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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Tr1boy on June 12, 2018, 08:10:40 PM

Title: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on June 12, 2018, 08:10:40 PM
Well its more like one and half season but you get my point. 

Really what matters from that trade was the 2018 8th pick (no disrespect to IT4 or Crowder).

Stays or walks, I would make that trade any day of the week, for a chance to win a championship.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Csfan1984 on June 12, 2018, 08:13:29 PM
Picked yes because C's are a playoff team. If they were building I'd say No.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on June 12, 2018, 08:14:17 PM
Picked yes because C's are a playoff team. If they were building I'd say No.

+1
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tstorey_97 on June 12, 2018, 08:53:19 PM
Have to say yes. Everything that happened last season helped Brown and Tatum.

With Irving and Hayward healthy this season?

Celtics should be as good as any to make it to the finals.

Without the trade? I just don't know about any of that...including Ainge has to pay the guys he traded away.

None of this was going on before the trade...

Irving's arrival + Hayward = contender

Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tenn_smoothie on June 12, 2018, 09:08:24 PM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Vermont Green on June 12, 2018, 09:17:51 PM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Monkhouse on June 12, 2018, 09:20:13 PM
This is a joke right..?

Kyrie is worth a top 3 pick.. lets be real..
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: gouki88 on June 12, 2018, 09:24:11 PM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Beat LA on June 12, 2018, 09:25:22 PM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.

Oh, crap - Kobe's coming out of retirement? ;) And we're going to trade a top 10 pick for him, to boot? ;)

Lol, just kidding ;D.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on June 12, 2018, 10:01:49 PM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

Exactly
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 12, 2018, 10:08:37 PM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tenn_smoothie on June 12, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision

Thomas is trash now ??  I thought he finished up this season with the Lakers playing well. I'm not saying he will return to the peak he reached two years ago, but he would be a great 6th man on our next title team without the Kyrie headaches to deal with.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: gouki88 on June 12, 2018, 10:23:59 PM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision

Thomas is trash now ??  I thought he finished up this season with the Lakers playing well. I'm not saying he will return to the peak he reached two years ago, but he would be a great 6th man on our next title team without the Kyrie headaches to deal with.
15.2 points, 4.8 assists, 37% FGs, 29% 3-pointers while being possibly the biggest defensive liability in the NBA is trash by my standards. Putting up ok, yet empty numbers (at terrible efficiency) on a garbage team isn’t what I’d ever call playing well
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: rondofan1255 on June 12, 2018, 10:34:21 PM
only if he signs an extension
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: chiken Green on June 12, 2018, 10:48:05 PM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision

Thomas is trash now ??  I thought he finished up this season with the Lakers playing well. I'm not saying he will return to the peak he reached two years ago, but he would be a great 6th man on our next title team without the Kyrie headaches to deal with.
IT didn't finish the season.. The Hip gave out.  He is back on the "Slow Grind"
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: droopdog7 on June 12, 2018, 11:33:56 PM
only if he signs an extension
Look at the history of the 8th pick.  It’s awful.  I’ll take a chance to compete for the title next year over that pick all day.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: JSD on June 12, 2018, 11:45:50 PM
$35 Million reasons why he's not going anywhere in free agency. Nevermind the fact that the Celtics offer the best chance at winning outside of GS.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Rakulp on June 13, 2018, 12:01:38 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

That definitely is a pu pu platter...give me Kyrie any day!
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on June 13, 2018, 12:47:53 AM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision

It's pretty crummy for a Celtics fan to speak of IT that way.  Though, ironically, that attitude is consistent with that of the guy you're blindly protecting.

tenn_smoothie, I agree with your assessment of Kyrie, and it's nice to see more begin to question his actions and comments.  Celtics fans have been very late to join the table to that discussion, unfortunately, and I'm not sure why.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Chris22 on June 13, 2018, 01:04:16 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Because we can win a championship this year, and if Kyrie walks we have cap space to sign someone else.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: gouki88 on June 13, 2018, 02:26:39 AM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision

It's pretty crummy for a Celtics fan to speak of IT that way.  Though, ironically, that attitude is consistent with that of the guy you're blindly protecting.

tenn_smoothie, I agree with your assessment of Kyrie, and it's nice to see more begin to question his actions and comments.  Celtics fans have been very late to join the table to that discussion, unfortunately, and I'm not sure why.
Crummy =/= untrue. To say he was average in ‘17-‘18 would be flattery.

Continue believing Kyrie is some manipulative jerk. I hope he’s here for a decade. Not only because he’s a top 3-5 PG in the NBA at age 25, but also because it’s quite funny seeing you act as if you have insights into his personality and thought-process nobody else on here is privy to
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tenn_smoothie on June 13, 2018, 02:29:00 AM
No

We keep IT and 8th pick plus we still have Hayward. Thomas eventually gets healthy and is solid for the playoffs. Now we still have a great team without cutting IT's throat and team chemistry is even better.  Going forward, we have a much more settled roster and a better chance to trade up for Mamba.

What we don't have is a flake for a starting point guard, who is self-centered and doesn't care who knows it.  I say with a healthy Thomas + Hayward + Talented Post Defender we are better and are a contender for titles for the next decade. With Irving, we now have a bunch of uncertainty. I say Thomas would re-sign for a reasonable contract in the end because he absolutely loves being a Celtic.
Lol. IT is trash now, and will most likely never even be an All-Star level player again. Why would you want him? Worse at both ends than Kyrie, older and on the decline.

