Author Topic: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right  (Read 6439 times)

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I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« on: November 23, 2012, 12:52:40 AM »

Offline tgreanier

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Look, it is easy to say offensive rebounds would be the difference maker for the Celtics. And in some games, you would be 100% correct. However, making offensive rebounding the ultimate statistical marker of a good team is silly. Like Doc said, the Spurs had only 6...but nobody was worried about it. I am not in any way saying the team is ok as is and we should just go on like this, but focusing on offensive boards is not the key to winning.

The biggest issue with the Celtics is because they are not focusing on offensive rebounds, they absolutely have to be able to play solid defense the bulk of every quarter. If they play defense like they have been - in very brief spurts we find decent defense - then no amount of offensive boards (realistically speaking) will make a difference to many outcomes.

What drives me crazy is people thinking getting a big center will be the key because it will increase offensive rebounds.  That would not be my goal - it would be to get some size in the middle, someone other than KG who clearly does not want to play the spot - to fill lanes on offense and defense. Sure, a big guy will get some offensive boards, but more importantly he will be a steady option for Rondo, a deterrent to the in-the-paint points we see way too often from opponents (I mean seriously, the Pistons?) and something for the other team to seriously worry about.

The Celtics were not a good offensive rebounding team in 2007-2008 either - and have never been ranked high under Doc. Why? His philosophy is based on positional situations. When you crash the glass - the traditional "follow your shot, man" mentality - you might find yourself getting more offensive boards, maybe even more second chance points and if everything lines up right, this new part of the offense could win some games. However, in the majority of situations, Doc is basing his ideas on the fact that crashing the boards rarely ends up as points against a decent defense and will far too often lead to his own defense being in 4-5 situations. The guy who crashes the boards will fail to get the rebound a lot more than he will get it (over the course of a season) and in those cases, he is out of position for defense, lagging behind when the other team pushes the floor and leading to easy buckets for any opponent.

So you will say something like, "But dummy, look at the games we have seen - the other teams have gotten so many second chance points, those come from offensive rebounds!" I grant you that - but this is not a testament to the power of the offensive rebound, but instead an indictment of the defensive breakdowns the Celtics have had all season. If you look back at all the games this year, the gobs of second chance points have not been because of opponents crashing the glass, focused on offensive rebounds, but instead on lackadaisical defense and guys not being in the right position.

I know this is an unpopular opinion and like most sports-related arguments, there is no way to prove it one way or another.

In short, I want to see Ainge go out and get talent for this team, I would especially love size, but I do not want to see Doc turn his team into a worse defense by upping the importance of offensive rebounds.

Let the flaming begin ;)
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Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2012, 01:34:11 AM »

Offline Lightskinsmurf

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When you said doc was right i was expecting this thread to be alot more stupid than it was but i agree with alot of what you said.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2012, 01:44:21 AM »

Offline tgreanier

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When you said doc was right i was expecting this thread to be alot more stupid than it was but i agree with alot of what you said.

Lol, glad it was only a little stupid :)
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Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2012, 02:02:15 AM »

Offline CelticsFan9

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What really bothers me is our defensive rebounding.  It's not that we're terrible, it's just that we need to improve.

I agree with you, offensive rebounding isn't that important.  We're overall pretty efficient offensively, so our points should come from running sets and in transition, not second-chance points.  A couple every now and then would be nice, though.

When this team gets it together defensively, and I think they will, opponents' possessions will likely result in a missed shot.  Our guys need to be ready and willing to box out and rebound.  I know they want to run, but you need the ball first.  If we are giving up on offensive boards, we need to show commitment on the other end.  Like I said, this team has the potential to be a very good defensive squad, but you have to close out the possession the right way.  So far, I've only seen Sullinger give full effort in boxing out.

If we could get more defensive boards, then that leads to less second-chance points for the opposition, as well as more fast-break opportunities for our team.

TP for saying something about this.  Personally, I'd like to know why people make such a fuss about offensive boards.  Do you really think get extra possessions every now and then is going to make us any more of a contender?

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2012, 02:14:05 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I agree and it's something I've been hinting at a little in one of the other threads a little while ago.

We could certainly use more EFFORT on rebounds, but tha's not our problem.  We were a poor offensive rebounding team in 2008 and won a title.  We were a poor offensive rebounding team last year and made the ECF.  Hell we were a horrible rebounding team in general last season and we not only made the ECF (in case that was some kind of fluke) but were also one of the top teams in the NBA after the All Star break.


So what is the difference?

In 2008 we were very good offensively...but last year our offense was horrid.

In neither of those years did we have an especially great bench - our bench last year was one of the weakest in the NBA with all the injuries. 

The common thing here is defense.  Both 2008 and in the second half of last season, we had one of the greatest defenses not just of the season, but of all time.

