Hayward Talks 2018-19 Failure

[Phantom255x]

I hated that team. Just a chore to follow.

Sad part is, they managed to sweep the first round, then blow out the Bucks on the road in Game 1. Unfortunately then they lost Game 2 and Kyrie went rogue with the poor shooting, purposely defending Giannis, the media banters, etc.

Yeah, it was brutal to root for them. Boston actually won 2 titles (Sox/Patriots) and the Bruins reached the Stanley Cup Finals, but the one team that was heavily favored to reach the Finals out of the 4 literally didn't get past the second round 

[Kuberski33]

The media and fanboy type C's fans worked themselves into quite that lather about that team - with zero consideration of the fact that there's more to a basketball team than scoring.  As Hayward so correctly stated - there's only one basketball. And that team was filled with guys who needed the ball in their hands to be effective.

Hayward, coincidentaly was the one guy willing to give the ball up - and it was to his detriment - at least in terms of his reputation.

Fast forward to now - Tatum has really evolved into a complete player, Jaylen has evolved in the past year and is for the first time, looking to pass, White is the ultimate team guy and Porzingis has brought a couple of skills that haven't been seen much around here since Bird and McHale were still playing.

But back to that 18-19 team, I'm not sure who I ended up despising more, Morris or Rozier.  Shock of shocks Rozier has put up numbers at times in Charlotte and has always been on lousy teams. There's a reason and it doesn't have much to do with the talent around him. He's one of those guys you just can't win with.  He was OK here till he started really looking for his after he had that good playoff series vs the Bucks.

[SparzWizard]

The media and fanboy type C's fans worked themselves into quite that lather about that team - with zero consideration of the fact that there's more to a basketball team than scoring.  As Hayward so correctly stated - there's only one basketball. And that team was filled with guys who needed the ball in their hands to be effective.

Hayward, coincidentaly was the one guy willing to give the ball up - and it was to his detriment - at least in terms of his reputation.

Fast forward to now - Tatum has really evolved into a complete player, Jaylen has evolved in the past year and is for the first time, looking to pass, White is the ultimate team guy and Porzingis has brought a couple of skills that haven't been seen much around here since Bird and McHale were still playing.

But back to that 18-19 team, I'm not sure who I ended up despising more, Morris or Rozier.  Shock of shocks Rozier has put up numbers at times in Charlotte and has always been on lousy teams. There's a reason and it doesn't have much to do with the talent around him. He's one of those guys you just can't win with.  He was OK here till he started really looking for his after he had that good playoff series vs the Bucks.

Scary Terry really did a number on his reputation and career.

[ozgod]

Tatum has mostly corroborated Gordie’s acco Nt.

On Tuesday, Tatum mostly corroborated Hayward’s view.

“I mean, yeah, that [expletive] was terrible,” Tatum said. “You guys saw it. We’ve all talked about it. It didn’t work out how we wanted it to, and we were a very talented team but it just didn’t mesh the way we wanted it to. And that’s all right. Guys learned and everybody’s moved on from it. But what Gordon said was kind of right. Guys would come back from injury, guys were trying to prove themselves, like myself. I was trying to be better than I was last year, and it was just kind of a tough year.”

Tatum said there were no locker room issues. The players liked each other and got along. But he acknowledged that on-court chemistry was a problem.

“Everybody wanted to do more,” he said. “And we didn’t quite understand how we all could coexist with each other. And you just learn from that. No matter how talented a team is, it still has to work together and figure it out. And like Gordon said, we still made it to the second round. Like, it could have been worse.”

Hayward said on George’s podcast that he has been unsurprised by the ascensions of Tatum and Brown, who were both selected to All-NBA teams last year. He said that coach Brad Stevens, who has since taken over as president of basketball operations, told him during his free agent visit in 2017 that he envisioned Brown and Tatum taking the reins in three or four years.

So far this season, of course, the Celtics have developed an uncommon connection. Boston entered Tuesday night’s game against the Thunder with a 26-6 record, the best in the NBA. Tatum said some lessons learned in 2019 have helped along the way.

