Author Topic: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17  (Read 43087 times)

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Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #510 on: November 06, 2017, 11:42:02 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Where are all those loud Kyrie doubters now?

Seriously.

They're going to insist that they are right until he wins the Celtics a championship.  Stubborn.

I think they’re going to insist that Kyrie has yet to show he’s as good as IT, let alone better. Then throw in the BRK pick, Crowder, Zizic.

IT had 31 games of 30+ points last season. Kyrie has one.  He’s an exciting player, and a very good one, but that doesn’t mean we got good value.

Roy, you're clearly just being stubborn based on preconceived notions. Kyrie isn't being asked to score as much on this as Isaiah was last year. That said, two of the very things you questioned and harped on, defense and passing, Irving has shown to be way better than Thomas was. Agree?

Nope.

You really don't think irvings defense this year has been better than IT's was all of last year (and the year before that)?

There were two parts of that clause. Defense was only one of them.

IT had a better assist rate and led a much more efficient offense than Kyrie has to date. The “better passer” argument isn’t supported by data.

Are you really arguing this?

IT had an ast% of 32.5 compared to Kyrie's 31.7, a whopping .8 difference. Furthermore, IT did it on a usage % of 34.0 to Kyrie's 28.9, a significant difference of over 5%. When considering respective usages, Kyrie clearly has a better assist rate than IT, making your argument unsound. IT also wasn't playing with a brand new team returning only four players that relies heavily on rookies and young players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2018&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id2_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y2=2017&player_id2=thomais02&idx=players

Stop being so stubborn with this trade, man. Kyrie has been phenomenal, and we're clearly in the lead with this trade, especially with IT not even planning on stepping onto the floor until 2018. Maybe the Brooklyn pick lands and ends up swinging it toward Cleveland, but from a player standpoint it's not even close.

I don't understand why people romanticize IT's tenure here so much. We were largely scrappy overachievers, but once we get an actual skilled team that is killing the league, all people want to do is romanticize the past. It's amazing.

IT has a better assist rate.

IT had about 4x as many “secondary assists” as Kyrie, and a significantly higher rate of “potential assists”, as well.

The Celtics scored about 11 more points per 100 possessions with IT as opposed to Kyrie playing. The Celts have dipped from 2nd to 7th in assist rate.

The difference in usage rate is due primarily due to shots taken.

I think you may be the one “romanticizing” here, with a healthy dose of recentcy  bias. The team’s passing has been worse and the offense has been worse. There has been a huge improvement on defense, though. Kyrie is part of that, and should get credit. That doesn’t mean he’s been better than IT in other areas, though.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #511 on: November 06, 2017, 11:47:48 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

A long way?

He has made it to the finals 3 times and has won a ring

A long way.  A heck of a lot of other players would have, too.  And IT carried us farther than the vast majority ever imagined.


A heck of a lot of other players would have hit game winning 3 in Curry’s face in game 7 of the finals . Ok gotcha sir. And IT won 2 playoff series, that’s it , not like he was a 10 time all star or even a 4 time all star.

Clearly, it should take a long time and a lot of proven success for a 25 year old 4 time allstar, allstar game MVP, FIBA MVP, Olympic gold medal winner, #1 overall NBA draft pick, 3 time NBA finalist, and one time NBA champion who made the game 7 winning shot to prove himself over the 28 year old 1 time all star, 2nd round draft pick who was coming off the bench for a crappy team just a few years ago.  He has everything to prove as opposed to the latter player.  This is rational.

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #512 on: November 06, 2017, 11:49:08 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

Where you saying the same thing after IT's first season here, when people said it was only one season, he is just a sixth Man?

I was. I doubted him all the way, until the first quarter of last year. I was wrong. I am not going to spend this season waiting to believe my eyes with Kyrie.

Not at all.  Loved IT from the jump and wanted to see him start ASAP.  I can't remember exact comments, but I'm sure my posts will definitely reflect that. 

Ogaju: I love me some Tatum.

So you loved IT from the jump, yet Kyrie is playing much better ball than IT did (even to start his first full season), yet you doubt Kyrie?

