Hayward was an out West player

[footey]

I really never watched the Jazz,being out of country and busy watching my own son play and not watching NCAA's..
So Hayward the few times i saw him was a good white guy playing with huge center.I never saw any blazing speed or burst ,no huge vertical that got my attention.
More a tennis star playing basketball-no streets to his game.
That was before he came to Celtics,before Kyrie said how much he wanted to play with him and the Butler connection with Brad.
Is Hayward like Horford a really really good player at everything and consistent is that what makes him great

The thrill of watching Kyrie this season,the growth of Jaylen as an outside shooter,Brown playing like a vet and now Rozier
-There was the emergence of Marcus Morris,the surprise of Theis and continued defensive stardom of Smart.
It all started with we are getting Smart back for playoffs  that is a huge plus.
But then was followed quickly with the thought how good is Hayward and how ignorant i was of his talent and skills.
Watching Jaylen eviscerate the Bucks(that works) and Rozier locking horns with Bledsoe and be so dominant and exciting
 Rozier and Jaylen have that speed and athleticism that set them apart and then there is Tatum so skilled like Horford and does Hayward fit in that category???
I'm going to have to go back and watch his past highlight tapes'
How embarrassing to have to admit so little knowledge about such an important piece for Celtics but i must excuse myself because who would have thought he would go down like that.

Rollie your post has some implied biases against white guys who are not super quick or “long”.

 You know, like Larry Bird.

Think before you speak.

Everyone has some implicit biases. Everyone. It is human nature. At least Rollie is more honest than most people

He also called Hayward an ‘out west’ player. That’s another bias.

When Rollie is up front with these biases, I appreciate it because I can better evaluate his statements

Sorry but racial based biases are obnoxious and indefensible on Celtics Blog. Replace “white”with black and this thread would get shut down in two seconds.

[Eddie20]

Hayward is a very athletic player (highlights below). Besides the vertical, his lateral quickness, which is a main reason he's such a good defender and made him such a good tennis prospect, is elite. People assume he's not athletic because of the way he looks, but he's way more athletic than Middleton (using him since he's a good player we are currently playing), yet no one ever calls Middleton's athleticism into question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O-isBj5aas

[nickagneta]

Rollie was wrong to use the white player bias. He has been told by several here it was wrong. He apologized. Knowing rollie, he'll never do it again. Let's move on.

[green_bballers13]

I really never watched the Jazz,being out of country and busy watching my own son play and not watching NCAA's..
So Hayward the few times i saw him was a good white guy playing with huge center.I never saw any blazing speed or burst ,no huge vertical that got my attention.
More a tennis star playing basketball-no streets to his game.
That was before he came to Celtics,before Kyrie said how much he wanted to play with him and the Butler connection with Brad.
Is Hayward like Horford a really really good player at everything and consistent is that what makes him great

The thrill of watching Kyrie this season,the growth of Jaylen as an outside shooter,Brown playing like a vet and now Rozier
-There was the emergence of Marcus Morris,the surprise of Theis and continued defensive stardom of Smart.
It all started with we are getting Smart back for playoffs  that is a huge plus.
But then was followed quickly with the thought how good is Hayward and how ignorant i was of his talent and skills.
Watching Jaylen eviscerate the Bucks(that works) and Rozier locking horns with Bledsoe and be so dominant and exciting
 Rozier and Jaylen have that speed and athleticism that set them apart and then there is Tatum so skilled like Horford and does Hayward fit in that category???
I'm going to have to go back and watch his past highlight tapes'
How embarrassing to have to admit so little knowledge about such an important piece for Celtics but i must excuse myself because who would have thought he would go down like that.

Rollie your post has some implied biases against white guys who are not super quick or “long”.

 You know, like Larry Bird.

Think before you speak.

Everyone has some implicit biases. Everyone. It is human nature. At least Rollie is more honest than most people

He also called Hayward an ‘out west’ player. That’s another bias.

When Rollie is up front with these biases, I appreciate it because I can better evaluate his statements

Sorry but racial based biases are obnoxious and indefensible on Celtics Blog. Replace “white”with black and this thread would get shut down in two seconds.

EDIT: I said let's move on

Regarding Hayward, I think that Danny may have overextended. Yes, he was the best player available. Like Horford, however, it is tough to pay second tier players top money. If Horford and Hayward are getting close to $30m per year, I think Irving is worth $40ish. That's $100m on 3 players. I think we're either going to be paying luxury tax at some point soon, or Danny is going to be creative by continuing to pick and play young (underpaid) athletes.

