Simmons echoes my thoughts.....Wyc & Steve this is for you.

[nickagneta]

Arnold Auerbach was always of the opinion that the fans came to watch a basketball game and that when the fans were in the arena it was the job of the Celtics to entertain the fans with excellent championship basketball. Hence his stance aginst Dancers, music and other frivolities during timeouts.

The game was the show, the show did not have a game in it.

And that philosophy was okay by me.

I was, and I am sure many others here were, at or watched those playoff games of the 70's and 80's. On television you could always tell it was tell the game was at the Garden because of the parquet and because when the Celtics went into a timeout with momentum the crowd would go nuts. When the network came back from commercial 3-4 minutes later, the crowd was still going nuts. It just never stopped. Part of that was because of the tradition of such behavior over the years.

But all that was lost with a 20 year+ drought of quality playoff basketball. Seats needed to be filled in lean years. As with every other venue, other entertainment had to keep the interest of the crowd.

But with quality basketball back in town, maybe it's time to return to the tradition, especially during the playoffs. Make the game the show again. Nix the idiots dancing on the scoreboard and show highlights of the Celtics from earlier in the game or earlier games. Use Lucky more get rid of the dancers. Use the scoreboard wisely to keep the energy pumped and not the crowd loud. These are two completely different things.

And do it all in the name of Red who's name the court the Celtics play on is named after. Red would never have wanted cheerleaders or dancers on his court and the court is still his. Respect his legacy. Respect the tradition.

While I have already stated that I personally hate also the extra crap at the games, I think you need to accept that things change. Hell, Red would have people still smoking in the building. I doubt Red would be thilled that people have to pay to watch the games on TV. This is a younger MTV/Sportscenter driven socity we live in. Saying to respect Red's tradition is a bit like respecting your grandpa. Sure you do but your not throwing out your computer. Things don't go back to the way there were. We must accept change and move on.

Just because things change doesn't mean they always change for the best.

Yeah, I respect my grandpa. But that doesn't mean I have to throw out the painting he gave me that was so dear to him to replace it with some more recent art or other wall decorations. In every way possible that painting he did is better than what a younger more hip crowd could ever find to put up on a wall.

And just because you accept change doesn't mean you have to like it. In many ways the reason for the extra entertainment is caused by a dumbing down of everything in our society not because society has become that much more advanced. The attention spans of the MTV/Sportscenter generation is so small as to be almost non existant. They just can't appreciate a basketball game as being a basketball game. They need an entertainment event.

It's no wonder so many of today's NBA players can dunk with both hands in multiple ways with various twists and turns but have trouble shooting free throws at anything above 70%. (Just a side observation, sorry, please don't expand on this).

[celts55]

Arnold Auerbach was always of the opinion that the fans came to watch a basketball game and that when the fans were in the arena it was the job of the Celtics to entertain the fans with excellent championship basketball. Hence his stance aginst Dancers, music and other frivolities during timeouts.

The game was the show, the show did not have a game in it.

And that philosophy was okay by me.

I was, and I am sure many others here were, at or watched those playoff games of the 70's and 80's. On television you could always tell it was tell the game was at the Garden because of the parquet and because when the Celtics went into a timeout with momentum the crowd would go nuts. When the network came back from commercial 3-4 minutes later, the crowd was still going nuts. It just never stopped. Part of that was because of the tradition of such behavior over the years.

But all that was lost with a 20 year+ drought of quality playoff basketball. Seats needed to be filled in lean years. As with every other venue, other entertainment had to keep the interest of the crowd.

But with quality basketball back in town, maybe it's time to return to the tradition, especially during the playoffs. Make the game the show again. Nix the idiots dancing on the scoreboard and show highlights of the Celtics from earlier in the game or earlier games. Use Lucky more get rid of the dancers. Use the scoreboard wisely to keep the energy pumped and not the crowd loud. These are two completely different things.