You’re letting your anti-Kyrie grudge get in the way of an incredibly easy decision

It's pretty crummy for a Celtics fan to speak of IT that way.  Though, ironically, that attitude is consistent with that of the guy you're blindly protecting.

tenn_smoothie, I agree with your assessment of Kyrie, and it's nice to see more begin to question his actions and comments.  Celtics fans have been very late to join the table to that discussion, unfortunately, and I'm not sure why.

tarheels, we do think alike. Most times I have criticized Irving's attitude, I get hammered from all sides. Other than you and an odd post here and there, I haven't seen much agreement from the board - just a bunch of Kyrie Irving apologists who walk on eggshells around the guy's name - catering to his fragile ego also seems to include our Head Coach and GM.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 13, 2018, 05:54:08 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Because we can win a championship this year, and if Kyrie walks we have cap space to sign someone else.

Nope, no cap space.

Under the scenario laid out, we get a one year rental of Kyrie for a lottery pick, then he walks. That’s silly.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Celtics4ever on June 13, 2018, 06:47:28 AM
He is better than anyone we would get at 8!
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: loco_91 on June 13, 2018, 07:50:16 AM
Very strong draft class this year, but still. You have to figure that we'll re-sign Kyrie even if he doesn't take an extension (why would he?), and even 2 seasons of Kyrie could easily be worth more wins added than an 8th pick's entire career.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: rollie mass on June 13, 2018, 07:52:20 AM
When in Cleveland and under the control of Lebron it would be easy to have him state he would love to play with a skilled big like Pozingis in NYC.That can't be held against him or the draw of Madison Sq Garden and NY as home territory.
Danny has to know what Kyrie is up to and it was and is evident how much he wants to play with Hayward.This was Brad and Danny's team and still is.but if Kyrie is plotting. Then his betrayal would be Mafia like.This whole situation just drives a wedge between fans fueled by media for upcoming season.
.I love watching Kyrie play basketball but if he is not 100% in, after Lebron goes where he does and continues to play it one day at a time while sitting on the fence at the expense of the Celtics.This situation is for Danny to sort out.

Just watched an episode number two of Porzingis rehab and he is going to come back strong not just bulky but strong. Trainers three times a day in the gym,dieticans and chefs pumping in 4500 calories a day..
Impressive attitude,no damage to tissues or cartilage the Surgeon said it was of all the  possible outcomes the best to be 100% again and Porzingis was setting a record for recovery.


Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 13, 2018, 08:07:02 AM
He is better than anyone we would get at 8!

He is. But if you knew for a fact Kyrie was leaving after this season, would you prefer him or around seven years of the #8 pick?

That’s different than “one more year of Kyrie, and we’ll see what happens with him in free agency”.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Vermont Green on June 13, 2018, 08:25:21 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Two playoff runs with an elite player for a pick that in general results in a middle to low end starter?  So as an alternative hypothetical, let's say we offered Kyrie with only one year left back to Cleveland in exchange for the #8 pick.  Cleveland does that in a second.  If we added that he would pick up his option and be under control for 2 seasons, Cleveland would probably wet their pants.

It is too bad how all this worked out for Isaiah Thomas but I have no second thoughts on bringing in Kyrie or for losing out on the #8 pick (most expected this to be an even better pick, except maybe Ainge).  It was a cold-hearted decision to trade IT but in retrospect it was the right decision.

Kyrie may move on but who knows.  Kyrie's knee may explode  The #8 pick may end up being the sleeper of the draft and a future all star.  There may be all sorts of reasons to second guess this at some point in the future but right now this still looks like a steal for Boston.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: rollie mass on June 13, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
IF Kyrie were to leave then the Celts dodge the max and its not like we haven't seen free agents and stars being traded.Boston is now a on the map destination.
Isaiah and" back the brinks truck up" with his liability on defense and injury was going to be a real mess Crowder did not mesh with Hayward another mess.
Mike Gorman was right if Kyrie gets traded it going to be for a haul in return.And if Danny misjudges and we challenge for title and he still leaves.Then its Kyrie going home, to where he chooses to play.
This will linger till it doesn't at that point Kyrie will give a concise answer -if he gets the chance.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 13, 2018, 08:57:21 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Two playoff runs with an elite player for a pick that in general results in a middle to low end starter?  So as an alternative hypothetical, let's say we offered Kyrie with only one year left back to Cleveland in exchange for the #8 pick.  Cleveland does that in a second.  If we added that he would pick up his option and be under control for 2 seasons, Cleveland would probably wet their pants.

It is too bad how all this worked out for Isaiah Thomas but I have no second thoughts on bringing in Kyrie or for losing out on the #8 pick (most expected this to be an even better pick, except maybe Ainge).  It was a cold-hearted decision to trade IT but in retrospect it was the right decision.

Kyrie may move on but who knows.  Kyrie's knee may explode  The #8 pick may end up being the sleeper of the draft and a future all star.  There may be all sorts of reasons to second guess this at some point in the future but right now this still looks like a steal for Boston.

One playoff run. The hypothetical isn’t two additional seasons, it’s last year and this coming season.

I’m not judging the trade. It has worked out, and I feel that Kyrie will resign. If somebody told me, though, that we’d definitely lose Kyrie after two seasons (and at best one playoff run), I’d turn it down.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Moranis on June 13, 2018, 09:38:28 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Two playoff runs with an elite player for a pick that in general results in a middle to low end starter?  So as an alternative hypothetical, let's say we offered Kyrie with only one year left back to Cleveland in exchange for the #8 pick.  Cleveland does that in a second.  If we added that he would pick up his option and be under control for 2 seasons, Cleveland would probably wet their pants.