I get the whole "well we lost the trade angle" (even if I think getting the best player is winning the trade in the NBA, and disagree), but I seriously don't get people arguing IT is a better player.

He isn't.

Not one GM in this league would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.

Yet some here seem to think that is in question.

It isn't.

Kyrie is simply a better player than IT, without question.

I agree that there isn't a single GM that would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.  As I GM, I wouldn't fathom it, either.  But Kyrie's not the unanimously better player yet.  Can he be? Sure.  Is he already? It's possible, but he hasn't proven it yet imo.

Kyrie is unstoppable .  He can split double teams like few can in this league

IT4 is not at the same level and can be trapped by a smart team. On the flipside the little guy is relentless

Look they are both all star calibre players.  But one guy has the extra gear over the other....

You will see realize this sooner than later.

Good for you to hold onto Rondo, IT4 memories/appreciation after they have left the team...

As a diehard Celtics fan, I hope you're right. Playing one quarter per game isn't gonna cut it, though.  And he will be exposed defensively when it actually matters, you can take that to the bank.  I think Kyrie will end up proving to be the better player, and again, I wouldn't fathom trading Kyrie for IT.  But, he has to prove himself here in Boston, without the greatest player of his generation.  That takes time. 

And thank you.  I consider them both Celtic legends in their own right.  As a fan, I think it's important to appreciate the contributions of guys like IT and Rondo.
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Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #513 on: November 06, 2017, 11:49:41 PM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

A long way?

He has made it to the finals 3 times and has won a ring

A long way.  A heck of a lot of other players would have, too.  And IT carried us farther than the vast majority ever imagined.


A heck of a lot of other players would have hit game winning 3 in Curry’s face in game 7 of the finals . Ok gotcha sir. And IT won 2 playoff series, that’s it , not like he was a 10 time all star or even a 4 time all star.

Clearly, it should take a long time and a lot of proven success for a 25 year old 4 time allstar, allstar game MVP, FIBA MVP, Olympic gold medal winner, #1 overall NBA draft pick, 3 time NBA finalist, and one time NBA champion who made the game 7 winning shot to prove himself over the 28 year old 1 time all star, 2nd round draft pick who was coming off the bench for a crappy team just a few years ago.  He has everything to prove as opposed to the latter player.  This is rational.

LeBron James.
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Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #514 on: November 06, 2017, 11:50:01 PM »

Offline CelticsElite

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Al horford 15/10/9 lol

Puts up almost triple double and no one notices

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #515 on: November 06, 2017, 11:54:14 PM »

Offline jpotter33

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Where are all those loud Kyrie doubters now?

Seriously.

They're going to insist that they are right until he wins the Celtics a championship.  Stubborn.

I think they’re going to insist that Kyrie has yet to show he’s as good as IT, let alone better. Then throw in the BRK pick, Crowder, Zizic.

IT had 31 games of 30+ points last season. Kyrie has one.  He’s an exciting player, and a very good one, but that doesn’t mean we got good value.

Roy, you're clearly just being stubborn based on preconceived notions. Kyrie isn't being asked to score as much on this as Isaiah was last year. That said, two of the very things you questioned and harped on, defense and passing, Irving has shown to be way better than Thomas was. Agree?

Nope.

You really don't think irvings defense this year has been better than IT's was all of last year (and the year before that)?

There were two parts of that clause. Defense was only one of them.

IT had a better assist rate and led a much more efficient offense than Kyrie has to date. The “better passer” argument isn’t supported by data.

Are you really arguing this?

IT had an ast% of 32.5 compared to Kyrie's 31.7, a whopping .8 difference. Furthermore, IT did it on a usage % of 34.0 to Kyrie's 28.9, a significant difference of over 5%. When considering respective usages, Kyrie clearly has a better assist rate than IT, making your argument unsound. IT also wasn't playing with a brand new team returning only four players that relies heavily on rookies and young players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2018&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id2_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y2=2017&player_id2=thomais02&idx=players

Stop being so stubborn with this trade, man. Kyrie has been phenomenal, and we're clearly in the lead with this trade, especially with IT not even planning on stepping onto the floor until 2018. Maybe the Brooklyn pick lands and ends up swinging it toward Cleveland, but from a player standpoint it's not even close.