And do it all in the name of Red who's name the court the Celtics play on is named after. Red would never have wanted cheerleaders or dancers on his court and the court is still his. Respect his legacy. Respect the tradition.

While I have already stated that I personally hate also the extra crap at the games, I think you need to accept that things change. Hell, Red would have people still smoking in the building. I doubt Red would be thilled that people have to pay to watch the games on TV. This is a younger MTV/Sportscenter driven socity we live in. Saying to respect Red's tradition is a bit like respecting your grandpa. Sure you do but your not throwing out your computer. Things don't go back to the way there were. We must accept change and move on.

Just because things change doesn't mean they always change for the best.

Yeah, I respect my grandpa. But that doesn't mean I have to throw out the painting he gave me that was so dear to him to replace it with some more recent art or other wall decorations. In every way possible that painting he did is better than what a younger more hip crowd could ever find to put up on a wall.

And just because you accept change doesn't mean you have to like it. In many ways the reason for the extra entertainment is caused by a dumbing down of everything in our society not because society has become that much more advanced. The attention spans of the MTV/Sportscenter generation is so small as to be almost non existant. They just can't appreciate a basketball game as being a basketball game. They need an entertainment event.

It's no wonder so many of today's NBA players can dunk with both hands in multiple ways with various twists and turns but have trouble shooting free throws at anything above 70%. (Just a side observation, sorry, please don't expand on this).

I didn't say I like it. I said I have learned to accept it. As with your grandfather picture, It's not throwing it out, its might just be having a computer near it. It doesn't have to ruin the picture or in this case the game. All I'm trying to say is that things don't go back to the way they were. No matter how much we might think they were better. As you stated, the game also has changed, yet you still watch and hopefully enjoy it. Again. not saying I like it, but it is what it is.

[nickagneta]

Arnold Auerbach was always of the opinion that the fans came to watch a basketball game and that when the fans were in the arena it was the job of the Celtics to entertain the fans with excellent championship basketball. Hence his stance aginst Dancers, music and other frivolities during timeouts.

The game was the show, the show did not have a game in it.

And that philosophy was okay by me.

I was, and I am sure many others here were, at or watched those playoff games of the 70's and 80's. On television you could always tell it was tell the game was at the Garden because of the parquet and because when the Celtics went into a timeout with momentum the crowd would go nuts. When the network came back from commercial 3-4 minutes later, the crowd was still going nuts. It just never stopped. Part of that was because of the tradition of such behavior over the years.

But all that was lost with a 20 year+ drought of quality playoff basketball. Seats needed to be filled in lean years. As with every other venue, other entertainment had to keep the interest of the crowd.

But with quality basketball back in town, maybe it's time to return to the tradition, especially during the playoffs. Make the game the show again. Nix the idiots dancing on the scoreboard and show highlights of the Celtics from earlier in the game or earlier games. Use Lucky more get rid of the dancers. Use the scoreboard wisely to keep the energy pumped and not the crowd loud. These are two completely different things.

And do it all in the name of Red who's name the court the Celtics play on is named after. Red would never have wanted cheerleaders or dancers on his court and the court is still his. Respect his legacy. Respect the tradition.

While I have already stated that I personally hate also the extra crap at the games, I think you need to accept that things change. Hell, Red would have people still smoking in the building. I doubt Red would be thilled that people have to pay to watch the games on TV. This is a younger MTV/Sportscenter driven socity we live in. Saying to respect Red's tradition is a bit like respecting your grandpa. Sure you do but your not throwing out your computer. Things don't go back to the way there were. We must accept change and move on.

Just because things change doesn't mean they always change for the best.

Yeah, I respect my grandpa. But that doesn't mean I have to throw out the painting he gave me that was so dear to him to replace it with some more recent art or other wall decorations. In every way possible that painting he did is better than what a younger more hip crowd could ever find to put up on a wall.

