Author Topic: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot  (Read 8102 times)

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Offline footey

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https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/09/paul-westphal-is-a-hall-of-famer-boston-celtics-champion-and-no-fan-of-where-the-nba-is-right-now.html

This is an interesting interview in Masslive.com.  Westphal feels that all the teams are running the same offense, with high pick and role, surrounded by 3 point shooters.  There is no longer any inside game. Some of this stuff has been mentioned before, but his take is quite good, and worth a read.

He also distinguishes with Heinsohn's emphasis on running from today's league.

Do you agree with him?

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2019, 10:28:17 AM »

Offline CelticsPoetry

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From the eye test and for my personal taste, this style of game is not very satisfying to watch. Totally agree with him, it's too predictable. Although I haven't dove too deep into analytics, I'd wager that a team with a good inside game (80s Celtics) would dominate even the best 3 point shooting team (2010s Dubs). Three pointers are still too much live or die for my taste.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 10:31:54 AM »

Online DefenseWinsChamps

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From the eye test and for my personal taste, this style of game is not very satisfying to watch. Totally agree with him, it's too predictable. Although I haven't dove too deep into analytics, I'd wager that a team with a good inside game (80s Celtics) would dominate even the best 3 point shooting team (2010s Dubs). Three pointers are still too much live or die for my taste.

I still think great inside play can win games. The Spurs continue to experiment with this. We see this in FIBA basketball too. The problem is that so few big men know how to work the court inside. This is a problem that goes back to the early 2000s, when very few good big men were being drafted and developed. There is a revival of sorts coming, but it takes time.

I wouldn't be too quick to assume that big teams from eras past could beat the modern Dubs though. I think they'd be well-matched.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 10:32:41 AM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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The quality of today's basketball does not compare to what the beauty of the game in the 80s. Or even the 90s. I'd agree with him wholeheartedly. Guys like Bird would take a couple 3s a game on average, now it's not unusual to see 40 3 pt attempts in a game. There are no post games like the Celtics had with Parrish and McHale, few players have a mid range jump shot, no 2 man game like Stocton & Malone, no triangle offense, nothing. Like he said pick and role with everyone else on the 3 pt line waiting for their man to cheat to the ball.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 10:35:05 AM »

Online Roy H.

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I think the NBA needs to widen the court and extend the 3PT line.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2019, 10:37:38 AM »

Offline Somebody

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https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/09/paul-westphal-is-a-hall-of-famer-boston-celtics-champion-and-no-fan-of-where-the-nba-is-right-now.html

This is an interesting interview in Masslive.com.  Westphal feels that all the teams are running the same offense, with high pick and role, surrounded by 3 point shooters.  There is no longer any inside game. Some of this stuff has been mentioned before, but his take is quite good, and worth a read.

He also distinguishes with Heinsohn's emphasis on running from today's league.

Do you agree with him?
Part of the reason is because there are no big men who can dominate in the post. I'm not even talking about low post monsters like Shaq/Wilt, there are no big men who can even run an efficient offense through the high post ala Garnett/Duncan/Dirk. Teams that may want to buck the trend can't assemble the personnel to establish a more traditional system if they want to be good enough to contend, and that's because there are no longer any dominant big men who are able to run their offense in the post.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2019, 10:41:08 AM »

Offline Who

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Couldn't agree more. I watch less and less with each passing year. I started watching old games on youtube rather than watching games last season. Much more satisfying.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 10:50:36 AM »

Offline Silky

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I hate the lack of toughness.
I think that has a bigger effect than the increase in 3pt shooting.

What ever happened to muscling players.

Now you only have 2 or 3 guys who are allowed to do it, and they do it dirty.
Just like 2 or 3 guys are allowed to travel all game long.

add to that its easier to launch a 3pter, and if you can make them at 40% that means someone needs to make 2pters at 60% rate to even your production. That has been done far fewer times than someone making over 40% of their 3pt attempts.



Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 11:04:35 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Couldn't agree more. I watch less and less with each passing year. I started watching old games on youtube rather than watching games last season. Much more satisfying.
I found myself doing that last season lol. Do expect that this season will be better due to Jaylen/Tatum getting a real opportunity to shine though.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 11:36:20 AM »

Offline dannyboy35

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I think the NBA needs to widen the court and extend the 3PT line.

   I’d love this. I could care less about records and stats. People will never stop debating who is better through the eras, already. For some people that’s actually fun to do. I’d like the 3 point line pushed back about 3 to 3 and 1/2 feet. It would go back to the league having 3 point SPECIALISTS. With the difficulty being higher it would just naturally bring back the midrange and low post games. It’s truly amazing to me how some players can shoot well from 3 feet behind the line already. I think the nba ( across the board) has never had more skilled players. It would be exciting to have those other aspects of the game reinserted.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 11:51:12 AM »

Offline dannyboy35

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I hate the lack of toughness.
I think that has a bigger effect than the increase in 3pt shooting.

What ever happened to muscling players.

Now you only have 2 or 3 guys who are allowed to do it, and they do it dirty.
Just like 2 or 3 guys are allowed to travel all game long.

add to that its easier to launch a 3pter, and if you can make them at 40% that means someone needs to make 2pters at 60% rate to even your production. That has been done far fewer times than someone making over 40% of their 3pt attempts.