[nickagneta]

I really never watched the Jazz,being out of country and busy watching my own son play and not watching NCAA's..
So Hayward the few times i saw him was a good white guy playing with huge center.I never saw any blazing speed or burst ,no huge vertical that got my attention.
More a tennis star playing basketball-no streets to his game.
That was before he came to Celtics,before Kyrie said how much he wanted to play with him and the Butler connection with Brad.
Is Hayward like Horford a really really good player at everything and consistent is that what makes him great

The thrill of watching Kyrie this season,the growth of Jaylen as an outside shooter,Brown playing like a vet and now Rozier
-There was the emergence of Marcus Morris,the surprise of Theis and continued defensive stardom of Smart.
It all started with we are getting Smart back for playoffs  that is a huge plus.
But then was followed quickly with the thought how good is Hayward and how ignorant i was of his talent and skills.
Watching Jaylen eviscerate the Bucks(that works) and Rozier locking horns with Bledsoe and be so dominant and exciting
 Rozier and Jaylen have that speed and athleticism that set them apart and then there is Tatum so skilled like Horford and does Hayward fit in that category???
I'm going to have to go back and watch his past highlight tapes'
How embarrassing to have to admit so little knowledge about such an important piece for Celtics but i must excuse myself because who would have thought he would go down like that.

Rollie your post has some implied biases against white guys who are not super quick or “long”.

 You know, like Larry Bird.

Think before you speak.

Everyone has some implicit biases. Everyone. It is human nature. At least Rollie is more honest than most people

He also called Hayward an ‘out west’ player. That’s another bias.

When Rollie is up front with these biases, I appreciate it because I can better evaluate his statements

Sorry but racial based biases are obnoxious and indefensible on Celtics Blog. Replace “white”with black and this thread would get shut down in two seconds.

EDIT: I said let's move on

Regarding Hayward, I think that Danny may have overextended. Yes, he was the best player available. Like Horford, however, it is tough to pay second tier players top money. If Horford and Hayward are getting close to $30m per year, I think Irving is worth $40ish. That's $100m on 3 players. I think we're either going to be paying luxury tax at some point soon, or Danny is going to be creative by continuing to pick and play young (underpaid) athletes.

I have no problem with the money Danny gave Horford and Hayward. Horford was the 2nd best free agent available at the time and Hayward was the best. We are paying them both max while severely underpaying Brown, Tatum, Kyrie, Rozier, Smart and Morris this year and next. By the time Horford has to be redone at less mobey, Brown will get a big raise. By the time Hayward needs to be re-upped at less money, Tatum will get a big raise.

I love the core and think the money will even itself all out in the end because of the timing of the different contracts.

[Ogaju]

I've read many of your posts over the last year and I must admit that I don't really understand them.

Do you just post your daily thoughts in a series of notes scribbled on a piece of paper without organizing them? Is this some form of poetry that I haven't encountered? The entire thing seems so bizarre.

Most of the time i am bedridden and hold  the laptop tilted with one hand balanced on my chest and struggle with cap button.
It used to bother people with long run on sentences. So i developed this post card style.I just post for fun and impulsively it keeps me happy and i apologize for my muddled attempts.I have had a few mini strokes, sometimes my speaking gets slurred .So maybe my thought process does also.I know my hands are shaky.
My wife will not let me watch the games live it's better if i know who won -can't kick off watching the Celts.So Premier League pass and replays the next morning but i watched Sundays overtime live "Scary good" a phrase the kids use overhear for a like Kyrie move but it was for real. Not doing that again.
Still young at heart(pun intended) you asked you got it -no self pity for me..
Just think of it as abstract,free flowing with poor punctuation habits and computer skills.

TP Rollie...keep on posting, and listen to your wife.

[green_bballers13]

I really never watched the Jazz,being out of country and busy watching my own son play and not watching NCAA's..
So Hayward the few times i saw him was a good white guy playing with huge center.I never saw any blazing speed or burst ,no huge vertical that got my attention.
More a tennis star playing basketball-no streets to his game.
That was before he came to Celtics,before Kyrie said how much he wanted to play with him and the Butler connection with Brad.
Is Hayward like Horford a really really good player at everything and consistent is that what makes him great

The thrill of watching Kyrie this season,the growth of Jaylen as an outside shooter,Brown playing like a vet and now Rozier
-There was the emergence of Marcus Morris,the surprise of Theis and continued defensive stardom of Smart.
It all started with we are getting Smart back for playoffs  that is a huge plus.
But then was followed quickly with the thought how good is Hayward and how ignorant i was of his talent and skills.
Watching Jaylen eviscerate the Bucks(that works) and Rozier locking horns with Bledsoe and be so dominant and exciting
 Rozier and Jaylen have that speed and athleticism that set them apart and then there is Tatum so skilled like Horford and does Hayward fit in that category???
I'm going to have to go back and watch his past highlight tapes'
How embarrassing to have to admit so little knowledge about such an important piece for Celtics but i must excuse myself because who would have thought he would go down like that.

