Let's Assume Rebuilding Begins in Earnest This Summer

[aporel#18]

Rebuilding started last year's deadline, when they didn't trade Ray. Do you remember?

By resigning the Big 3, DA chose to rebuild by contending, and I agree with that. You're not going to atract FAs if you don't have good/great players to play with. Boston is not South Beach, nor Hollywood.

Then they signed the O'Neals to be able to choose between resigning Perk or Baby, and trade the one who was able to bring back more in return. DA chose to keep Baby, by now, because Perk was bringing Green, Nenad and the Clippers pick. What Doc is failing at is showcasing them (Presti has done it for 2 years if we have to believe some people here). But they're nice pieces.

Green can be had next year for the qualifying offer, and Nenad could just walk away, like BBD. But they could also come back for team-friendly deals, that is, one-year deal for the right money, or multi-year for even less. This way, Green is a prospect but also a trade chip, and both Baby and Nenad can be role players/trade pieces.

Everything Danny has done since 2008 is keeping financial flexibility for "the summer of KG", aka 2012 offseason. The season is not over, but this summer we'll see what happens with those 3, I think they will be back. Add the Clipper's pick and Avery to the trading chips list. Not bad.

I'm giving PosImpos a TP for the OP, but I don't think we're seeing anything that big next summer. The 2012 trade deadline will be the first act, the 2012 Draft will be second, and the 2012 FA will be the third. Only then we'll see how good (or bad) was the trade, and the outcome of DA's strategy.

I don't think the Big 3 will be shopped around, they will be back in lesser roles for a year or two and retire in green, at least I hope so. Rondo is not going anyway unless Deron or CP3 are coming, and that's highly unlikely. Trades are involving the Clipper's pick, and the showcased Baby, Nenad and even Jeff Green. By then, hopefully Avery is worth something in return.

And now, we better think about how big will be tying the series at home, and beating LeChoke and his bums in 7 games...

Go Celtics!!!

[BballTim]

Lakers didn't draft Kobe.  They gave up Divac for him.

Indeed; I and I believe one other person in this thread were mistaken on that one.  I'm not sure whether that was luck or just a really, really savvy move on the part of the Lakers management.  Safe to say, though, that if the plan is to try and trade an aging star for a #13 pick who will end up being one of the greatest players ever, we're going to be waiting a while.

  I think it was a bit of both. The main reason the Lakers were making the trade was to free up money to sign Shaq, and I'm pretty sure that they had a rumored deal with a Canadian team to trade Divac that fell through. The Hornets trade was plan B.

[Cman]

Too early....

Ditto on two counts
(a) season is not over, and
(b) I still think there is a year left in this window, especially in a shortened season.

But TP for the "flame out" pun!

[Moranis]

My three part rebuilding idea, none of which will probably happen, but I think these are all fairly realistic trades that could happen (or something similar anyway)

Trade 1
Boston gets - Rudy Gay, Marcus Camby
Memphis gets - Wesley Matthews
Portland gets - Kevin Garnett, Avery Bradley

Trade 2
Boston gets - Chris Paul
New Orleans gets - Rajon Rondo, Jermaine O'Neal (or other filler), LAC #1, 2012 Bos #1

Trade 3
Boston gets Andris Biedrins, Martell Webster
Golden State gets - Darko Milicic
Minnesota gets - Ray Allen, Shaquille O'Neal (in for dollars)

New Boston lineup
PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Delonte West, Martell Webster, FREE AGENT
SF - Paul Pierce, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Martell Webster
PF - Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Glen Davis
C - Marcus Camby, Andris Biedrins, Nenad Krstic

Gets us a fairly young core (Gay, Paul, Green, Biedrins, and Webster all in the mid-20's) and with Gay, Paul would have a legitimate star to share the load with over the next decade (or so), which hopefully is enough to get him to sign that long term extension.  It does take us out of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes, but I don't think he is coming here anyway.

[PosImpos]

Too early....

But TP for the "flame out" pun!

Hahaha thanks.