It is too bad how all this worked out for Isaiah Thomas but I have no second thoughts on bringing in Kyrie or for losing out on the #8 pick (most expected this to be an even better pick, except maybe Ainge).  It was a cold-hearted decision to trade IT but in retrospect it was the right decision.

Kyrie may move on but who knows.  Kyrie's knee may explode  The #8 pick may end up being the sleeper of the draft and a future all star.  There may be all sorts of reasons to second guess this at some point in the future but right now this still looks like a steal for Boston.

One playoff run. The hypothetical isn’t two additional seasons, it’s last year and this coming season.

I’m not judging the trade. It has worked out, and I feel that Kyrie will resign. If somebody told me, though, that we’d definitely lose Kyrie after two seasons (and at best one playoff run), I’d turn it down.
Yeah that is where I'm at.  If it was 100% guaranteed that Irving was leaving after next season (and the team didn't know it so they didn't trade him again) then I wouldn't trade the 8th pick for him, especially when you consider Irving missed the entire playoffs and is still on the mend (and may not be the same). 

I was fine with the trade given it is far from given Irving won't be here or that Boston won't trade him.  Even if he leaves, it could potentially be a sign and trade where some late 1st's or something come back. 
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: mutineer33 on June 13, 2018, 01:08:29 PM
I vote only if he signed an attention.  Even if top 10 picks only work out at a 40% or so clip ... the low cost contracts are critical.  Cannot really fault Kyrie for his position though.  That is far too much money to leave on the table if he is willing to gamble on himself for one more year, rather than the security of resigning earlier.

The real villain here is the CBA, which seems to encourage more player volitility in moving teams by discouraging resigning early. I don't think that was an intended consequence, and it needs to be fixed urgently.

I think we (Danny) would need to think carefully about throwing that much money on a 5 year deal to someone who misses as much time as he does, so this is a two way street, whereas a straight up extension would be more palatable as it would be such a lower cap hit.

I am a fan of Kyrie but I don't see him as a top 10 player in the league.  Maybe top 20 to 25.  If you are spending THAT much on a guy ... he better be "franchise".

All in all for everyone gloating about how badly we won the trade, if we fail to make the finals next year AND Kyrie leaves next year with us getting no compensation , this trade could look like a disaster for us. Michael Porter at number 8 would be a fantastic look for us, and the way IT was shipped out certainly hurt our image and cancelled out any notion of expecting player loyalty as we try to resign our own young stars. I say this as someone who enthusiastically supported the trade for Kyrie.

At some point the Celtics need a culture change within the organization .... from mercenary and cold hearted and only $$$ matters to getting back to Celtics Tradition and pride, where guys maybe give a hometown discount to remain a Celtics.   In the "Trader Danny" Era this is impossible. They have the coach for it. Can the GM reign in his ego for being in the headlines with every trade rumor, and instead take a more behind the scenes approach more focused on continuity rather than block buster deals.

As to Kyrie, I have posted elsewhere his heart is with the Knicks and he will be there once his contract expires if not sooner.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: YoungOne87 on June 14, 2018, 04:01:24 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

[dang] this list is terrible.  :o ;D
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Beat LA on June 14, 2018, 05:31:14 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

I'm probably looking at this incorrectly, but I'd rather have the 8th pick, by itself, in 2010, for example, than Kyrie :-\.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 14, 2018, 06:15:01 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

I'm probably looking at this incorrectly, but I'd rather have the 8th pick, by itself, in 2010, for example, than Kyrie :-\.

Since Gordon Hayward and Paul George were the next two guys picked, you wouldn’t be wrong.

One playoff run with Kyrie, or a cost-controlled Paul George on a rookie deal for 4-5 years? That’s a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Big333223 on June 14, 2018, 09:04:24 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

[dang] this list is terrible.  :o ;D

Yeah. Rudy Gay is by far the best guy on this list. Who's second? Jamal Crawford. I'd definitely rather have Kyrie for 2 years than Jamal Crawford for 7.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Moranis on June 14, 2018, 09:14:16 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

[dang] this list is terrible.  :o ;D

Yeah. Rudy Gay is by far the best guy on this list. Who's second? Jamal Crawford. I'd definitely rather have Kyrie for 2 years than Jamal Crawford for 7.
Sure but in the last 10ish years, Joakim Noah, DeMar DeRozan, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker, Andre Drummond have all been the 9th pick.  Going back further you get Amar'e Stoudemire and Andre Iguodala.  The last 3, #9 picks in the 90's were Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Shawn Marion.  Recent #10 picks include CJ McCollum, Paul George, Brook Lopez as well as some solid players like Andrew Bynum, Austin Rivers, Brandon Jennings, and the still developing Thon Maker and Justice Winslow.  From 1998 to 2002, the 10th picks were Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Keyon Dooling, Joe Johnson, and Caron Butler.  Some recent 11th picks include Myles Turner, Klay Thompson, and JJ Redick.  Heck even Domantas Sabonis looks like a solid player.

Just because teams flub the 8th pick doesn't mean there isn't generally a lot of talent available. 
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Redz on June 14, 2018, 09:23:59 AM
I know IT's stock has dropped, but we can't completely dismiss the fact that he was a second team all nba team member when he was traded. 

So yes, I'd trade the 8th pick for a two year rental on Irving, but it was so much more than that when it was consummated.  Who knew the Nets pick would fall to 8th too?