I don't understand why people romanticize IT's tenure here so much. We were largely scrappy overachievers, but once we get an actual skilled team that is killing the league, all people want to do is romanticize the past. It's amazing.

IT has a better assist rate.

IT had about 4x as many “secondary assists” as Kyrie, and a significantly higher rate of “potential assists”, as well.

The Celtics scored about 11 more points per 100 possessions with IT as opposed to Kyrie playing. The Celts have dipped from 2nd to 7th in assist rate.

The difference in usage rate is due primarily due to shots taken.

I think you may be the one “romanticizing” here, with a healthy dose of recentcy  bias. The team’s passing has been worse and the offense has been worse. There has been a huge improvement on defense, though. Kyrie is part of that, and should get credit. That doesn’t mean he’s been better than IT in other areas, though.

Any empirical stats to back up your assists claims, or is that just pure conjecture based on the eye test? Because I can make similar claims with Kyrie and hockey assists based solely on the eye test, let alone Kyrie playing with much younger and less reliable players, leading to fewer finishes counting for assists.

And regarding the usage percentage, yeah, that's exactly the point. IT had the ball in his hands much, much more than Kyrie currently does, so the fact that he only had a marginally better assist rate than Kyrie means there's no real statistical difference between the two in this regard. And any difference would be in Kyrie's favor.

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #516 on: November 06, 2017, 11:55:07 PM »

Offline Larry for 3

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

Where you saying the same thing after IT's first season here, when people said it was only one season, he is just a sixth Man?

I was. I doubted him all the way, until the first quarter of last year. I was wrong. I am not going to spend this season waiting to believe my eyes with Kyrie.

Not at all.  Loved IT from the jump and wanted to see him start ASAP.  I can't remember exact comments, but I'm sure my posts will definitely reflect that. 

Ogaju: I love me some Tatum.

So you loved IT from the jump, yet Kyrie is playing much better ball than IT did (even to start his first full season), yet you doubt Kyrie?

I get the whole "well we lost the trade angle" (even if I think getting the best player is winning the trade in the NBA, and disagree), but I seriously don't get people arguing IT is a better player.

He isn't.

Not one GM in this league would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.

Yet some here seem to think that is in question.

It isn't.

Kyrie is simply a better player than IT, without question.

I agree that there isn't a single GM that would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.  As I GM, I wouldn't fathom it, either.  But Kyrie's not the unanimously better player yet.  Can he be? Sure.  Is he already? It's possible, but he hasn't proven it yet imo.

Kyrie is unstoppable .  He can split double teams like few can in this league

IT4 is not at the same level and can be trapped by a smart team. On the flipside the little guy is relentless

Look they are both all star calibre players.  But one guy has the extra gear over the other....

You will see realize this sooner than later.

Good for you to hold onto Rondo, IT4 memories/appreciation after they have left the team...

As a diehard Celtics fan, I hope you're right. Playing one quarter per game isn't gonna cut it, though.  And he will be exposed defensively when it actually matters, you can take that to the bank.  I think Kyrie will end up proving to be the better player, and again, I wouldn't fathom trading Kyrie for IT.  But, he has to prove himself here in Boston, without the greatest player of his generation.  That takes time. 

And thank you.  I consider them both Celtic legends in their own right.  As a fan, I think it's important to appreciate the contributions of guys like IT and Rondo.

What did IT prove in Boston again? That we can barely beat the Bulls and Wizards? That you can have 1 great season, then you are a god ? Ok , he had 1 great season, that’s reality. That’s all it was. Heck of a year but we beat the.Cavs in game 3 without him don’t forget.
"They forgot about Larry Bird"--- Danny Ainge, 1987

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Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #517 on: November 06, 2017, 11:57:41 PM »

Online Roy H.