“I just understand what we’re trying to accomplish,” he said, “and learned how to coexist with other really good players.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01/02/sports/that-expletive-was-terrible-jayson-tatum-corroborates-gordon-haywards-claim-winning-was-not-celtics-primary-focus-2019/

Just because you put a team of champions together is no guarantee they will become a champion team. What makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts is the willingness to buy into a common vision and to work together and sacrifice towards it.

[Roy H.]

Tatum has mostly corroborated Gordie’s acco Nt.

On Tuesday, Tatum mostly corroborated Hayward’s view.

“I mean, yeah, that [expletive] was terrible,” Tatum said. “You guys saw it. We’ve all talked about it. It didn’t work out how we wanted it to, and we were a very talented team but it just didn’t mesh the way we wanted it to. And that’s all right. Guys learned and everybody’s moved on from it. But what Gordon said was kind of right. Guys would come back from injury, guys were trying to prove themselves, like myself. I was trying to be better than I was last year, and it was just kind of a tough year.”

Tatum said there were no locker room issues. The players liked each other and got along. But he acknowledged that on-court chemistry was a problem.

“Everybody wanted to do more,” he said. “And we didn’t quite understand how we all could coexist with each other. And you just learn from that. No matter how talented a team is, it still has to work together and figure it out. And like Gordon said, we still made it to the second round. Like, it could have been worse.”

Hayward said on George’s podcast that he has been unsurprised by the ascensions of Tatum and Brown, who were both selected to All-NBA teams last year. He said that coach Brad Stevens, who has since taken over as president of basketball operations, told him during his free agent visit in 2017 that he envisioned Brown and Tatum taking the reins in three or four years.

So far this season, of course, the Celtics have developed an uncommon connection. Boston entered Tuesday night’s game against the Thunder with a 26-6 record, the best in the NBA. Tatum said some lessons learned in 2019 have helped along the way.

“I just understand what we’re trying to accomplish,” he said, “and learned how to coexist with other really good players.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01/02/sports/that-expletive-was-terrible-jayson-tatum-corroborates-gordon-haywards-claim-winning-was-not-celtics-primary-focus-2019/

Just because you put a team of champions together is no guarantee they will become a champion team. What makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts is the willingness to buy into a common vision and to work together and sacrifice towards it.

[ozgod]

Tatum has mostly corroborated Gordie’s acco Nt.

On Tuesday, Tatum mostly corroborated Hayward’s view.

“I mean, yeah, that [expletive] was terrible,” Tatum said. “You guys saw it. We’ve all talked about it. It didn’t work out how we wanted it to, and we were a very talented team but it just didn’t mesh the way we wanted it to. And that’s all right. Guys learned and everybody’s moved on from it. But what Gordon said was kind of right. Guys would come back from injury, guys were trying to prove themselves, like myself. I was trying to be better than I was last year, and it was just kind of a tough year.”

Tatum said there were no locker room issues. The players liked each other and got along. But he acknowledged that on-court chemistry was a problem.

“Everybody wanted to do more,” he said. “And we didn’t quite understand how we all could coexist with each other. And you just learn from that. No matter how talented a team is, it still has to work together and figure it out. And like Gordon said, we still made it to the second round. Like, it could have been worse.”

Hayward said on George’s podcast that he has been unsurprised by the ascensions of Tatum and Brown, who were both selected to All-NBA teams last year. He said that coach Brad Stevens, who has since taken over as president of basketball operations, told him during his free agent visit in 2017 that he envisioned Brown and Tatum taking the reins in three or four years.

So far this season, of course, the Celtics have developed an uncommon connection. Boston entered Tuesday night’s game against the Thunder with a 26-6 record, the best in the NBA. Tatum said some lessons learned in 2019 have helped along the way.

“I just understand what we’re trying to accomplish,” he said, “and learned how to coexist with other really good players.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01/02/sports/that-expletive-was-terrible-jayson-tatum-corroborates-gordon-haywards-claim-winning-was-not-celtics-primary-focus-2019/

Just because you put a team of champions together is no guarantee they will become a champion team. What makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts is the willingness to buy into a common vision and to work together and sacrifice towards it.