[PosImpos]

My three part rebuilding idea, none of which will probably happen, but I think these are all fairly realistic trades that could happen (or something similar anyway)

Trade 1
Boston gets - Rudy Gay, Marcus Camby
Memphis gets - Wesley Matthews
Portland gets - Kevin Garnett, Avery Bradley

Trade 2
Boston gets - Chris Paul
New Orleans gets - Rajon Rondo, Jermaine O'Neal (or other filler), LAC #1, 2012 Bos #1

Trade 3
Boston gets Andris Biedrins, Martell Webster
Golden State gets - Darko Milicic
Minnesota gets - Ray Allen, Shaquille O'Neal (in for dollars)

New Boston lineup
PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Delonte West, Martell Webster, FREE AGENT
SF - Paul Pierce, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Martell Webster
PF - Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Glen Davis
C - Marcus Camby, Andris Biedrins, Nenad Krstic

Gets us a fairly young core (Gay, Paul, Green, Biedrins, and Webster all in the mid-20's) and with Gay, Paul would have a legitimate star to share the load with over the next decade (or so), which hopefully is enough to get him to sign that long term extension.  It does take us out of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes, but I don't think he is coming here anyway.

I like trade #2.  Not such a fan of the others.  I'm not sure why the T-Wolves make the trade, honestly, and I doubt Memphis would give up Rudy Gay (who was earning his near max contract before going down with an injury) in order to get Wesley Matthews.  I'm not sure either that Portland would leverage their future so much against winning now that they'd trade youth for KG.  Also, Rudy Gay is not a PF, and a front line of Gay and Camby would be very thin (literally) and easy to push around.

If we could pull off a couple trades to get Chris Paul and Rudy Gay, I'd be pretty excited.  Those are two guys you can reasonably build a team around, though we'd still need a big man who can score 15-20 pts inside and a defensive center.  But get Chris Paul and Rudy Gay and we'd be prepared to contend within a couple years.

Probably the most prudent path is to just make a play for Chris Paul and then hope we can convince Dwight to come here instead of LA or Brooklyn.  If he doesn't, then we make a play for other guys like Gay.

[Moranis]

My three part rebuilding idea, none of which will probably happen, but I think these are all fairly realistic trades that could happen (or something similar anyway)

Trade 1
Boston gets - Rudy Gay, Marcus Camby
Memphis gets - Wesley Matthews
Portland gets - Kevin Garnett, Avery Bradley

Trade 2
Boston gets - Chris Paul
New Orleans gets - Rajon Rondo, Jermaine O'Neal (or other filler), LAC #1, 2012 Bos #1

Trade 3
Boston gets Andris Biedrins, Martell Webster
Golden State gets - Darko Milicic
Minnesota gets - Ray Allen, Shaquille O'Neal (in for dollars)

New Boston lineup
PG - Chris Paul, Delonte West
SG - Delonte West, Martell Webster, FREE AGENT
SF - Paul Pierce, Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Martell Webster
PF - Rudy Gay, Jeff Green, Glen Davis
C - Marcus Camby, Andris Biedrins, Nenad Krstic

Gets us a fairly young core (Gay, Paul, Green, Biedrins, and Webster all in the mid-20's) and with Gay, Paul would have a legitimate star to share the load with over the next decade (or so), which hopefully is enough to get him to sign that long term extension.  It does take us out of the Dwight Howard sweepstakes, but I don't think he is coming here anyway.

I like trade #2.  Not such a fan of the others.  I'm not sure why the T-Wolves make the trade, honestly, and I doubt Memphis would give up Rudy Gay (who was earning his near max contract before going down with an injury) in order to get Wesley Matthews. 

Memphis is going to have financial issues as Marc Gasol is going to be looking for a big raise.  Matthews isn't as good as Gay, but he makes half the money, which will allow it to re-sign Gasol.  Also, it is obvious by how good Memphis is playing in this post season that they don't really need Gay. 

Minnesota needs a pure SG and needs veteran leadership.  Milicic and Webster are solid young players, but they are fairly redundant for that team.  Minny needs someone like Ray Allen.

I'm not sure either that Portland would leverage their future so much against winning now that they'd trade youth for KG.  Also, Rudy Gay is not a PF, and a front line of Gay and Camby would be very thin (literally) and easy to push around.

Portland has to make a choice between Matthews and Roy going forward.  I think this is the type of trade they would absolutely explore.  It gives up one redundant young player and their old guy, and improves their old guy and gives it the fire and passion that the team lacks.  KG would do so much good for Portland in a tough playoff series, and is exactly the type of player it is missing.   

I suspect the Celtics, when needed could play both Camby and Biedrins together, which would give them a very solid defensive and rebounding unit.  Against most teams that isn't necessary, but obviously would be a pretty tough unit when needed.