It's pretty crazy that after all was said and done between the Cavs and Celts the only guy to set foot on the court for any game time action during the ECF rematch was Zizic (and that was just garbage time).
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Fafnir on June 14, 2018, 09:27:28 AM
No I wouldn't and I don't think Ainge would either.

That's why the C's didn't make the deal till they talked to Kyrie's camp and confirmed he was willing to look at Boston as a long term home. (which he followed through on by waiving his trade kicker)

Now that conversation that happens two years prior to his actual FA is not a guarantee that he stays, but the its consistently been reported the C's are willing to gamble that Stevens/Org can convince players to stay. So I get taking that chance with the 8th pick, Crowder, IT, and Zizic.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Big333223 on June 14, 2018, 11:00:13 AM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

[dang] this list is terrible.  :o ;D

Yeah. Rudy Gay is by far the best guy on this list. Who's second? Jamal Crawford. I'd definitely rather have Kyrie for 2 years than Jamal Crawford for 7.
Sure but in the last 10ish years, Joakim Noah, DeMar DeRozan, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker, Andre Drummond have all been the 9th pick.  Going back further you get Amar'e Stoudemire and Andre Iguodala.  The last 3, #9 picks in the 90's were Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Shawn Marion.  Recent #10 picks include CJ McCollum, Paul George, Brook Lopez as well as some solid players like Andrew Bynum, Austin Rivers, Brandon Jennings, and the still developing Thon Maker and Justice Winslow.  From 1998 to 2002, the 10th picks were Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Keyon Dooling, Joe Johnson, and Caron Butler.  Some recent 11th picks include Myles Turner, Klay Thompson, and JJ Redick.  Heck even Domantas Sabonis looks like a solid player.

Just because teams flub the 8th pick doesn't mean there isn't generally a lot of talent available.

Obviously this is not an exact science. I think the point is just to show that a pick in that range is a crap shoot. Which it is.

If you're expanding to the 11th pick (going back to '00), you're talking about a pool of 68 players. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd say there are 9 players that are of the caliber of Kyrie. Other might think more or less but, for me, that means there's about a 13% chance of having a comparable player on the board. But then I'd have to know for sure who the best pick would be or if that player exists at all in the given draft I'm selecting from.

A good player can be gotten at #8 but it's unlikely. I'd rather have the certainty (health provided, but that's true of the draft pick as well) of a first overall caliber talent for 2 years.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: jambr380 on June 14, 2018, 11:10:17 AM
Obviously this is not an exact science. I think the point is just to show that a pick in that range is a crap shoot. Which it is.

If you're expanding to the 11th pick (going back to '00), you're talking about a pool of 68 players. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd say there are 9 players that are of the caliber of Kyrie. Other might think more or less but, for me, that means there's about a 13% chance of having a comparable player on the board. But then I'd have to know for sure who the best pick would be or if that player exists at all in the given draft I'm selecting from.

A good player can be gotten at #8 but it's unlikely. I'd rather have the certainty (health provided, but that's true of the draft pick as well) of a first overall caliber talent for 2 years.

Why do people keep saying 2 years? I understand that Kyrie's presence helped us gain the playoff position we did this year, but the result was still basically the same. Maybe we make it to the 2nd round instead - I don't know - who cares? Once Kyrie went down, it was over.

So essentially we end up with one Kyrie playoff run...hopefully. He still needs to be healthy when we go for it against possibly the best team of all-time. If Kyrie leaves after that and we don't win, then of course I would take the #8 and Crowder. At least they are cost controlled assets.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: PhoSita on June 14, 2018, 11:26:20 AM
Yes, considering the Celts could have made the Finals with him this season and may make the Finals with him next season.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Big333223 on June 14, 2018, 11:32:48 AM
Obviously this is not an exact science. I think the point is just to show that a pick in that range is a crap shoot. Which it is.

If you're expanding to the 11th pick (going back to '00), you're talking about a pool of 68 players. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd say there are 9 players that are of the caliber of Kyrie. Other might think more or less but, for me, that means there's about a 13% chance of having a comparable player on the board. But then I'd have to know for sure who the best pick would be or if that player exists at all in the given draft I'm selecting from.

A good player can be gotten at #8 but it's unlikely. I'd rather have the certainty (health provided, but that's true of the draft pick as well) of a first overall caliber talent for 2 years.

Why do people keep saying 2 years? I understand that Kyrie's presence helped us gain the playoff position we did this year, but the result was still basically the same. Maybe we make it to the 2nd round instead - I don't know - who cares? Once Kyrie went down, it was over.

So essentially we end up with one Kyrie playoff run...hopefully. He still needs to be healthy when we go for it against possibly the best team of all-time. If Kyrie leaves after that and we don't win, then of course I would take the #8 and Crowder. At least they are cost controlled assets.

Because even though he missed the playoffs he still played 60 regular season games and getting him for that time matters.

It matters just in being able to watch good basketball for a season but it also matters because without Kyrie, I don't think you can say the team would perform as well in the postseason the same way if they never had Kyrie at all. And the regular season record without Kyrie, they almost definitely don't have homecourt and probably lose in the first round instead of the ECF which is a big difference to me.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: PhoSita on June 14, 2018, 11:34:57 AM


Since Gordon Hayward and Paul George were the next two guys picked, you wouldn’t be wrong.

One playoff run with Kyrie, or a cost-controlled Paul George on a rookie deal for 4-5 years? That’s a no-brainer.