Last season we had truly elite defense - everything else (offense, rebounding, turnovers) we were among the worst teams in the league, so that should give you some idea of how important defense on it's own is.

This year we are equally bad at rebounding but our turnovers are much better and our offense is much better - our team is arguably much worse.  Why?  Defense.

As long as you play defense with 110% effort you give yourself a chance to win any game, against any opponent.  Avery is going to help a LOT when he returns - will that be enough? Not sure.  We'll see.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2012, 02:15:57 AM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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What really bothers me is our defensive rebounding.  It's not that we're terrible, it's just that we need to improve.

I agree with you, offensive rebounding isn't that important.  We're overall pretty efficient offensively, so our points should come from running sets and in transition, not second-chance points.  A couple every now and then would be nice, though.

When this team gets it together defensively, and I think they will, opponents' possessions will likely result in a missed shot.  Our guys need to be ready and willing to box out and rebound.  I know they want to run, but you need the ball first.  If we are giving up on offensive boards, we need to show commitment on the other end.  Like I said, this team has the potential to be a very good defensive squad, but you have to close out the possession the right way.  So far, I've only seen Sullinger give full effort in boxing out.

If we could get more defensive boards, then that leads to less second-chance points for the opposition, as well as more fast-break opportunities for our team.

TP for saying something about this.  Personally, I'd like to know why people make such a fuss about offensive boards.  Do you really think get extra possessions every now and then is going to make us any more of a contender?
Apparently we are not a bad defensive rebounding team at all. We are ranked 11th in def rebounding percentage. What really frustrates me is GIVING UP offensive boards. That is the most maddening thing of all. Once the defense shores up, that should lower substantially.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 02:17:16 AM »

Offline ianboyextreme

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Also, by the way, the reason we have been so highly ranked defensively is because of Doc's shunning of offensive rebounds. So, Doc is right and folks dont really know what theyre talking about.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 02:57:07 AM »

Offline Change

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrBGbQaCePw

Don't tell me offensive rebound doesn't make a difference in a game. Celtics leave themselves with very small margin for error utter disregard for o-rebounding. Seeing all 5 players retreating as soon as shoot goes up isn't a winning mindset. You're practically forfeiting a crucial element of the game. How much can hurt having just one guy mix it up inside? I seen games Anderson Varejao grab 10 offensive rebounds by himself. Those extra possessions can be different between winning and losing.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2012, 03:14:42 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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The lack of offensive rebounds is irritating, but to my eyes it's our sad defensive rebounding that kills us.

We don't have a single "real" rebounder on our team: Boxing out on every shot, always fighting for good positioning, that weirdly innate knack for knowing where the ball is going to go... You don't need height to do that, but it is a specific skill set that seems to be in short supply on our rotation.
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Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 04:14:10 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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I agree with the mentality that great transition defense is more important than a few extra possessions. BUT you still need to make sure you're aggressive on the defensive boards while at the same time being aggressive in transition to take advantage of the other team sending extra men... it's a thin line.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 05:16:36 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Then why can't we rebound defensively?  What is Doc's excuse there.   It takes away possessions, Doc is full of melarkey, we are a poor rebounding team.   Offensive rebounds, I can concede his point but it doesn't explain the poor defensive rebounding.   Are our guards cheating to cherry pick or snow bird?

As for our great transition defense, it is not that great anymore.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2012, 05:49:48 AM »

Offline relja

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Why does Doc constantly refuse to put KG and Wilcox in at the same time?
When you lose, the easy part is to see who gives up. Giving up is very simple. You basically take your stuff and walk away. To continue to work and to continue to compete is one of the most difficult things, especially when you really don't have anything - KG

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2012, 06:20:02 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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I don't care what Doc says, he don't have the players to play the type of game he is dreaming,,,( he needs LBJ)

LBJ player comes around one every 100 years,  get some bigs that can play and REBOUND the blank ball.   He get back to the promise land alot sooner rebounding the ball and playing interior defense.

He is full of non sense , fighting for control of the paint is critical.   See all the Lakers BANNERS they have hung using Shaq, Bynum and Gasol.

Rivers is on DRUGS ....Danny wake up!!! Knock some sense into him

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 06:26:31 AM »

Offline European NBA fan

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I absolutely agree with the OP. TP for you!

As I see it, the main reason that we don't get enough defensive rebounds is because our defense breaks down too often. You can't box out, if you miss your defensive rotations, and without boxing out, the defense loses it's advantage in rebounding. I'm not sure, that we need another big man for this, but it would obviously help.

Re: I know I will get smacked, but Doc is right
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 06:39:06 AM »

Offline Kuberski1

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Watched replay of the Spurs game....simple observation is that we were out-executed on both ends of the floor.   Put another way, they just ran their offense and especially defense better than us.   These things are fixable, and enough talent is there to be competitive.  Not saying things will get better, but that it's it he realm of possibility.