If we could pull off a couple trades to get Chris Paul and Rudy Gay, I'd be pretty excited.  Those are two guys you can reasonably build a team around, though we'd still need a big man who can score 15-20 pts inside and a defensive center.  But get Chris Paul and Rudy Gay and we'd be prepared to contend within a couple years.

That is why I made that third trade.  Biedrins is essentially Perkins.  He isn't a scorer, but he is a solid rebounder and defensive player and he is still just 25. 

Probably the most prudent path is to just make a play for Chris Paul and then hope we can convince Dwight to come here instead of LA or Brooklyn.  If he doesn't, then we make a play for other guys like Gay.

may be a prudent path.

[snively]

The best players - Paul and Howard both belong in this category - are really only good enough to put a team in that "not good enough to contend but too good to land a great draft pick" territory.  But if you have the means to grab two stars, then you can really contend.

I disagree with this.

Dwight Howard brought his team to the NBA Finals two years ago. In terms of starters, they had a top 10 PF, a top 15 PG and a top 15 SF and good bench (elite backup C, elite backup wing). Sprinkle a little more talent on that squad and they could have won a title.

The only reason the Magic are stuttering so much now is that they have a very weak supporting cast around him after their mid-season trades.

Chris Paul's New Orleans Hornets were close to a title a few years ago. They didn't have enough but they were close. Paul had three guys who were borderline All-Stars or a notch below All-Star status really alongside him. A top ten center in Tyson Chandler, a top 15 PF in David West and the last good year out of Peja Stojakovic and Peja was only really a mediocre starting SF at that point. If Peja was able to do a little more and/or if New Orleans had more depth ... they would have won the West that year.

Both of those guys, Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, are capable of fielding a legitimate title contender and winning a title without a second superstar alongside them.

Obviously, their chances improve significantly if their respective clubs could land a true superstar to play alongside them. Top tier talent is always preferable. The more the better.

But it's not an absolute necessity ... their teams are still capable of getting the job done without second/third superstar.

The 2003 Spurs are a good case in point.  Duncan was the only truly dominant player on that Spurs team.  Robinson was much diminished, Parker and Manu were green and playing roles similar to Rondo in 2008, and Stephen Jackson was an inefficient gunner.

The Net team they faced that year was also an example of a very successful team with essentially one star.  They didn't need another superstar to get over the hump, just a slightly less offensively incompetent supporting cast (Jason Collins saw way too many minutes for them).

Indeed those Nets teams would be my model for rebuilding a contending team around Rondo and the aging big 3 going forward (unless of course the CP3 in trade + Howard in free agency rebuild plan is anything other than a Celtic fan-tasy). Tough, energetic defensive players who can rebound, play with speed or strength and finish on the move.  Anderson Varejao, Jonas Jerebko, George Hill, Landry Fields, Delonte West, Jared Dudley, Marcin Gortat, Chuck Hayes...  Match a group of players like that with Rondo (and maybe an old Pierce for a few seasons) and toss in a designated volume scorer or two (like a Jamal Crawford, Ben Gordon, Lou Williams, Marcus Thornton, Michael Beasley) to try and produce some points out of the occasional iso set...

I think that could be an excellent team that could be forged from lower-level free agent signings, trades and the draft.

[LooseCannon]

Ray Allen is the difficult part of getting a rebuilding effort going.  He is technically not signed for next season, as he has a player option, plus he has a trade kicker.  If you can't trade him, you might be better off finding a way to discourage him from coming back so you can throw Avery Bradley to the wolves as the starting SG and either see him develop or see the team tank because of him.

If rebuilding begins this summer, I think it means getting rid of all the veteran bench players and replacing them with young projects with upside.  Instead of trying to bring back guys like Delonte West or Von Wafer, you bring in failed lottery picks like Joe Alexander, raw athletic players like Chris Johnson, and undrafted free agents like Wesley Matthews or Jeremy Lin. You gamble and hope that you get a few surprises that stick.

If you are trading guys like Ray Allen and KG, you dump them mid-season to teams that are looking for a veteran hand, not during the summer when teams are most optimistic about the players they already have under contract.  Jermaine O'Neal would probably be a better trade asset if he is healthy because he would be easier to match a salary to.  

If KG were traded, you would most likely be taking back an overpaid max salary guy signed beyond next season, plus young players and/or draft picks as compensation for taking on that salary.  Is there any overpaid max salary guy signed through 2014 that you want?  Besides Rudy Gay (who I don't want)?