But that assumes, of course, that you're guaranteed to hit on a player like that with the 8th pick, which is far from a safe assumption.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 14, 2018, 11:41:35 AM


Since Gordon Hayward and Paul George were the next two guys picked, you wouldn’t be wrong.

One playoff run with Kyrie, or a cost-controlled Paul George on a rookie deal for 4-5 years? That’s a no-brainer.

But that assumes, of course, that you're guaranteed to hit on a player like that with the 8th pick, which is far from a safe assumption.

The no-brainer aspect of it is.  Rather, it's more like "Do I trust Danny to find a good player at #8".  If the answer is yes, then you have to trust that that player is worth more than one playoff run.

It's purely hypothetical, of course, because we've all got to hope that Kyrie isn't an idiot who is constantly looking for greener pastures.  I'm willing to trust that he values money and winning over living in NYC.  Of course, Marbury had a "greener pastures" mindset, got his ultimate Knicks wish, and shortly thereafter was eating Vaseline before becoming a Chinese basketball god.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: PhoSita on June 14, 2018, 12:13:55 PM
If we're playing this game we can't assume that we know we are only getting one playoff run with Kyrie. You have to assume the parties in the trade believe he may be available for two playoff runs.

With that calculus in mind, considering the rest of the talent the Celts had/have on the roster, you're basically asking if two potential Finals runs is worth a top 10 draft pick.  I say yes, especially given how much young talent the Celts already have and how many draft picks the Celts have in the pipeline even after the trade.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 14, 2018, 12:47:00 PM
If we're playing this game we can't assume that we know we are only getting one playoff run with Kyrie. You have to assume the parties in the trade believe he may be available for two playoff runs.

With that calculus in mind, considering the rest of the talent the Celts had/have on the roster, you're basically asking if two potential Finals runs is worth a top 10 draft pick.  I say yes, especially given how much young talent the Celts already have and how many draft picks the Celts have in the pipeline even after the trade.

Except the hypothetical presented suggests that you *do* know ahead of time, just like you know it’s the #8 pick and that Kyrie is leaving.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Moranis on June 14, 2018, 12:54:37 PM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

[dang] this list is terrible.  :o ;D

Yeah. Rudy Gay is by far the best guy on this list. Who's second? Jamal Crawford. I'd definitely rather have Kyrie for 2 years than Jamal Crawford for 7.
Sure but in the last 10ish years, Joakim Noah, DeMar DeRozan, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker, Andre Drummond have all been the 9th pick.  Going back further you get Amar'e Stoudemire and Andre Iguodala.  The last 3, #9 picks in the 90's were Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Shawn Marion.  Recent #10 picks include CJ McCollum, Paul George, Brook Lopez as well as some solid players like Andrew Bynum, Austin Rivers, Brandon Jennings, and the still developing Thon Maker and Justice Winslow.  From 1998 to 2002, the 10th picks were Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Keyon Dooling, Joe Johnson, and Caron Butler.  Some recent 11th picks include Myles Turner, Klay Thompson, and JJ Redick.  Heck even Domantas Sabonis looks like a solid player.

Just because teams flub the 8th pick doesn't mean there isn't generally a lot of talent available.

Obviously this is not an exact science. I think the point is just to show that a pick in that range is a crap shoot. Which it is.

If you're expanding to the 11th pick (going back to '00), you're talking about a pool of 68 players. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd say there are 9 players that are of the caliber of Kyrie. Other might think more or less but, for me, that means there's about a 13% chance of having a comparable player on the board. But then I'd have to know for sure who the best pick would be or if that player exists at all in the given draft I'm selecting from.

A good player can be gotten at #8 but it's unlikely. I'd rather have the certainty (health provided, but that's true of the draft pick as well) of a first overall caliber talent for 2 years.
Ah but in this scenario you would have the 8th pick for at least 5 years and most likely at least 8.  So even if the player isn't as good at his peak as Irving is, there is a strong argument that 8 years of that player is worth more than 2 years of Irving (especially when you factor in his injury and non-playing in the playoffs in at least 1 of those years - a year the team made the ECF without him).  So that is really the meat of the discussion. 
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Big333223 on June 14, 2018, 12:58:46 PM
The number 8 pick?  Are you kidding me?  Have people looked at the history of that pick?

I would take Kyrie over any 3 of those picks.

Quote
2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers
2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers

[dang] this list is terrible.  :o ;D

Yeah. Rudy Gay is by far the best guy on this list. Who's second? Jamal Crawford. I'd definitely rather have Kyrie for 2 years than Jamal Crawford for 7.
Sure but in the last 10ish years, Joakim Noah, DeMar DeRozan, Gordon Hayward, Kemba Walker, Andre Drummond have all been the 9th pick.  Going back further you get Amar'e Stoudemire and Andre Iguodala.  The last 3, #9 picks in the 90's were Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Shawn Marion.  Recent #10 picks include CJ McCollum, Paul George, Brook Lopez as well as some solid players like Andrew Bynum, Austin Rivers, Brandon Jennings, and the still developing Thon Maker and Justice Winslow.  From 1998 to 2002, the 10th picks were Paul Pierce, Jason Terry, Keyon Dooling, Joe Johnson, and Caron Butler.  Some recent 11th picks include Myles Turner, Klay Thompson, and JJ Redick.  Heck even Domantas Sabonis looks like a solid player.

Just because teams flub the 8th pick doesn't mean there isn't generally a lot of talent available.

Obviously this is not an exact science. I think the point is just to show that a pick in that range is a crap shoot. Which it is.