Rollie your post has some implied biases against white guys who are not super quick or “long”.

 You know, like Larry Bird.

Think before you speak.

Everyone has some implicit biases. Everyone. It is human nature. At least Rollie is more honest than most people

He also called Hayward an ‘out west’ player. That’s another bias.

When Rollie is up front with these biases, I appreciate it because I can better evaluate his statements

Sorry but racial based biases are obnoxious and indefensible on Celtics Blog. Replace “white”with black and this thread would get shut down in two seconds.

EDIT: I said let's move on

Regarding Hayward, I think that Danny may have overextended. Yes, he was the best player available. Like Horford, however, it is tough to pay second tier players top money. If Horford and Hayward are getting close to $30m per year, I think Irving is worth $40ish. That's $100m on 3 players. I think we're either going to be paying luxury tax at some point soon, or Danny is going to be creative by continuing to pick and play young (underpaid) athletes.

I have no problem with the money Danny gave Horford and Hayward. Horford was the 2nd best free agent available at the time and Hayward was the best. We are paying them both max while severely underpaying Brown, Tatum, Kyrie, Rozier, Smart and Morris this year and next. By the time Horford has to be redone at less mobey, Brown will get a big raise. By the time Hayward needs to be re-upped at less money, Tatum will get a big raise.

I love the core and think the money will even itself all out in the end because of the timing of the different contracts.

Yeah, I wrote my response before you gave your statement in green.

I also really like the core. I do think it is dependent on player improvement, which is ok considering how young the team is. A championship contending team, in my opinion, is dependent on Tatum/Brown reaching All-Star status (or close to it). I'd love to see them keep Rozier, but I think he will want to start. I wouldn't be shocked if Horford leaves for a last, big contract.

[Erik]

Just for the record, I don't have anything against the posts.

[GreenEnvy]

Some thoughts on the this thread
1. Before the season I thought Hayward would be our best player (mostly because Kyrie isn't great defensively)
2. In terms of athleticism, the Jazz would run backdoor alley-oops to Hayward a couple times a game. I think that speaks to his athleticism. In fact I believe the Celtics would have done the same (since it was on that exact play Hayward was hurt).
3. Hayward is a knockdown shooter, can create in isolation, out of the pick and roll, score off cuts, spotting up or in the post. He might not be as athletic as long/athletic as George or as strong as Butler but he makes up for it by being able to score in every way possible.
4. I expect this team to not only finish with Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Horford I expect them to start that way too.

As to your number 2 point, Hayward had more dunks last year than either Jimmy Butler or Paul George. I think that shows something about his athleticism.

And even more impressive, he had more And-1’s last season than shots blocked. I believe he was one of three players in the entire league (want to say Durant and LeBron, not positive though) to do such feat.

I’d say that is a testament to his size, athleticism, and intelligence.

[SHAQATTACK]

along with John Wayne

[Neurotic Guy]

A side question: What exactly is it that worries people here about paying luxury tax?   I know it's cliché to say, but it isn't our money.   Is there some downside to paying luxury tax that I am unaware of -- any penalty other than the tax itself?  If not, then the question should be for Wyc and Steve, etc -- how much do they care about paying the tax?   If they are "all in" then what do we care? 
I would guess that as the C's grow in popularity as a contender, the revenue that comes in likely makes up for some if not all of the tax.  My guess is that our ownership has that all nicely calculated.

[nickagneta]

A side question: What exactly is it that worries people here about paying luxury tax?   I know it's cliché to say, but it isn't our money.   Is there some downside to paying luxury tax that I am unaware of -- any penalty other than the tax itself?  If not, then the question should be for Wyc and Steve, etc -- how much do they care about paying the tax?   If they are "all in" then what do we care? 
I would guess that as the C's grow in popularity as a contender, the revenue that comes in likely makes up for some if not all of the tax.  My guess is that our ownership has that all nicely calculated.

You want to limit the years you are paying tax as repeater tax penalties get costlier and costlier and limit how you can add players to your team. Its most cost effective to not be a taxpayer until you are a serious threat to win it all to maximize your chances at multiple championships. At some point, it just isn't worth it for a team to possibly spend $250 million a year on player salaries if you aren't winning it all.

