artest addition and healthier) or Boston and LA. More money was going on those teams - odds are just shifted to get more money on other teams, like Cleveland.

Factor in that much Vegas action involves teams from California (particularly LA, since that's the bulk of who goes to Vegas), New York and Boston (East coast media hype), so those teams will have much lower odds than one might expect. But they still get more action because so many people from those towns go to Vegas and drop bets. That's a big reason teams from secondary markets, like Cleveland, get higher odds. It's not because they're worse or because Vegas thinks they're worse; it's just because fewer people bet on them so Vegas needs to bring more action that way.

Simmons jumped on what many of us noticed from the Celtics' playoff series against the Cavs last year - the Cavs were the biggest threat to our title run last season, and it stood to reason that with another year of Lebron developing, they'd only be better this season. The general public didn't jump on it, but wily NBA observers, such as Simmons and many of us here, would/should/could have. The Bird, you said yourself you saw them as the second contender for the title going into the season. Again, looking at the numbers above, it would have been rational for you to put money on Cleveland - far more rational than to put money on the Celtics (with your numbers, you'd expect to lose $6.25 betting on Boston but gain $110 betting on Cleveland).  

As to Simmons' belief that he should be permitted to sell his ticket, it could never happen and under our laws should never happen. Gambling is only legal in certain locations like Vegas, so the sale through ebay or another provider of these options would be illegal if it was sold from a location where gambling is illegal or to a location where gambling is illegal. There's no real distinction between that and taking bets online. (i.e., I will sell for $100 a contract that says you will receive $200 if the Cavs win the title - that's just taking a 2:1 bet). It's just illegal.

Plus, Vegas would step in to prevent it. Vegas has no incentive to let people sell their bets. They want people paying them for 2-1 odds on the Cavs, since they get a commission on that. Simmons could sell a $300 15-1 ticket from the Cavs for $2000, the person buying gets 9:4 odds (better than the 2:1 available in Vegas) and doesn't pay a commission (as I recall, about 5%, so $100 on that Cavs bet in Vegas). That doesn't help Vegas. They want the commissions, even if they pay out more in the long run. They also want that extra money coming to them if the Cavs DON'T win so they can pay out on all the bets still coming in for teams like the Celtics and Lakers. In fact, if people were permitted to sell those Cavs tickets, Vegas would have to lower Cleveland's odds to entice more people to put money on the Cavs. They don't want to do that.
Go Celtics.

Re: Bill Simmons proves, yet again, that he doesn't bleed green
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2009, 04:50:11 PM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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Look, the guy saw 15-1 odds and intelligently jumped on them. No reason to hammer on him for it. The Bird, you said you thought going into the season the odds to win should have been about 4-1 for the Celtics (25% chance), 5-1 for Cleveland (20%), et al. That's your rationale for why you don't believe the 15-1 odds ever existed. Well, Simmons is right. Check out this article from June 20, 2008:

http://www.hoopsavenue.com/2008/06/2009-nba-finals-odds/

Given those odds (Boston at 7-2, Cleveland at 16-1), if you thought Boston had a 25% chance to win the title and Cleveland had a 20% chance, your expected values for $50 bets on each team would have been $43.75 for the Celtics (25% chance to win $175) or $160 for the Cavs (20% chance to win $800). It's not even close which one a rational person would pick. The expected value is just far higher. It's a no brainer, even for a Celtics diehard. In fact, even if you thought the Celtics had a 50% chance to win it all and Cleveland the same 20%, the expected value would still point toward Cleveland ($160 to $87.50).

Remember, Vegas doesn't base odds on who it actually thinks will win (that will influence the lines, but not control them), it bases odds on who the public thinks will win and who they will bet on. Vegas plays for the long run, they want roughly equal action on all teams so they guarantee a profit (both by selling more than they pay out AND by picking up a lot of commissions).

At the end of last season and going into this one, most people thought Boston, LA, Detroit, San Antonio, probably New Orleans and maybe a few others would be better than Cleveland. Remember, Cleveland had fewer than 50 wins last year and a negative point differential. There wasn't much reason to believe they'd get significantly better (Mo Williams didn't seem like that big an upgrade), and most of their surrounding players were just getting older (Ilgauskas, Wallace, Szczerbiak) not better. They were not an appealing pick from an average person's perspective, at least not as appealing as New Orleans, Orlando and Utah - three young up and coming teams who had better records last year than Cleveland - San Antonio (healthier, bounce back year) and Houston (Artest addition and healthier) or Boston and LA. More money was going on those teams - odds are just shifted to get more money on other teams, like Cleveland.

Factor in that much Vegas action involves teams from California (particularly LA, since that's the bulk of who goes to Vegas), New York and Boston (East coast media hype), so those teams will have much lower odds than one might expect. But they still get more action because so many people from those towns go to Vegas and drop bets. That's a big reason teams from secondary markets, like Cleveland, get higher odds. It's not because they're worse or because Vegas thinks they're worse; it's just because fewer people bet on them so Vegas needs to bring more action that way.

Simmons jumped on what many of us noticed from the Celtics' playoff series against the Cavs last year - the Cavs were the biggest threat to our title run last season, and it stood to reason that with another year of Lebron developing, they'd only be better this season. The general public didn't jump on it, but wily NBA observers, such as Simmons and many of us here, would/should/could have. The Bird, you said yourself you saw them as the second contender for the title going into the season. Again, looking at the numbers above, it would have been rational for you to put money on Cleveland - far more rational than to put money on the Celtics (with your numbers, you'd expect to lose $6.25 betting on Boston but gain $110 betting on Cleveland).  

As to Simmons' belief that he should be permitted to sell his ticket, it could never happen and under our laws should never happen. Gambling is only legal in certain locations like Vegas, so the sale through ebay or another provider of these options would be illegal if it was sold from a location where gambling is illegal or to a location where gambling is illegal. There's no real distinction between that and taking bets online. (i.e., I will sell for $100 a contract that says you will receive $200 if the Cavs win the title - that's just taking a 2:1 bet). It's just illegal.

Plus, Vegas would step in to prevent it. Vegas has no incentive to let people sell their bets. They want people paying them for 2-1 odds on the Cavs, since they get a commission on that. Simmons could sell a $300 15-1 ticket from the Cavs for $2000, the person buying gets 9:4 odds (better than the 2:1 available in Vegas) and doesn't pay a commission (as I recall, about 5%, so $100 on that Cavs bet in Vegas). That doesn't help Vegas. They want the commissions, even if they pay out more in the long run. They also want that extra money coming to them if the Cavs DON'T win so they can pay out on all the bets still coming in for teams like the Celtics and Lakers. In fact, if people were permitted to sell those Cavs tickets, Vegas would have to lower Cleveland's odds to entice more people to put money on the Cavs. They don't want to do that.

Thanks Bill
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