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Quote
Any empirical stats to back up your assists claims, or is that just pure conjecture based on the eye test?

Lol. When have I ever gone by “pure conjecture”?

The stats are on NBA.com. Unlike some, I tend not to make claims based upon the “eye test”. It’s not reliable, as your above conjecture about Kyrie’s hockey assists and potential assists shows. 


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #518 on: November 06, 2017, 11:58:39 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

A long way?

He has made it to the finals 3 times and has won a ring

A long way.  A heck of a lot of other players would have, too.  And IT carried us farther than the vast majority ever imagined.


A heck of a lot of other players would have hit game winning 3 in Curry’s face in game 7 of the finals . Ok gotcha sir. And IT won 2 playoff series, that’s it , not like he was a 10 time all star or even a 4 time all star.

Clearly, it should take a long time and a lot of proven success for a 25 year old 4 time allstar, allstar game MVP, FIBA MVP, Olympic gold medal winner, #1 overall NBA draft pick, 3 time NBA finalist, and one time NBA champion who made the game 7 winning shot to prove himself over the 28 year old 1 time all star, 2nd round draft pick who was coming off the bench for a crappy team just a few years ago.  He has everything to prove as opposed to the latter player.  This is rational.

LeBron James.

Lebron James misses Kyrie an awful lot right now.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 01:09:34 AM by knuckleballer »

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #519 on: November 06, 2017, 11:59:48 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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Al horford 15/10/9 lol

Puts up almost triple double and no one notices

I think a lot of us have noticed his great play so far this season.  He's been awesome.

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #520 on: November 07, 2017, 12:04:15 AM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

Where you saying the same thing after IT's first season here, when people said it was only one season, he is just a sixth Man?

I was. I doubted him all the way, until the first quarter of last year. I was wrong. I am not going to spend this season waiting to believe my eyes with Kyrie.

Not at all.  Loved IT from the jump and wanted to see him start ASAP.  I can't remember exact comments, but I'm sure my posts will definitely reflect that. 

Ogaju: I love me some Tatum.

So you loved IT from the jump, yet Kyrie is playing much better ball than IT did (even to start his first full season), yet you doubt Kyrie?

I get the whole "well we lost the trade angle" (even if I think getting the best player is winning the trade in the NBA, and disagree), but I seriously don't get people arguing IT is a better player.

He isn't.

Not one GM in this league would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.

Yet some here seem to think that is in question.

It isn't.

Kyrie is simply a better player than IT, without question.

I agree that there isn't a single GM that would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.  As I GM, I wouldn't fathom it, either.  But Kyrie's not the unanimously better player yet.  Can he be? Sure.  Is he already? It's possible, but he hasn't proven it yet imo.

I respect your right to your opinion, but lol.

That opinion goin' to look really silly real quick.

It is clear Kyrie is just a step above.

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #521 on: November 07, 2017, 12:06:35 AM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Where are all those loud Kyrie doubters now?

Seriously.

They're going to insist that they are right until he wins the Celtics a championship.  Stubborn.

I think they’re going to insist that Kyrie has yet to show he’s as good as IT, let alone better. Then throw in the BRK pick, Crowder, Zizic.

IT had 31 games of 30+ points last season. Kyrie has one.  He’s an exciting player, and a very good one, but that doesn’t mean we got good value.

Roy, you're clearly just being stubborn based on preconceived notions. Kyrie isn't being asked to score as much on this as Isaiah was last year. That said, two of the very things you questioned and harped on, defense and passing, Irving has shown to be way better than Thomas was. Agree?

Nope.

You really don't think irvings defense this year has been better than IT's was all of last year (and the year before that)?

There were two parts of that clause. Defense was only one of them.

IT had a better assist rate and led a much more efficient offense than Kyrie has to date. The “better passer” argument isn’t supported by data.

Are you really arguing this?