I don't see Garnett or Allen being used in a trade that brings back a star.  I think you would be more likely to see a trade no better than something along the lines of Ray plus something useful to the Bucks for Carlos Delfino, Drew Gooden, and a future first round pick.

[TradeProposalDude]

Whether the Celtics win the title or not (it appears they won't, but stranger things have happened), Garnett is a candidate for retirement especially if the players are locked out for the '11-'12 season. Unless Garnett agrees to a trade in order to help the Celtics financially for their future plans, it is very possible that as we speak he's playing his last season.

Ray Allen is in terrific shape and there is no reason to believe that he won't come back to sport the Green after a lockout. Unfortunately, who knows how motivated he'll be. Allen was almost traded last season at the deadline, so if Ainge is looking into building for the future, I don't know if trading Ray is completely out of the picture. It just may be an option.

Paul Pierce and Rondo are the only locks to me. I'm pretty sure that with 1 ring under his belt Pierce is happy as a Celtic for the rest of his career. I know he doesn't want to lose anymore, but at least he can't call himself an eternal loser either so if he winds up his career here he can do it with a smile on his face. Rondo is really the only building block the Celtics have looking at our future. I don't think Jeff Green is a long term option due to being a tweener and appearing to be uncomfortable in his role.

As you can tell based on my above rambling, your guess is as good as mine. A team like BOS's that is declining will have a lot of uncertainty. Ainge made some gambles this season at deadline time that he lost. So he has to find a way through the draft and potentially free agency, although down the road, to restructure this team. A whole lot may not need to be done, but change is definite.

[Moranis]

If KG were traded, you would most likely be taking back an overpaid max salary guy signed beyond next season, plus young players and/or draft picks as compensation for taking on that salary.  Is there any overpaid max salary guy signed through 2014 that you want?  Besides Rudy Gay (who I don't want)?

I don't see Garnett or Allen being used in a trade that brings back a star.  I think you would be more likely to see a trade no better than something along the lines of Ray plus something useful to the Bucks for Carlos Delfino, Drew Gooden, and a future first round pick.

I think a number of teams would be willing to move younger "star" type players for KG.  Gay or Mayo from Memphis, Brandon Roy from Portland, I think the Hawks would potentially move Josh Smith (Marvin Williams is a no brainer though he isn't a star), Utah might move Al Jefferson (how ironic would that be), Ben Gordon from Detroit, I'd call Golden State regarding Monta Ellis, and I'm sure other names will pop up.  

If you made a move at the deadline you are just going to get crap, the summer is the time to really make the move if you are going to.

There are also some sign and trade possibilities, like Greg Oden, Deandre Jordan, etc. in which KG would be the piece to send back.

[PosImpos]

The best players - Paul and Howard both belong in this category - are really only good enough to put a team in that "not good enough to contend but too good to land a great draft pick" territory.  But if you have the means to grab two stars, then you can really contend.

I disagree with this.

Dwight Howard brought his team to the NBA Finals two years ago. In terms of starters, they had a top 10 PF, a top 15 PG and a top 15 SF and good bench (elite backup C, elite backup wing). Sprinkle a little more talent on that squad and they could have won a title.

The only reason the Magic are stuttering so much now is that they have a very weak supporting cast around him after their mid-season trades.

Chris Paul's New Orleans Hornets were close to a title a few years ago. They didn't have enough but they were close. Paul had three guys who were borderline All-Stars or a notch below All-Star status really alongside him. A top ten center in Tyson Chandler, a top 15 PF in David West and the last good year out of Peja Stojakovic and Peja was only really a mediocre starting SF at that point. If Peja was able to do a little more and/or if New Orleans had more depth ... they would have won the West that year.

Both of those guys, Chris Paul and Dwight Howard, are capable of fielding a legitimate title contender and winning a title without a second superstar alongside them.

Obviously, their chances improve significantly if their respective clubs could land a true superstar to play alongside them. Top tier talent is always preferable. The more the better.

But it's not an absolute necessity ... their teams are still capable of getting the job done without second/third superstar.

The 2003 Spurs are a good case in point.  Duncan was the only truly dominant player on that Spurs team.  Robinson was much diminished, Parker and Manu were green and playing roles similar to Rondo in 2008, and Stephen Jackson was an inefficient gunner.