If you're expanding to the 11th pick (going back to '00), you're talking about a pool of 68 players. Of the ones you mentioned, I'd say there are 9 players that are of the caliber of Kyrie. Other might think more or less but, for me, that means there's about a 13% chance of having a comparable player on the board. But then I'd have to know for sure who the best pick would be or if that player exists at all in the given draft I'm selecting from.

A good player can be gotten at #8 but it's unlikely. I'd rather have the certainty (health provided, but that's true of the draft pick as well) of a first overall caliber talent for 2 years.
Ah but in this scenario you would have the 8th pick for at least 5 years and most likely at least 8.  So even if the player isn't as good at his peak as Irving is, there is a strong argument that 8 years of that player is worth more than 2 years of Irving (especially when you factor in his injury and non-playing in the playoffs in at least 1 of those years - a year the team made the ECF without him).  So that is really the meat of the discussion.

Right but the odds of landing one of those guys is still too prohibitive for me. You can even add into that that 2-3 years of any of these drafted players is likely going to be developmental years.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: celticsclay on June 14, 2018, 01:13:54 PM
I don't really know what to say to this thread. The cavs fan regularly discuss and accept the trade as a complete disaster. I can share their hundreds of pages threads crying about it over the last year including in the last couple of days. I feel like people got really invested in arguing it was a bad trade and now are trying to think of strange hypothetical in which we could somehow still lose a trade we clearly won. A lot of strange wasted energy...

Also, are other people also considering if Kyrie is in Cleveland right now Lebron is probably way more likely to stay there creating another tough path to contention for us for the next 5 years with Hayward, Horford and Tatum?
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: PhoSita on June 14, 2018, 01:40:21 PM
If we're playing this game we can't assume that we know we are only getting one playoff run with Kyrie. You have to assume the parties in the trade believe he may be available for two playoff runs.

With that calculus in mind, considering the rest of the talent the Celts had/have on the roster, you're basically asking if two potential Finals runs is worth a top 10 draft pick.  I say yes, especially given how much young talent the Celts already have and how many draft picks the Celts have in the pipeline even after the trade.

Except the hypothetical presented suggests that you *do* know ahead of time, just like you know it’s the #8 pick and that Kyrie is leaving.

I don't see the point of the hypothetical. The deal has already been made so why ask questions based on info that wasn't available at the time the deal was made?

I agree that the fact that kyrie is leaving and that the pick is number eight are also things the parties didn't know at the time of the deal. But I think the value of the pick is something the parties can reasonably estimate.

As for Kyrie leaving, I think it's interesting to entertain the idea of whether the trade would make sense if the parties knew going in that he would likely leave. Teams consider deals like that all the time.

Anyway, forced to answer based on the idea that the parties know that Kyrie will only be available for one playoff run, I'm inclined to still say yes to the deal because the Celts are that close to making a run to the finals and perhaps even winning a title.  It's a much closer thing, though.

Luckily, we don't have to assume that Kyrie is leaving because there's a good chance he isnt going to. And if he does we shouldn't judge the trade as if that was a foregone conclusion.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: green_bballers13 on June 14, 2018, 02:50:06 PM
Hmmmm Trae Young or Kyrie Irving.

Let me think about this one for a while....
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Moranis on June 14, 2018, 02:50:20 PM
If we're playing this game we can't assume that we know we are only getting one playoff run with Kyrie. You have to assume the parties in the trade believe he may be available for two playoff runs.

With that calculus in mind, considering the rest of the talent the Celts had/have on the roster, you're basically asking if two potential Finals runs is worth a top 10 draft pick.  I say yes, especially given how much young talent the Celts already have and how many draft picks the Celts have in the pipeline even after the trade.

Except the hypothetical presented suggests that you *do* know ahead of time, just like you know it’s the #8 pick and that Kyrie is leaving.

I don't see the point of the hypothetical. The deal has already been made so why ask questions based on info that wasn't available at the time the deal was made?

I agree that the fact that kyrie is leaving and that the pick is number eight are also things the parties didn't know at the time of the deal. But I think the value of the pick is something the parties can reasonably estimate.

As for Kyrie leaving, I think it's interesting to entertain the idea of whether the trade would make sense if the parties knew going in that he would likely leave. Teams consider deals like that all the time.

Anyway, forced to answer based on the idea that the parties know that Kyrie will only be available for one playoff run, I'm inclined to still say yes to the deal because the Celts are that close to making a run to the finals and perhaps even winning a title.  It's a much closer thing, though.

Luckily, we don't have to assume that Kyrie is leaving because there's a good chance he isnt going to. And if he does we shouldn't judge the trade as if that was a foregone conclusion.
The point of the hypothetical is one of value and how you would determine it.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: green_bballers13 on June 14, 2018, 03:04:32 PM
I'll play. Under this goofball hypothetical, I would not trade the 8th pick in any draft for any player that has told me that he will not resign in Boston.

I don't want a player that doesn't want to be here. I don't care if his name is Lebron or Michael. If a player doesn't like the city, and has publicly stated that he will not be back, there's a lot of pressure to win at least one championship in those two years. I also think there are chemistry concerns with a leader that clearly is a rental.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: celticsclay on June 14, 2018, 03:21:21 PM
I'll play. Under this goofball hypothetical, I would not trade the 8th pick in any draft for any player that has told me that he will not resign in Boston.

I don't want a player that doesn't want to be here. I don't care if his name is Lebron or Michael. If a player doesn't like the city, and has publicly stated that he will not be back, there's a lot of pressure to win at least one championship in those two years. I also think there are chemistry concerns with a leader that clearly is a rental.