And just because you accept change doesn't mean you have to like it. In many ways the reason for the extra entertainment is caused by a dumbing down of everything in our society not because society has become that much more advanced. The attention spans of the MTV/Sportscenter generation is so small as to be almost non existant. They just can't appreciate a basketball game as being a basketball game. They need an entertainment event.

It's no wonder so many of today's NBA players can dunk with both hands in multiple ways with various twists and turns but have trouble shooting free throws at anything above 70%. (Just a side observation, sorry, please don't expand on this).

I didn't say I like it. I said I have learned to accept it. As with your grandfather picture, It's not throwing it out, its might just be having a computer near it. It doesn't have to ruin the picture or in this case the game. All I'm trying to say is that things don't go back to the way they were. No matter how much we might think they were better. As you stated, the game also has changed, yet you still watch and hopefully enjoy it. Again. not saying I like it, but it is what it is.

That's cool. My bad for the misinterpretation and snippiness. TP for the explanation.

[greg_kite]

Was Simmons necessarily saying he didn't like it?  I'm not so sure.

What is really wrong with the dancers?  Do they interrupt the game?  I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'm never going to complain about a beautiful girl at a game, especially if I'm actually SUPPOSED to look at her. 

When I go to a Sox game I would say I spend 95% of the time looking at the girls, depending on the amount of alcohol consumption.  At least with the Celtic dancers you can look at them without your wife getting as mad at you.  And if you have a wife that doesn't care much about the actual game, she's probably going to be more entertained by the dancers than the game.

I met two of the dancers at the Randolph movie theater and they were even better looking in person.  While some of you may have a point that they are scantily clad  I don't see why you should complain about it.  Times change.  It's still more coverage than you see at most beaches.  And the dancing is no more suggestive than you'll see on most channels.

[Setshot33]

 
 

Red wouldn't even be able to legally enjoy a cigar any more.  How'd you like to be the security guy to tell Red smoking's not allowed?

I could hear Red now:

"It's my building, so I can smoke if I want to."

And the thing is, he would.   

[SShoreFan]

TP to Nick for his post.

It's a Wonderful Life :  Black and white or colorized?

Which one do they show every year at Christmas? 
Right the Black and white version, despite the fact that the colorized version is more modern, more progressive and more current, but colorized it's just another old movie.

Ball parks:  Fenway or Camden Yards?
Which is a destination point year after year?
Right Fenway, despite the fact that Camden is more modernized and stylish, after a few years its lost its luster and is now Just another ball park.

The Celtics don't need to be Just another ball club.  It's not pompus or arrogant not to embrace all change, sometimes its incredibly stylish and makes a great statement. 

I would love the Celtics to make a such a statement.

[guava_wrench]

It's no wonder so many of today's NBA players can dunk with both hands in multiple ways with various twists and turns but have trouble shooting free throws at anything above 70%. (Just a side observation, sorry, please don't expand on this).

Sorry, but I will expand.

Are you saying that there is a decline in ability to shoot free throws? What do you base that on? This sounds like the same kind of reactionary mindset that the anti-dancer crowd has.

Do you have stats to back up this assertion? Here are some links:

http://www.baseballcrank.com/archives2/2004/08/basketball_shoo.php
http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/02/has-nba-free-throw-shooting-accuracy.html

While the 80s show the peak of FT%, this decade is not far off. There are other factors to study to really understand this. In particular, who is taking FTs? Are the good shooters getting to the line at the same rate as the good shooters of the past, and what % of FTA are by the bad shooters today and the bad shooters back in the day? What is the effect of the 3pt line and the best shooters often never penetrating? How many bad FT shooting centers skew the numbers?

Romanticizing about the good old days seems to me to often be out of touch with reality. People act as if Shaq's inability to shoot FTs is a new development for centers. Wilt shot .511 for his career! Shaq is .524.

I have no idea where the idea of the decline of shooting ability came from. Offensive and defensive are what has changed drastically, not players' abilities to shoot.

[Bahku]

Yup ... I agree, guys ... absolutely!