Yup and all those guys sacrificed…Ray went from 26ppg to 18 ppg. Those are the types of individual sacrifices our team needs to undergo for the good of the team. So far they all seem willing.

[Kernewek]

It's a weird thing to see lost to the sands of time (or phased into myth, take your pick), but the whole Ubuntu thing - with a brand new squad collectively getting together, everyone doing what was best for the team, and winning it all - was both a massive win for Doc and the coaching staff and also incredibly rare.

Super teams going all the way in year one largely doesn't happen in sports - otherwise it would be a lot more common. Miami, famously, couldn't do it, even with (arguably) more talented players.

Even when teams already have the pieces, they're likely to constrain them from their full potential in ways that are only obvious in hindsight - look at Golden State needlessly shackling their players with Mark Jackson. Championship chemistry is as straightforward as alchemy.

[bdm860]

Tatum has mostly corroborated Gordie’s acco Nt.

On Tuesday, Tatum mostly corroborated Hayward’s view.

“I mean, yeah, that [expletive] was terrible,” Tatum said. “You guys saw it. We’ve all talked about it. It didn’t work out how we wanted it to, and we were a very talented team but it just didn’t mesh the way we wanted it to. And that’s all right. Guys learned and everybody’s moved on from it. But what Gordon said was kind of right. Guys would come back from injury, guys were trying to prove themselves, like myself. I was trying to be better than I was last year, and it was just kind of a tough year.”

Tatum said there were no locker room issues. The players liked each other and got along. But he acknowledged that on-court chemistry was a problem.

“Everybody wanted to do more,” he said. “And we didn’t quite understand how we all could coexist with each other. And you just learn from that. No matter how talented a team is, it still has to work together and figure it out. And like Gordon said, we still made it to the second round. Like, it could have been worse.”

Hayward said on George’s podcast that he has been unsurprised by the ascensions of Tatum and Brown, who were both selected to All-NBA teams last year. He said that coach Brad Stevens, who has since taken over as president of basketball operations, told him during his free agent visit in 2017 that he envisioned Brown and Tatum taking the reins in three or four years.

So far this season, of course, the Celtics have developed an uncommon connection. Boston entered Tuesday night’s game against the Thunder with a 26-6 record, the best in the NBA. Tatum said some lessons learned in 2019 have helped along the way.

“I just understand what we’re trying to accomplish,” he said, “and learned how to coexist with other really good players.”

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2024/01/02/sports/that-expletive-was-terrible-jayson-tatum-corroborates-gordon-haywards-claim-winning-was-not-celtics-primary-focus-2019/

Just because you put a team of champions together is no guarantee they will become a champion team. What makes the whole greater than the sum of the parts is the willingness to buy into a common vision and to work together and sacrifice towards it.

Yup and all those guys sacrificed…Ray went from 26ppg to 18 ppg. Those are the types of individual sacrifices our team needs to undergo for the good of the team. So far they all seem willing.

I find the chemistry aspect of team building fascinating. 

Does that 2008 team work with Garnett, Pierce, and Allen in their mid-20s instead of their early 30s?  Would they be willing to sacrifice if they each hadn't faced individual failures on their own in their primes?

Does it work better or worse if Rondo/Perk (and to a lesser extent Powe/Big Baby) were in their mid-to-late 20s vs early 20s?  If they were pending free agents, or constantly in a rumored blockbuster, does that impact things?  (In 2008, Perk was in Year 1 of a 4 year deal, Rondo was in Year 2 of his 4 year rookie deal).

Eventually Ray Allen and Rondo started to butt heads, Ray was unhappy with his decreasing role, and there were trade rumors about both starting as early as the 2009 off season that continued until their eventual departures.  James Posey left for more money.  Tony Allen eventually left for more security (Memphis offered same money but more years).  Later additions like Sheed (out of shape) and Jermaine O'Neal (butted heads with Doc) didn't seem to really buy into it.

A little more Ubuntu in 2010, maybe the C's don't drop from 62 wins to 50, and have home court against the Lakers in the Finals.  Does the team win #18 then?