Kyrie said this?
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Moranis on June 14, 2018, 03:26:05 PM
I'll play. Under this goofball hypothetical, I would not trade the 8th pick in any draft for any player that has told me that he will not resign in Boston.

I don't want a player that doesn't want to be here. I don't care if his name is Lebron or Michael. If a player doesn't like the city, and has publicly stated that he will not be back, there's a lot of pressure to win at least one championship in those two years. I also think there are chemistry concerns with a leader that clearly is a rental.

Kyrie said this?
no and why would you assume he did.  this is a hypothetical thread and he clearly stated he was playing along.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tenn_smoothie on June 15, 2018, 02:32:56 AM
At some point the Celtics need a culture change within the organization .... from mercenary and cold hearted and only $$$ matters to getting back to Celtics Tradition and pride, where guys maybe give a hometown discount to remain a Celtics.   In the "Trader Danny" Era this is impossible. They have the coach for it. Can the GM reign in his ego for being in the headlines with every trade rumor, and instead take a more behind the scenes approach more focused on continuity rather than block buster deals.

As to Kyrie, I have posted elsewhere his heart is with the Knicks and he will be there once his contract expires if not sooner.

Wow !!  I could not have said it any better. As much as Danny wants to prove himself superior in the front office to Red, he does need to cultivate some of Red's humanity and loyalty to his players. We have fortunately become a franchise with a very good culture again, but Danny needs to treat his players a little better to make the Celtics that special franchise once again.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: tenn_smoothie on June 15, 2018, 02:47:10 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Because we can win a championship this year, and if Kyrie walks we have cap space to sign someone else.

Nope, no cap space.

Under the scenario laid out, we get a one year rental of Kyrie for a lottery pick, then he walks. That’s silly.

If Irving walked as an unrestricted free agent after this season, why is it that you say we would not be able to use his $20-mil salary to go after other free agents who actually want to be here?

Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: gouki88 on June 15, 2018, 03:35:29 AM
At some point the Celtics need a culture change within the organization .... from mercenary and cold hearted and only $$$ matters to getting back to Celtics Tradition and pride, where guys maybe give a hometown discount to remain a Celtics.   In the "Trader Danny" Era this is impossible. They have the coach for it. Can the GM reign in his ego for being in the headlines with every trade rumor, and instead take a more behind the scenes approach more focused on continuity rather than block buster deals.

As to Kyrie, I have posted elsewhere his heart is with the Knicks and he will be there once his contract expires if not sooner.

Wow !!  I could not have said it any better. As much as Danny wants to prove himself superior in the front office to Red, he does need to cultivate some of Red's humanity and loyalty to his players. We have fortunately become a franchise with a very good culture again, but Danny needs to treat his players a little better to make the Celtics that special franchise once again.
::)
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Roy H. on June 15, 2018, 06:10:19 AM
If the trade was 2 seasons (one playoffs) of Kyrie for the 8th pick?  And he leaves for another team with no additional compensation?

No way. Why would anybody make that trade?

Because we can win a championship this year, and if Kyrie walks we have cap space to sign someone else.

Nope, no cap space.

Under the scenario laid out, we get a one year rental of Kyrie for a lottery pick, then he walks. That’s silly.

If Irving walked as an unrestricted free agent after this season, why is it that you say we would not be able to use his $20-mil salary to go after other free agents who actually want to be here?

Right now, assuming Irving walks, we have something like $80 million committed. That’s without accounting for Smart, Rozier, draft picks, cap charges etc.  The salary cap will be be most likely under $110 million. So, even if Kyrie, Smart, Morris and Rozier departed, and we “stashed” all of our picks, we wouldn’t be able to sign a max free agent (making $30+ million).

Now, you can easily get there if you start trading off other players, but what’s the sense?

(Keep in mind that this is the vastly simplified version. )

Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Casperian on June 15, 2018, 07:55:09 AM
Man, some of the mental gymnastics in this thread to justify that mess of a trade...

We're binding ressources, from assets over cap space to chances for young players to grow (among many, many other things) for two years of non-contention, only to let the center piece of that trade walk away for nothing, hurting team continuity in the process. Kyrie Irving is not that much better than Isaiah Thomas.

Green goggles off, that trade had nothing but downside. But hey, at least Pags got his wish of building a team full of former Duke players, so there's that.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Beat LA on June 15, 2018, 08:00:19 AM
At some point the Celtics need a culture change within the organization .... from mercenary and cold hearted and only $$$ matters to getting back to Celtics Tradition and pride, where guys maybe give a hometown discount to remain a Celtics.   In the "Trader Danny" Era this is impossible. They have the coach for it. Can the GM reign in his ego for being in the headlines with every trade rumor, and instead take a more behind the scenes approach more focused on continuity rather than block buster deals.

As to Kyrie, I have posted elsewhere his heart is with the Knicks and he will be there once his contract expires if not sooner.

Wow !!  I could not have said it any better. As much as Danny wants to prove himself superior in the front office to Red, he does need to cultivate some of Red's humanity and loyalty to his players. We have fortunately become a franchise with a very good culture again, but Danny needs to treat his players a little better to make the Celtics that special franchise once again.

Like the Olive Garden ;) ::) ;D.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Vermont Green on June 15, 2018, 08:21:59 AM
This tread is really confusing.  There is clearly some point or agenda behind it but I don't get it.