[Green-18]

A side question: What exactly is it that worries people here about paying luxury tax?   I know it's cliché to say, but it isn't our money.   Is there some downside to paying luxury tax that I am unaware of -- any penalty other than the tax itself?  If not, then the question should be for Wyc and Steve, etc -- how much do they care about paying the tax?   If they are "all in" then what do we care? 
I would guess that as the C's grow in popularity as a contender, the revenue that comes in likely makes up for some if not all of the tax.  My guess is that our ownership has that all nicely calculated.

The NBA recently implemented an escalating repeater tax for any team that exceeds the luxry tax threshold for consecutive seasons.  It's potentially steep enough to wipe out ALL profits for even a big market franchise.  Right now the luxury tax threshold is $119 Million.  The Celtics avoided the tax this season but it will be difficult to stay under next year.

Let's look forward to 2019-20 and assume the Celtics have resigned Kyrie at the max, Marcus at $10 million per(could be more but I thought this was fair), and Rozier at $20 Million per(might need to match more than this on the open market).  This leaves us at $138 million in salary for just Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, Smart, Jaylen and Tatum.  We will still need to fill in the remaining roster with veteran free agents and draft picks.  Let's assume they manage to fill in the rest of the roster with only $12 million(this number would probably be higher).  This puts us at a payroll of $150 million.  The estimated luxury tax threshold for 2019-20 is $130 million.  The Celtics would pay an additional tax of $45 million on the $20 million above the luxury tax.  All in all the final payroll would come to $195 million. 

Things would get even worse in 2020.  Horford comes off the books but Jaylen would be due for a max deal.  Let's say our pre-tax payroll jumps to $160 million.  The Celtics would now enter the "repeater" tax where penalties become even worse.  The estimated tax for a $160 million payroll in 2020 is $104 million.  $264 million in payroll after tax is more than the Celtics total revenue from last season.  Keep in mind that I used conservative salary projections for guys like Smart and Rozier.

Obviously we have a few years before this gets insane but Danny will need to make some tough decisions.  It might serve the franchise best to trade Rozier for a draft pick or let him walk after next year.  Rookie contracts will become increasingly valuable when it comes time to pay guys like Jaylen and Tatum.

[green_bballers13]

A side question: What exactly is it that worries people here about paying luxury tax?   I know it's cliché to say, but it isn't our money.   Is there some downside to paying luxury tax that I am unaware of -- any penalty other than the tax itself?  If not, then the question should be for Wyc and Steve, etc -- how much do they care about paying the tax?   If they are "all in" then what do we care? 
I would guess that as the C's grow in popularity as a contender, the revenue that comes in likely makes up for some if not all of the tax.  My guess is that our ownership has that all nicely calculated.

There's always limits to wealth. There aren't too many billionaires that are interested in losing hundreds of millions of dollars if they don't have to. GM's should be tasked with combining veterans and cheaper young players in a manner that is cost effective. That would be my view if I was an owner.

If you have the opportunity to put together an expensive all star squad, you pay the tax until you are able to replace veteran role players and aging stars with young cheapish players.

The tax is intended to punish teams for buying wins. It's for the social good to keep interest in all 30 markets.

[Green-18]

A side question: What exactly is it that worries people here about paying luxury tax?   I know it's cliché to say, but it isn't our money.   Is there some downside to paying luxury tax that I am unaware of -- any penalty other than the tax itself?  If not, then the question should be for Wyc and Steve, etc -- how much do they care about paying the tax?   If they are "all in" then what do we care? 
I would guess that as the C's grow in popularity as a contender, the revenue that comes in likely makes up for some if not all of the tax.  My guess is that our ownership has that all nicely calculated.

There's always limits to wealth. There aren't too many billionaires that are interested in losing hundreds of millions of dollars if they don't have to. GM's should be tasked with combining veterans and cheaper young players in a manner that is cost effective. That would be my view if I was an owner.

If you have the opportunity to put together an expensive all star squad, you pay the tax until you are able to replace veteran role players and aging stars with young cheapish players.

The tax is intended to punish teams for buying wins. It's for the social good to keep interest in all 30 markets.

I think we will see Wyc dip into the tax up to a certain point.  I did some quick math and a payroll of $145 million in two years would add roughly $16 million in taxes.  At that point the added revenue and team success should justify $161 million in spending.  Year 3 would become extremely difficult because the repeater rule comes into play.  A $145 million payroll would result in $171 million after tax.  What can't happen is a payroll that exceeds $150 million before tax.  Tier 3 of the repeater tax will become too much despite a projected increase in revenue as a perennial finals contender.