Ubuntu worked in '08, I think due partly to the right circumstances, but I also think it might have been shorter lived than we all realize (but maybe it was just injuries/age).

[Kuberski33]

It's funny, when I think about that championship team, the one thing I've kind of forgotten about is this. And it was the key to that team succeeding while the 18-19 team failed so badly. Everything came together with that group - and they probably should have won at least one more title than they did, but they ran into some rotten luck with KG's injury and some officiating during one 4th quarter in LA. Some may think they over-celebrate that one title but they were the best team in the NBA for about 3 seasons.

[celts10]

As infuriating and disappointing that 18-19 team was, I forgot that we started the postseason 5-0.

[86MaxwellSmart]

All good, but The C's have got to stop wasting seasons....Too many great young players looking to take over now.

[tenn_smoothie]

It's funny, when I think about that championship team, the one thing I've kind of forgotten about is this. And it was the key to that team succeeding while the 18-19 team failed so badly. Everything came together with that group - and they probably should have won at least one more title than they did, but they ran into some rotten luck with KG's injury and some officiating during one 4th quarter in LA. Some may think they over-celebrate that one title but they were the best team in the NBA for about 3 seasons.

Beautiful. Well said.

Man, I loved watching that '08 team play defense. Hyper-pressure on the ball side and the weak side guys on a string in perfect harmony.
If an opponent, God help them, ever got past the perimeter pressure, they then had to deal with Perk and Garnett inside.

To this day, I have never watched the 4th quarter of game 7 from 2010. My tolerance for big game pressure has decreased over the years. I watched through the end of the 3d quarter and finally switched to a movie or something and followed the score on gamecast. That team absolutely deserved 2 - 3 titles.  Danny should never have let go of Posey and Perk. So rare in pro sports, the '08 group has reportedly stayed close all these years later (aside from Ray Allen, that is).

[Kernewek]

As infuriating and disappointing that 18-19 team was, I forgot that we started the postseason 5-0.

To be fair, that first series was against a very forgettable Indiana squad that featured Thad Young and Bojan Bogdanović as key pieces. No disrespect to either of them, but it should have been the sweep that it was.

[cman88]

the hayward/kyrie era will always be a big what if to me. had hayward not gotten injured we clearly had the most talented team in the east. and matched up well with the warriors.

I really thought we would go to the finals that year. then hayward broke his ankle 5 minutes in and Kyrie got injured.

still took the cavs to 7 games.

the next year, Kyrie had one foot out the door and no one really wanted to sacrifice. hayward wasn't the all-star anymore. but I still thought they had enough talent to win. just never could play together.

 complete opposite of this years team where everyone is willing to sacrifice their stats for the greater picture.

[ozgod]

the hayward/kyrie era will always be a big what if to me. had hayward not gotten injured we clearly had the most talented team in the east. and matched up well with the warriors.

I really thought we would go to the finals that year. then hayward broke his ankle 5 minutes in and Kyrie got injured.

still took the cavs to 7 games.

the next year, Kyrie had one foot out the door and no one really wanted to sacrifice. hayward wasn't the all-star anymore. but I still thought they had enough talent to win. just never could play together.

 complete opposite of this years team where everyone is willing to sacrifice their stats for the greater picture.

Yes and nobnody knew their role, or they wanted to do more than their role. We all talked about it when it was happening - this team has no hierarchy, no pecking order, no leader to lay the law down. Cryrie was supposed to be that but they didn't listen to him because he sucked as a leader and threw them under the bus during losses. Gordie was just trying to justify why he deserved minutes at all and to shake off the "teachers pet" accusations, then the kids that took us to the ECF and within one game of beating Cleveland in it (JT, JB, Terry) all thought they knew what it took to win and didn't need to be told about habits and sacrifice and such. Then you had Mook and Smartacus trying to justify that they were starters and deserved pay raises. No wonder Al bailed after it, esp. since it was looking like he was going to get a pay cut anyway.

Perfect example of a team where the whole was less than the sum of the parts, because they weren't pulling together in the same direction. And as Roy mentioned earlier I think Brad really learned from that. He's not going to add some dude that might be talented if the mental fit isn't right.