The hypothetical in this is that you are trading for a player that you know will not resign with you after his contract is up.  That is not a real hypothetical but, OK.  Also part of the hypothetical is that you know in advance that he is going to be unavailable at the end of the first of his two seasons and that he is only available for one play off run of the two seasons that you have the player.  I just don't even know what to do with that one.  Maybe you could say that you know in advance that he is going to have to go to jail or something so he was not available for the playoffs.

To me, that is just too much twisting of reality in order to make up a scenario where you can say "see, it wasn't good to trade for him".

I will spin this another way.  Say that on July 1, Kyrie picks up his option so he is under contract for two years and we offer him to Cleveland for the #8 (I know the salaries don't work but this is a fantasy thread so I am playing along).  There is still the chance that he will have knee problems (perhaps high likelihood).  It is unlikely that he will resign with Cleveland after the two seasons.  This is not exactly the same but close.  Does anyone really think that Cleveland doesn't do this trade in a second?  Or that we would be worse off for it if we made this trade?

I guess some people value the #8 pick much more than I do.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: gouki88 on June 15, 2018, 08:41:51 AM
Man, some of the mental gymnastics in this thread to justify that mess of a trade...

We're binding ressources, from assets over cap space to chances for young players to grow (among many, many other things) for two years of non-contention, only to let the center piece of that trade walk away for nothing, hurting team continuity in the process. Kyrie Irving is not that much better than Isaiah Thomas.

Green goggles off, that trade had nothing but downside. But hey, at least Pags got his wish of building a team full of former Duke players, so there's that.
I think by now I’ve realised that your posts are just bait
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: dreamgreen on June 15, 2018, 09:16:49 AM
Doesn't work like that. You really believe if Irving wont resign with us Danny wont turn it into something good, he's just going to let him walk without getting anything out of it? ::)
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Chris22 on June 15, 2018, 12:19:53 PM
It was an awesome trade. It gives a real shot at a championship next year.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: celticsclay on June 15, 2018, 12:31:54 PM
Man, some of the mental gymnastics in this thread to justify that mess of a trade...

We're binding ressources, from assets over cap space to chances for young players to grow (among many, many other things) for two years of non-contention, only to let the center piece of that trade walk away for nothing, hurting team continuity in the process. Kyrie Irving is not that much better than Isaiah Thomas.

Green goggles off, that trade had nothing but downside. But hey, at least Pags got his wish of building a team full of former Duke players, so there's that.

If you are going to try and bait people with this kind of stuff at least keep it grounded in reality. The Celtics will enter the season as a top 4 favorite to win it all and quite possibly favorites to win the east. Nobody is going to call a team with a healthy Irving, Hayward, Tatum, Brown and Horford with Smart, Morris, Rozier a non-contender. Get serious. 
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: celticsclay on June 15, 2018, 12:32:54 PM
This tread is really confusing.  There is clearly some point or agenda behind it but I don't get it.

The hypothetical in this is that you are trading for a player that you know will not resign with you after his contract is up.  That is not a real hypothetical but, OK.  Also part of the hypothetical is that you know in advance that he is going to be unavailable at the end of the first of his two seasons and that he is only available for one play off run of the two seasons that you have the player.  I just don't even know what to do with that one.  Maybe you could say that you know in advance that he is going to have to go to jail or something so he was not available for the playoffs.

To me, that is just too much twisting of reality in order to make up a scenario where you can say "see, it wasn't good to trade for him".

I will spin this another way.  Say that on July 1, Kyrie picks up his option so he is under contract for two years and we offer him to Cleveland for the #8 (I know the salaries don't work but this is a fantasy thread so I am playing along).  There is still the chance that he will have knee problems (perhaps high likelihood).  It is unlikely that he will resign with Cleveland after the two seasons.  This is not exactly the same but close.  Does anyone really think that Cleveland doesn't do this trade in a second?  Or that we would be worse off for it if we made this trade?

I guess some people value the #8 pick much more than I do.

You have it a hundred percent right. This is what is happening in this thread. I posted the same point a page ago.
Title: Re: Ultimately would you trade 2018 8th pick for 2 seasons of Irving? (poll)
Post by: Big333223 on June 15, 2018, 05:18:40 PM
This tread is really confusing.  There is clearly some point or agenda behind it but I don't get it.

The hypothetical in this is that you are trading for a player that you know will not resign with you after his contract is up.  That is not a real hypothetical but, OK.  Also part of the hypothetical is that you know in advance that he is going to be unavailable at the end of the first of his two seasons and that he is only available for one play off run of the two seasons that you have the player.  I just don't even know what to do with that one.  Maybe you could say that you know in advance that he is going to have to go to jail or something so he was not available for the playoffs.

To me, that is just too much twisting of reality in order to make up a scenario where you can say "see, it wasn't good to trade for him".

I will spin this another way.  Say that on July 1, Kyrie picks up his option so he is under contract for two years and we offer him to Cleveland for the #8 (I know the salaries don't work but this is a fantasy thread so I am playing along).  There is still the chance that he will have knee problems (perhaps high likelihood).  It is unlikely that he will resign with Cleveland after the two seasons.  This is not exactly the same but close.  Does anyone really think that Cleveland doesn't do this trade in a second?  Or that we would be worse off for it if we made this trade?

I guess some people value the #8 pick much more than I do.

You have it a hundred percent right. This is what is happening in this thread. I posted the same point a page ago.

I saw the point of the thread as being to gauge just how valuable people saw the 8th pick versus two years of an all star.

I don't think you can use this hypothetical as any kind of reasoning as being for or against the Kyrie trade.