The Net team they faced that year was also an example of a very successful team with essentially one star.  They didn't need another superstar to get over the hump, just a slightly less offensively incompetent supporting cast (Jason Collins saw way too many minutes for them).

Indeed those Nets teams would be my model for rebuilding a contending team around Rondo and the aging big 3 going forward (unless of course the CP3 in trade + Howard in free agency rebuild plan is anything other than a Celtic fan-tasy). Tough, energetic defensive players who can rebound, play with speed or strength and finish on the move.  Anderson Varejao, Jonas Jerebko, George Hill, Landry Fields, Delonte West, Jared Dudley, Marcin Gortat, Chuck Hayes...  Match a group of players like that with Rondo (and maybe an old Pierce for a few seasons) and toss in a designated volume scorer or two (like a Jamal Crawford, Ben Gordon, Lou Williams, Marcus Thornton, Michael Beasley) to try and produce some points out of the occasional iso set...

I think that could be an excellent team that could be forged from lower-level free agent signings, trades and the draft.

That sounds nice, but as we saw with the Nets that's not an effective long term strategy for success.  It got them a couple Finals berths when the East was relatively weak compared to the West.

I just really question the wisdom of building a team around a seriously limited offensive player.  A franchise player has to be special for his position on both ends of the court, and really special on at least one end.

[PosImpos]

Ray Allen is the difficult part of getting a rebuilding effort going.  He is technically not signed for next season, as he has a player option, plus he has a trade kicker.  If you can't trade him, you might be better off finding a way to discourage him from coming back so you can throw Avery Bradley to the wolves as the starting SG and either see him develop or see the team tank because of him.

If rebuilding begins this summer, I think it means getting rid of all the veteran bench players and replacing them with young projects with upside.  Instead of trying to bring back guys like Delonte West or Von Wafer, you bring in failed lottery picks like Joe Alexander, raw athletic players like Chris Johnson, and undrafted free agents like Wesley Matthews or Jeremy Lin. You gamble and hope that you get a few surprises that stick.

If you are trading guys like Ray Allen and KG, you dump them mid-season to teams that are looking for a veteran hand, not during the summer when teams are most optimistic about the players they already have under contract.  Jermaine O'Neal would probably be a better trade asset if he is healthy because he would be easier to match a salary to. 

If KG were traded, you would most likely be taking back an overpaid max salary guy signed beyond next season, plus young players and/or draft picks as compensation for taking on that salary.  Is there any overpaid max salary guy signed through 2014 that you want?  Besides Rudy Gay (who I don't want)?

I don't see Garnett or Allen being used in a trade that brings back a star.  I think you would be more likely to see a trade no better than something along the lines of Ray plus something useful to the Bucks for Carlos Delfino, Drew Gooden, and a future first round pick.

No, we probably wouldn't get a star in return for Ray Allen or KG.  But if we can get the rights to a young role player with starter potential that could be a good trading piece or a supporting piece of the puzzle sometime in the future, along with mid to late first round draft picks or good second round draft picks, that's the sort of thing you have to seriously consider.

Part of the strategy of rebuilding, unfortunately, has to involve making trades that make the team worse in the short term but give the team a chance to become better in the long term, either through developing youth, drafting, or making future trades.

[2short]

forgive me for not reading all the posts
kg is going to retire, if he cannot play at the level which he is accustomed to he's not going to be happy
PP is staying, would be great to see him slowly move into the 6th man role ala san antonio, unless paul wants a trade to clippers ala bourque i want him to retire in green!
ray is going to continue playing and has been better than most nba sg's this season but he could garner something in trade as well

the oneill boys are both signed through next year? shaq who knows might retire but I think he will play til he can't earn, a healthy jermaine is a better all around center than shaq,kristic and perk

wafer & west I'd work at resigning
davis sign and trade or let him walk
bradley we have for good or bad, if he can turn into a sg? what a defensive backcourt!
rondo of course we have
green resigned is a good 2 posistion player
krstic backup center

danny has us set up for going after dwight howard, imo he is ready to leave orlando that team has fizzled, both smith and van gundy don't appear to be up to the task, van gundy being the better of 2

rambling haven't been on in awhile, durned work thing!

[jaybahs]

Tough call this Summer ... I currently cannot think of any SG i'd rather have than ray allen ... young or old ... besides Wade or Kobe ... (especially in clutch situations) ... Literally nobody.