Author Topic: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot  (Read 7967 times)

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Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2019, 04:13:30 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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The solution is just to get rid of the zone defenses and go back to man to man.  This would open up the paint for not just driving to the hoop but also post play.  Now it's too easy to clog the paint and to double team big guys.  Zones also lead to guys being wide open at the three point line as the defenders all sag into the paint.

This point is underappreciated. TP.

One reason big men used to score more often is... it was a lot easier to score when you couldn't have a help big waiting in the paint as a man was starting his move.

That said - I hope if they made such a change they could find some way not to go all the way back to 1990s ball. I see the problems with today's game, but man, I actually stopped watching the NBA in the 90s. The Knicks played the worst brand of basketball I have ever seen, and on the whole there was too much iso-ball and less-skilled players who made their careers by muscling better players into bad games.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2019, 05:49:07 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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"Things aren't the way they used to be," said every curmudgeon ever.

And they're basically always right. The part they're almost always wrong about is that the old way was better.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2019, 06:36:18 PM »

Offline bopna

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A simple solution would be to stop counting threes until the last 2 minutes of the first 3 quarters. Allow the threes to count only when it matters like the whole fourth qtr and each last 2 minutes of each qtr...teams would stop shooting too many threes when they know it won't count anyway atleast for the first 10 minutes of the game.

But tbh.. Its really not the leagues fault that people started to become better shooters...its all a matter of repitition now.. Look at Big Al and Brooke Lopez, they have adapted and the bigs are now shooting threes.

Another solution would be to perhaps make the hoop cylinder an inch or two smaller... But whatever the solution is, it's not like this trend will likely not go away..

It's funny though because the highest scoring games were still recorded in the 80s when the three point line was barely used but teams implemented a 15 seconds or less offense...faster pace of games asw well.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2019, 06:46:02 PM »

Offline ChillyWilly

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The solution is just to get rid of the zone defenses and go back to man to man.  This would open up the paint for not just driving to the hoop but also post play.  Now it's too easy to clog the paint and to double team big guys.  Zones also lead to guys being wide open at the three point line as the defenders all sag into the paint.

This point is underappreciated. TP.

One reason big men used to score more often is... it was a lot easier to score when you couldn't have a help big waiting in the paint as a man was starting his move.

That said - I hope if they made such a change they could find some way not to go all the way back to 1990s ball. I see the problems with today's game, but man, I actually stopped watching the NBA in the 90s. The Knicks played the worst brand of basketball I have ever seen, and on the whole there was too much iso-ball and less-skilled players who made their careers by muscling better players into bad games.

Zone is a gimmick defense in the NBA and is almost always just used to stop runs and in short spurts. The modern NBA can break a zone with just half avg shooters.

I find the NBA to be the most entertaining it's ever been maybe it's because I'm a young mid 40s and don't remember the great hay days of hoops  ???
ok fine

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2019, 06:58:36 PM »

Offline Sophomore

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The solution is just to get rid of the zone defenses and go back to man to man.  This would open up the paint for not just driving to the hoop but also post play.  Now it's too easy to clog the paint and to double team big guys.  Zones also lead to guys being wide open at the three point line as the defenders all sag into the paint.

This point is underappreciated. TP.

One reason big men used to score more often is... it was a lot easier to score when you couldn't have a help big waiting in the paint as a man was starting his move.

That said - I hope if they made such a change they could find some way not to go all the way back to 1990s ball. I see the problems with today's game, but man, I actually stopped watching the NBA in the 90s. The Knicks played the worst brand of basketball I have ever seen, and on the whole there was too much iso-ball and less-skilled players who made their careers by muscling better players into bad games.

Zone is a gimmick defense in the NBA and is almost always just used to stop runs and in short spurts. The modern NBA can break a zone with just half avg shooters.

I find the NBA to be the most entertaining it's ever been maybe it's because I'm a young mid 40s and don't remember the great hay days of hoops  ???

He mentions “zone”, which I take as shorthand for changes in the illegal defense rule that teams use all the time. In the old days, if a big started pounding the rock and backing his man down, the other players on the defense had two choices: stay on their man, leaving the defender to play one on one, or else come with a hard double. What they could *not* do is sag near the block in the other side of the lane, where it would be easy for them to help when the offensive player. Or wander into the lane for a couple seconds to deter a drive, then dart back. This happens all the time now - and makes it much easier to defend the post.

Good explainer here: http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20/celticshub-whiteboard-illegal-defense-shapes-nba/

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2019, 08:13:10 PM »

Offline furball

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The solution is just to get rid of the zone defenses and go back to man to man.  This would open up the paint for not just driving to the hoop but also post play.  Now it's too easy to clog the paint and to double team big guys.  Zones also lead to guys being wide open at the three point line as the defenders all sag into the paint.