IT had an ast% of 32.5 compared to Kyrie's 31.7, a whopping .8 difference. Furthermore, IT did it on a usage % of 34.0 to Kyrie's 28.9, a significant difference of over 5%. When considering respective usages, Kyrie clearly has a better assist rate than IT, making your argument unsound. IT also wasn't playing with a brand new team returning only four players that relies heavily on rookies and young players.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2018&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id2_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y2=2017&player_id2=thomais02&idx=players

Stop being so stubborn with this trade, man. Kyrie has been phenomenal, and we're clearly in the lead with this trade, especially with IT not even planning on stepping onto the floor until 2018. Maybe the Brooklyn pick lands and ends up swinging it toward Cleveland, but from a player standpoint it's not even close.

I don't understand why people romanticize IT's tenure here so much. We were largely scrappy overachievers, but once we get an actual skilled team that is killing the league, all people want to do is romanticize the past. It's amazing.

IT has a better assist rate.

IT had about 4x as many “secondary assists” as Kyrie, and a significantly higher rate of “potential assists”, as well.

The Celtics scored about 11 more points per 100 possessions with IT as opposed to Kyrie playing. The Celts have dipped from 2nd to 7th in assist rate.

The difference in usage rate is due primarily due to shots taken.

I think you may be the one “romanticizing” here, with a healthy dose of recentcy  bias. The team’s passing has been worse and the offense has been worse. There has been a huge improvement on defense, though. Kyrie is part of that, and should get credit. That doesn’t mean he’s been better than IT in other areas, though.

You don't think comparing IT, in his third season in Beads offense, with guys he had played with for like 3 years, to Kyrie in his first few games is apples to apples?

This team has 4 returning players, of course the offense isn't as tight as last year's.

For someone who is knowledgeable about basketball, you sure seem to be intentionally avoiding context.

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #522 on: November 07, 2017, 12:15:44 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

Where you saying the same thing after IT's first season here, when people said it was only one season, he is just a sixth Man?

I was. I doubted him all the way, until the first quarter of last year. I was wrong. I am not going to spend this season waiting to believe my eyes with Kyrie.

Not at all.  Loved IT from the jump and wanted to see him start ASAP.  I can't remember exact comments, but I'm sure my posts will definitely reflect that. 

Ogaju: I love me some Tatum.

So you loved IT from the jump, yet Kyrie is playing much better ball than IT did (even to start his first full season), yet you doubt Kyrie?

I get the whole "well we lost the trade angle" (even if I think getting the best player is winning the trade in the NBA, and disagree), but I seriously don't get people arguing IT is a better player.

He isn't.

Not one GM in this league would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.

Yet some here seem to think that is in question.

It isn't.

Kyrie is simply a better player than IT, without question.

I agree that there isn't a single GM that would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.  As I GM, I wouldn't fathom it, either.  But Kyrie's not the unanimously better player yet.  Can he be? Sure.  Is he already? It's possible, but he hasn't proven it yet imo.

I respect your right to your opinion, but lol.

That opinion goin' to look really silly real quick.

It is clear Kyrie is just a step above.

Well, "just a step" and being made to "look silly" don't really add up, brohammer.

But I legitimately just gave Kyrie the benefit of the doubt in every way.  They were in two completely different circumstances -- IT carried a team, Kyrie took control in spots + LeBron + Cavs.  In reverse roles, I think they would've probably been similarly successfully. 

I don't think either side can end up losing this "Who is better?" debate, honestly.  Kyrie has way more firepower than IT ever did -- with (begrudging) credit to Ainge, Brown and Tatum have been ridiculously good.  But, it was an overpay; BKN could be just as good; their prior roles can't be reversed at this stage.



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Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #523 on: November 07, 2017, 12:19:04 AM »

Offline wayupnorth

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

Where you saying the same thing after IT's first season here, when people said it was only one season, he is just a sixth Man?

I was. I doubted him all the way, until the first quarter of last year. I was wrong. I am not going to spend this season waiting to believe my eyes with Kyrie.

Not at all.  Loved IT from the jump and wanted to see him start ASAP.  I can't remember exact comments, but I'm sure my posts will definitely reflect that. 

Ogaju: I love me some Tatum.