   I hear you. There is a lack of toughness. I attribute that specific aspect ( mostly) to the only increased range and skill of the 3 but and the way it is reffed. Not being able to hand check makes a totally different game but it’s actually one time I support. To me hand checking in a pickup game or league game was always a cheap tactic. Not dirty or anything but I looked at it as an admission that you need to use your hands because you can’t move your feet fast enough. It was part of the game but I think if people are being honest it’s almost impossible to referee. How in the world can you judge how much pressure is being put on a guy’s hip as he’s edging by his defender? There will always be complaining about refs but I feel like it’s much less than in the 90’s.
   The other thing is since “the malice in the palace” they’re so afraid these guys will sneeze on someone. Meanwhile players in baseball are praised for leaving the dugout defending their teammates after some coward threw a 90 plus mph fastball at a guy because he admired his previous home run. This totally disgusts me when a pitcher also doesn’t have to bat himself. It’s so dangerous. Hockey players repeatedly throw punches to the face and they let them do it.  But they neuter nba players and don’t even let them talk trash. Every single player worth anything on the court grew up having to deal with trash talk. It’s weird that the best players on the planet now can’t do it or play against it. It’s outlawed in the nba but nba tv still shows highlights of the stuff and has former players talking about it all over the channel with find memories and fun stories.

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 12:04:15 PM »

Offline footey

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One rule change Westphal wants is letting players hand check more on the perimeter. This way they can fight through screens more and not be required to switch so much.  Would enable more bigs to play, especially late in games.

I doubt widening the court will be implemented, as it would cost arenas to lose valuable seat income.  Plus it would just be a matter of time before players adjust to the further shot.  Look at how far out guys like Curry and Lillard (and our kid Edwards) will shoot.  To me that's just an expensive way to kick the can. 

I'd rather see a time limit on the 3 point line, so that only during certain parts of the game (maybe the last two minutes of each quarter) would shots behind the line count as 3; at all other times they only count as 2. 

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 12:11:50 PM »

Offline furball

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I have been saying this for years now.  There is only one way to win in the NBA now.  In the 80's you could be successful with different styles.  Much more interesting.  If the Celtics aren't involved in a game I have is no interest in watching it because it doesn't matter which two teams are playing, it's the same game. 

Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2019, 12:38:34 PM »

Offline Silky

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I hate the lack of toughness.
I think that has a bigger effect than the increase in 3pt shooting.

What ever happened to muscling players.

Now you only have 2 or 3 guys who are allowed to do it, and they do it dirty.
Just like 2 or 3 guys are allowed to travel all game long.

add to that its easier to launch a 3pter, and if you can make them at 40% that means someone needs to make 2pters at 60% rate to even your production. That has been done far fewer times than someone making over 40% of their 3pt attempts.

   I hear you. There is a lack of toughness. I attribute that specific aspect ( mostly) to the only increased range and skill of the 3 but and the way it is reffed. Not being able to hand check makes a totally different game but it’s actually one time I support. To me hand checking in a pickup game or league game was always a cheap tactic. Not dirty or anything but I looked at it as an admission that you need to use your hands because you can’t move your feet fast enough. It was part of the game but I think if people are being honest it’s almost impossible to referee. How in the world can you judge how much pressure is being put on a guy’s hip as he’s edging by his defender? There will always be complaining about refs but I feel like it’s much less than in the 90’s.
   The other thing is since “the malice in the palace” they’re so afraid these guys will sneeze on someone. Meanwhile players in baseball are praised for leaving the dugout defending their teammates after some coward threw a 90 plus mph fastball at a guy because he admired his previous home run. This totally disgusts me when a pitcher also doesn’t have to bat himself. It’s so dangerous. Hockey players repeatedly throw punches to the face and they let them do it.  But they neuter nba players and don’t even let them talk trash. Every single player worth anything on the court grew up having to deal with trash talk. It’s weird that the best players on the planet now can’t do it or play against it. It’s outlawed in the nba but nba tv still shows highlights of the stuff and has former players talking about it all over the channel with find memories and fun stories.

I am with you on that one.

Hand checking I am happy to see go. It does open the floor for more high flying.

But what kills me in this game:

Defense. These guys are athletes, it pitiful to see them only compete on one side of the court. That bothers me more than anything. no pride.

Toughness: Then no one can be strong, that a penalty now. Shaq in today's rules wouldn't be allowed to do anything he used to. Stockton would be ejected every game. etc

Traveling: All of a sudden, league darlings (Lebron, Giannis, Harden, Westbrook) are allowed to run with the ball






Re: Paul Westphal: NBA playing styles are too generic thanks to 3 point shot
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 12:42:37 PM »

Offline W8ting2McHale

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I have been saying this for years now.  There is only one way to win in the NBA now.  In the 80's you could be successful with different styles.  Much more interesting.  If the Celtics aren't involved in a game I have is no interest in watching it because it doesn't matter which two teams are playing, it's the same game.

Exactly how I feel. I stopped watching the college game over a dozen years ago because of this style of play, but I knew it would filter up to the NBA eventually. The past few years have been hard to watch, and now I only watch Celtics games. I don’t bother with the rest.