This point is underappreciated. TP.

One reason big men used to score more often is... it was a lot easier to score when you couldn't have a help big waiting in the paint as a man was starting his move.

That said - I hope if they made such a change they could find some way not to go all the way back to 1990s ball. I see the problems with today's game, but man, I actually stopped watching the NBA in the 90s. The Knicks played the worst brand of basketball I have ever seen, and on the whole there was too much iso-ball and less-skilled players who made their careers by muscling better players into bad games.

Zone is a gimmick defense in the NBA and is almost always just used to stop runs and in short spurts. The modern NBA can break a zone with just half avg shooters.

I find the NBA to be the most entertaining it's ever been maybe it's because I'm a young mid 40s and don't remember the great hay days of hoops  ???

He mentions “zone”, which I take as shorthand for changes in the illegal defense rule that teams use all the time. In the old days, if a big started pounding the rock and backing his man down, the other players on the defense had two choices: stay on their man, leaving the defender to play one on one, or else come with a hard double. What they could *not* do is sag near the block in the other side of the lane, where it would be easy for them to help when the offensive player. Or wander into the lane for a couple seconds to deter a drive, then dart back. This happens all the time now - and makes it much easier to defend the post.

Good explainer here: http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20/celticshub-whiteboard-illegal-defense-shapes-nba/

This is exactly what I was talking about.  They don't play straight up zones (most of the time) but they all sag into the paint and "dig" into the paint anytime the ball goes into the paint..  They also spread out so that when a post guy gets double teamed it's not leaving a guy undefended or an open lane to the rim for a cutter.   

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2019, 08:48:18 PM »

Offline footey

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A simple solution would be to stop counting threes until the last 2 minutes of the first 3 quarters. Allow the threes to count only when it matters like the whole fourth qtr and each last 2 minutes of each qtr...teams would stop shooting too many threes when they know it won't count anyway atleast for the first 10 minutes of the game.

But tbh.. Its really not the leagues fault that people started to become better shooters...its all a matter of repitition now.. Look at Big Al and Brooke Lopez, they have adapted and the bigs are now shooting threes.

Another solution would be to perhaps make the hoop cylinder an inch or two smaller... But whatever the solution is, it's not like this trend will likely not go away..

It's funny though because the highest scoring games were still recorded in the 80s when the three point line was barely used but teams implemented a 15 seconds or less offense...faster pace of games asw well.

I made the same suggestion above regarding regulating when the 3 point shot should count, so TP for agreeing with me!

I think the major reason scoring averages have not gone up despite the 3 point shot is that team defenses have gotten a lot better/more sophisticated. 

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2019, 08:59:26 PM »

Offline RPGenerate

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Just bring back handchecking. Rather then trying to arbitrarily take and insert rules to hamper offensive players, just let a player actually be able to defend these players to the fullest. Severely punish floppers too, which is by far the most toxic thing in basketball (*cough* James Harden *cough*).
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Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2019, 11:16:17 PM »

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How about a simple rule against N consecutive three point shot attempts?   I.E., let N be 3.  In that case if you take 2 consecutive shots outside the arc (whether you make them or not) then your next shot counts for 2 points, whether it is taken outside or inside the arc.
Eh I don't think it'll solve the root of the problem. What we need to do is find some big men who have the attributes to dominate inside and train them to adapt to the demands of the modern game defensively.

That won't happen unless teams have motivation to score 2PT shots more efficiently.
That can happen when we get another batch of big men who strike the genetic lottery ala Shaq/Robinson/Hakeem/Wilt/Russell.
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Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2019, 11:21:20 PM »

Offline Somebody

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The solution is just to get rid of the zone defenses and go back to man to man.  This would open up the paint for not just driving to the hoop but also post play.  Now it's too easy to clog the paint and to double team big guys.  Zones also lead to guys being wide open at the three point line as the defenders all sag into the paint.

This point is underappreciated. TP.

One reason big men used to score more often is... it was a lot easier to score when you couldn't have a help big waiting in the paint as a man was starting his move.

That said - I hope if they made such a change they could find some way not to go all the way back to 1990s ball. I see the problems with today's game, but man, I actually stopped watching the NBA in the 90s. The Knicks played the worst brand of basketball I have ever seen, and on the whole there was too much iso-ball and less-skilled players who made their careers by muscling better players into bad games.

Zone is a gimmick defense in the NBA and is almost always just used to stop runs and in short spurts. The modern NBA can break a zone with just half avg shooters.

I find the NBA to be the most entertaining it's ever been maybe it's because I'm a young mid 40s and don't remember the great hay days of hoops  ???