[nickagneta]

Arnold Auerbach was always of the opinion that the fans came to watch a basketball game and that when the fans were in the arena it was the job of the Celtics to entertain the fans with excellent championship basketball. Hence his stance aginst Dancers, music and other frivolities during timeouts.

The game was the show, the show did not have a game in it.

And that philosophy was okay by me.

I was, and I am sure many others here were, at or watched those playoff games of the 70's and 80's. On television you could always tell it was tell the game was at the Garden because of the parquet and because when the Celtics went into a timeout with momentum the crowd would go nuts. When the network came back from commercial 3-4 minutes later, the crowd was still going nuts. It just never stopped. Part of that was because of the tradition of such behavior over the years.

But all that was lost with a 20 year+ drought of quality playoff basketball. Seats needed to be filled in lean years. As with every other venue, other entertainment had to keep the interest of the crowd.

But with quality basketball back in town, maybe it's time to return to the tradition, especially during the playoffs. Make the game the show again. Nix the idiots dancing on the scoreboard and show highlights of the Celtics from earlier in the game or earlier games. Use Lucky more get rid of the dancers. Use the scoreboard wisely to keep the energy pumped and not the crowd loud. These are two completely different things.

And do it all in the name of Red who's name the court the Celtics play on is named after. Red would never have wanted cheerleaders or dancers on his court and the court is still his. Respect his legacy. Respect the tradition.

While I have already stated that I personally hate also the extra crap at the games, I think you need to accept that things change. Hell, Red would have people still smoking in the building. I doubt Red would be thilled that people have to pay to watch the games on TV. This is a younger MTV/Sportscenter driven socity we live in. Saying to respect Red's tradition is a bit like respecting your grandpa. Sure you do but your not throwing out your computer. Things don't go back to the way there were. We must accept change and move on.

Just because things change doesn't mean they always change for the best.

Yeah, I respect my grandpa. But that doesn't mean I have to throw out the painting he gave me that was so dear to him to replace it with some more recent art or other wall decorations. In every way possible that painting he did is better than what a younger more hip crowd could ever find to put up on a wall.

And just because you accept change doesn't mean you have to like it. In many ways the reason for the extra entertainment is caused by a dumbing down of everything in our society not because society has become that much more advanced. The attention spans of the MTV/Sportscenter generation is so small as to be almost non existant. They just can't appreciate a basketball game as being a basketball game. They need an entertainment event.

It's no wonder so many of today's NBA players can dunk with both hands in multiple ways with various twists and turns but have trouble shooting free throws at anything above 70%. (Just a side observation, sorry, please don't expand on this).

[Roy Hobbs]

I personally can't think of many things I'd rather look at during "down" times at games, than a group of attractive, talented, dedicated young women, cheering for the success of my beloved Boston Celtics, and doing it with style and class ...

Therein lies the rub.  Many of us don't think the dancers' routines are even remotely classy.  I'm not necessarily opposed to dancers / cheerleaders under any and all circumstances.  I just don't like them gyrating like strippers and simulating intercourse on the parquet.

[CoachBo]

I personally can't think of many things I'd rather look at during "down" times at games, than a group of attractive, talented, dedicated young women, cheering for the success of my beloved Boston Celtics, and doing it with style and class ...

Therein lies the rub.  Many of us don't think the dancers' routines are even remotely classy.  I'm not necessarily opposed to dancers / cheerleaders under any and all circumstances.  I just don't like them gyrating like strippers and simulating intercourse on the parquet.

Classy?

 

Uh, that's the LAST word I'd use to describe those routines.

[Bahku]

Guess I haven't seen all the routines ... I'll have to watch more closely, but I've yet to see any simulated sex, or anything close to it. It's intrigueing that offensive, crass TV shows like South Park, and music like JayZ and Eminem are so popular, but the Celtics Dancers are over-the-line. Guess they save the real rude stuff for the ticket-holders, because what's shown on television is no more offensive or sexual than "Dancing With The Stars." Someone needs to alert Comcast that such stuff is being shown on their network, I think they'd probably like to know. Sorry, but I don't see them doing anything untoward, or anything different than any other public dance group or professional cheerleaders.