So you loved IT from the jump, yet Kyrie is playing much better ball than IT did (even to start his first full season), yet you doubt Kyrie?

I get the whole "well we lost the trade angle" (even if I think getting the best player is winning the trade in the NBA, and disagree), but I seriously don't get people arguing IT is a better player.

He isn't.

Not one GM in this league would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.

Yet some here seem to think that is in question.

It isn't.

Kyrie is simply a better player than IT, without question.

I agree that there isn't a single GM that would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.  As I GM, I wouldn't fathom it, either.  But Kyrie's not the unanimously better player yet.  Can he be? Sure.  Is he already? It's possible, but he hasn't proven it yet imo.

I respect your right to your opinion, but lol.

That opinion goin' to look really silly real quick.

It is clear Kyrie is just a step above.

Well, "just a step" and being made to "look silly" don't really add up, brohammer.

But I legitimately just gave Kyrie the benefit of the doubt in every way.  They were in two completely different circumstances -- IT carried a team, Kyrie took control in spots + LeBron + Cavs.  In reverse roles, I think they would've probably been similarly successfully. 

I don't think either side can end up losing this "Who is better?" debate, honestly.  Kyrie has way more firepower than IT ever did -- with (begrudging) credit to Ainge, Brown and Tatum have been ridiculously good.  But, it was an overpay; BKN could be just as good; their prior roles can't be reversed at this stage.

I don't agree. Much like with Davis, when a transcendent talent becomes available you get it done.

Re: Celtics (8-2) at Hawks (2-8) Game #11 11/6/17
« Reply #524 on: November 07, 2017, 12:22:05 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Roy and every one else that had questions about the trade, appreciated the heck out of IT, and are going to wait for Kyrie to prove himself in the same manner as he did, don't deserve to be attacked.  His points have always been valid, and despite some solid quarters (and tonight), Kyrie does still have a long way to go to warrant that trade.  So let's play nice.  It's a big sandbox.

Where you saying the same thing after IT's first season here, when people said it was only one season, he is just a sixth Man?

I was. I doubted him all the way, until the first quarter of last year. I was wrong. I am not going to spend this season waiting to believe my eyes with Kyrie.

Not at all.  Loved IT from the jump and wanted to see him start ASAP.  I can't remember exact comments, but I'm sure my posts will definitely reflect that. 

Ogaju: I love me some Tatum.

So you loved IT from the jump, yet Kyrie is playing much better ball than IT did (even to start his first full season), yet you doubt Kyrie?

I get the whole "well we lost the trade angle" (even if I think getting the best player is winning the trade in the NBA, and disagree), but I seriously don't get people arguing IT is a better player.

He isn't.

Not one GM in this league would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.

Yet some here seem to think that is in question.

It isn't.

Kyrie is simply a better player than IT, without question.

I agree that there isn't a single GM that would trade Kyrie for IT straight up.  As I GM, I wouldn't fathom it, either.  But Kyrie's not the unanimously better player yet.  Can he be? Sure.  Is he already? It's possible, but he hasn't proven it yet imo.

I respect your right to your opinion, but lol.

That opinion goin' to look really silly real quick.

It is clear Kyrie is just a step above.

Well, "just a step" and being made to "look silly" don't really add up, brohammer.

But I legitimately just gave Kyrie the benefit of the doubt in every way.  They were in two completely different circumstances -- IT carried a team, Kyrie took control in spots + LeBron + Cavs.  In reverse roles, I think they would've probably been similarly successfully. 

I don't think either side can end up losing this "Who is better?" debate, honestly.  Kyrie has way more firepower than IT ever did -- with (begrudging) credit to Ainge, Brown and Tatum have been ridiculously good.  But, it was an overpay; BKN could be just as good; their prior roles can't be reversed at this stage.

I don't agree. Much like with Davis, when a transcendent talent becomes available you get it done.

I think he's great, but not transcendent (same with IT).  Big Mo broke this down in another thread recently.  The last 6'2" transcendent talent, best player on a championship team, was...?

You can disagree all you want.  I'm still going to give you a TP. 
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