He mentions “zone”, which I take as shorthand for changes in the illegal defense rule that teams use all the time. In the old days, if a big started pounding the rock and backing his man down, the other players on the defense had two choices: stay on their man, leaving the defender to play one on one, or else come with a hard double. What they could *not* do is sag near the block in the other side of the lane, where it would be easy for them to help when the offensive player. Or wander into the lane for a couple seconds to deter a drive, then dart back. This happens all the time now - and makes it much easier to defend the post.

Good explainer here: http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/20/celticshub-whiteboard-illegal-defense-shapes-nba/
It only really bothers post players who eat up a ton of time on the shot clock and can't power through for a hook shot or dunk (eg. Hakeem, although he'd still be great in this era). For guys like Shaq/Robinson they'd just power through the swiping before teams can really zone them and score a bunch of and ones. I'm absolutely not in favour of bringing back the illegal defense rule to see people pound the ball for 10 seconds and score like it's a one on one game in the playground.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2019, 08:22:41 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Quote
The part they're almost always wrong about is that the old way was better.

I don't know the Magic Bird era was a special one in the NBA.....If you did not live through it I feel sorry for you.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2019, 12:11:45 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/09/paul-westphal-is-a-hall-of-famer-boston-celtics-champion-and-no-fan-of-where-the-nba-is-right-now.html
 Westphal feels that all the teams are running the same offense, with high pick and role, surrounded by 3 point shooters.  There is no longer any inside game.

That goes to show that even experts have their blind spots.

His summary of today's offense is a parody. The stuff teams run is elaborate and diverse, incorporating things from all decades; you see teams running flex, Princeton, triangle, and the old Celtics horns plays. The current rules encourage movement with and without the ball; the contrast with a guy pounding the ball in the post couldn't be more stark.

The NBA has the best athletes on the planet, for my money. The current game allows them to use their skills - including some amazing distance shooting - and their running and jumping. For me that's a lot more exciting than the static basketball that we've left behind.

He also distinguishes with Heinsohn's emphasis on running from today's league.

Can't tell what he's talking about. Tempos have been creeping up since the rules changed a generation ago. The changes were intended to open up play after the constipated game of the bad old 1990's, and they've done that.

If you look at games from the 1960's or 1970's one thing that stands out is how poorly conditioned and unathletic the average player is, compared to today. It was a sound strategy for Red and Russ and Tommy to outrun their opponents, and while conditioning and aggressiveness are always and forever advantages, the disparities between players have decreased.

Today's NBA player covers a lot more ground in a game than he did in the first six decades of the league.

Do you agree with him?

No, not at all.

"Things aren't the way they used to be," said every curmudgeon ever.

And they're basically always right. The part they're almost always wrong about is that the old way was better.

Excellent point.


I don't know the Magic Bird era was a special one in the NBA.....

I agree.
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Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2019, 03:40:13 PM »

Offline Bobshot

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Westphal was a 3P shooter, so it's an interesting take. An excellent player Red didn't keep in Boston who blossomed later in Phoenix, I believe.

What's happening in the NBA may turn out to be a fad--just like the era of pitch counts in MLB has led to $30M pitchers throwing 5 innings and countless mediocre relievers finishing out games--one per inning, no less--and losing a lot of them.
When will the suits realize they are leading themselves off a cliff? The Red Sox just went to 21 pitchers on their staff.

I'm another who thinks the 3P shot is overdone. I think Stevens will have to develop an inside game to complement the perimeter if he wants to win a championship. 

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2019, 04:03:57 PM »

Offline Big333223

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The part they're almost always wrong about is that the old way was better.

I don't know the Magic Bird era was a special one in the NBA.....If you did not live through it I feel sorry for you.

Even then, there was an awful lot of packing the paint and not nearly as much movement and flow as the game has today. And then the 90's and 00's became a one-on-one game. I actually much prefer the flow of today's game. That said...

I think the NBA needs to widen the court and extend the 3PT line.

The NBA will never, ever do it, but widening the court is my best answer to balancing things out a little. Widening the court makes those corner 3's a little harder and so it makes it a little harder for players without much skill to specialize and become valuable without really being very good basketball players. It also takes that defender a little bit farther from the rim, opening up the lanes a little more, and thus making a drive that much more attractive.
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Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2019, 04:20:11 PM »

Offline gift

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The emphasis on the 3 pt shot has mostly been fine, in my opinion, though I would like to see more physical perimeter defense allowed and perhaps allow players to goal tend 3 pt shots. The big difference that I don't like that has especially taken place over the last season or two is the lack of physical defense. Sometimes this last season I didn't know what I was watching and outcomes seemed too randomized for my liking.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 04:32:34 PM by gift »