If it's that bad, we'd better get on the Patriots Cheerleaders, the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, and on and on and on. These girls are talented dancers, and work hard to do the best job they can, it's a shame that they're being raked over the coals here, and judged by a higher standard than everyone else, just because some feel they have no place with the Celtics. I also hope they don't read blogs on a regular basis. (I'm sure there's plenty of things to pick apart in this post already, so I'll stop here. Nothing positive for these girls ... and it's a shame).

[Roy Hobbs]

Guess I haven't seen all the routines ... I'll have to watch more closely, but I've yet to see any simulated sex, or anything close to it. It's intrigueing that offensive, crass TV shows like South Park, and music like JayZ and Eminem are so popular, but the Celtics Dancers are over-the-line. Guess they save the real rude stuff for the ticket-holders, because what's shown on television is no more offensive or sexual than "Dancing With The Stars." Someone needs to alert Comcast that such stuff is being shown on their network, I think they'd probably like to know. Sorry, but I don't see them doing anything untoward, or anything different than any other public dance group or professional cheerleaders.

The dancers get down on their knees, with their legs spread, and simulate gyrating, thrusting, or "humping" motions; I can't really go into too much more detail without violating the rules of the blog.  To me, that's sexual.  Not all of their routines are over the top, but many of them are, and they're certainly more explicit than anything you'd see on Dancing with the Stars (unless I have a giant misunderstanding about the type of dance that is featured on that program; I've never really watched.)

What it comes down to for me is, I think the Garden should be as "family friendly" as possible.  It should be a place people can take their children to, and that means limiting exposure to blatantly sexual dance routines.  I also don't like patrons of the Garden using f-bombs within earshot of children; kids should be protected from such things, even if many of them are being exposed to such things in other places. 

I find discussions of Jay-Z, eminem, and South Park irrelevant, because I wouldn't expose my children to those things at a young age, either.  However, I know when I put in a rap cd, or when I turn on Comedy Central, that those things aren't necessarily for young eyes / ears.  I'd prefer that the Boston Garden not be put into that same category.

(There's the other issue of the dancers' talent; the team just isn't that well coordinated on their routines, even after two seasons.  I would expect that to improve over time, though.)

[SShoreFan]

Bottom line:

Without a doubt the dress and routine of the dancers offend a portion of the fans and the lewd reaction to the dancers by a portion of the fans further offers a larger portion of the fans. 

Given that the growth of the fan base is reliant on cultivating young fans, why would the Celtics marketing team put forth a product that parents find questionable to their kids? 

Why would a parent, whose entertainment dollar only goes so far, chose to bring their children to a facility where they are going to be exposed to rude comments about the suggestive routines that's happening on the floor?

In marketing the term "Sex sells" proves true in most cases.  I catch myself watching a commercial I normally wouldn't if there's a pretty girl on it - but in that case the girl is keeping my attention for the product.  In the case of the Celtics, I am missing the "Sex sells" aspect of the marketing program.  The girls are not getting the fan in the seats, they are the side show.  So if they are not the main attraction, and a portion of the paying audience is offended by the side show and the comments the show generates, why continue to have that show?  League mandated?

[reggie35]

The dancers should go. They take the crowd out of it, offend many, and have nothing to do with basketball. Give them all jobs at each of the players' charities, but get them out of the building please.

Going to games now it's no wonder that the crowd has a hard time getting into it. The spectacle (jumbotron,sound system, dancers, events) make more noise than the fans can. Some things are fine, like heroes among us, the shooting contests, but mostly the time outs are filled with distractions and are annoying.

Just like the little things KG does can totally change the way the team operates. The little things the organization does can have a positive effect too.