Author Topic: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East  (Read 10096 times)

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Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2021, 10:41:58 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.
I talked about Dallas and mentioned plenty of other teams in both conferences.  I didn't talk about GS because I don't think they are any good and would be surprised if they even got all that close to the playoffs.  Though right now they are 6-6 and tied with 3 other teams for 7th seed (though Denver is behind them and I put them in the upper part of the conference - similar to Miami that is off to a slow start this year as well). 

I just don't think there is a whole lot of difference to the bottom of the playoff teams nor really at the top of the conferences. 

The NBA title odds (post-Harden trade) also tend to show a pretty even mix

+260: Lakers
+270: Nets
+600: Clippers
+700: Bucks
+1800: Nuggets, Heat, 76ers
+2000: Jazz
+2100: Celtics
+2200: Mavs

So by similar odds

Lakers/Nets
Clippers/Bucks
Nuggets/Heat/76ers
Jazz/Celtics/Mavs

That basically has a fairly even mix at the top of the conference, though obviously the odds have the teams slightly differently than I did and that is the top 5 from each conference.  They had the Mavs instead of the Suns or Blazers, which I get given Luka is by far the hot betting guy, I just don't like the Mavs depth as opposed to the Suns or Blazers.
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Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2021, 01:30:12 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2021, 02:12:44 PM »

Offline Moranis

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.
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Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2021, 03:44:27 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

i just disagree and think there is generally an accepted consensus that the west is significantly deeper than the east. We can agree to disagree...

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2021, 12:35:19 AM »

Offline staticcc

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and East is lucky Harden moved too.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 03:02:29 AM by staticcc »
"The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Bunk

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2021, 01:16:51 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and they’re lucky Harden moved there too.

Yeah I mean I really don’t get how someone can say with a straight face that a team like the warriors which will be 8th or 9th wouldn’t stomp the Knicks, bulls or magic or whatever team ends up 8th in the east in a playoff series. I think the pelicans would too. It’s just a much deeper league right now

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2021, 08:28:17 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and East is lucky Harden moved too.
So we count Oladipo, but not Sabonis or Brogdon.  That seems strange since Sabonis and Brogdon were both better players when they were on the same team.  When you intentionally leave players off you get weird results.  And when you include players that are out for the year, you get weird results (like Klay).  Or when you don't include the player that is leading the league in Defensive Win Shares who also happens to lead the league in rebounds you get weird results.  And why include Fox but not Markkanen?  They are basically similar this year and throughout their careers.  You have DeRozan but not Hayward, that is weird, Hayward is better.  No Grant and his 25 ppg and 6 rpg.  Seems odd given the inclusion of many of the west players.

Your lists are ridiculously inaccurate. 
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Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2021, 08:36:39 AM »

Offline Moranis

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and they’re lucky Harden moved there too.

Yeah I mean I really don’t get how someone can say with a straight face that a team like the warriors which will be 8th or 9th wouldn’t stomp the Knicks, bulls or magic or whatever team ends up 8th in the east in a playoff series. I think the pelicans would too. It’s just a much deeper league right now
The Warriors aren't very good.  Curry is, but the Warriors are not.  They are a weird mix of players and Andrew Wiggins might very well be their 2nd best player.  Think about that.  I mean really think about that.  The Wizards also have a former MVP and unlike the Warriors have an All NBA caliber player as the other guy in the equation.  What makes the Warriors better than the Wizards?  I mean that seriously.  Without Klay there is almost no difference between them and frankly the way Beal and Curry have looked this year, you might take Beal over him and for all his faults you most certainly would take Westbrook over Wiggins.  Dray and his 4 ppg and 7 rpg is washed.  Wiseman is a rookie and Oubre is pretty much bleh.  The Warriors just aren't a good team this year.  No real difference between them and the Wizards, Hornets, Magic, etc. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2021, 11:26:48 AM »

Offline celticsclay

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and they’re lucky Harden moved there too.

Yeah I mean I really don’t get how someone can say with a straight face that a team like the warriors which will be 8th or 9th wouldn’t stomp the Knicks, bulls or magic or whatever team ends up 8th in the east in a playoff series. I think the pelicans would too. It’s just a much deeper league right now
The Warriors aren't very good.  Curry is, but the Warriors are not.  They are a weird mix of players and Andrew Wiggins might very well be their 2nd best player.  Think about that.  I mean really think about that.  The Wizards also have a former MVP and unlike the Warriors have an All NBA caliber player as the other guy in the equation.  What makes the Warriors better than the Wizards?  I mean that seriously.  Without Klay there is almost no difference between them and frankly the way Beal and Curry have looked this year, you might take Beal over him and for all his faults you most certainly would take Westbrook over Wiggins.  Dray and his 4 ppg and 7 rpg is washed.  Wiseman is a rookie and Oubre is pretty much bleh.  The Warriors just aren't a good team this year.  No real difference between them and the Wizards, Hornets, Magic, etc.

Are you just messing with me right now or actually being serious?
The Wizards are 3-8 and in their own star's words can't guard a parked car.
The Warriors are 7-6

Not that these are gospel but the Warriors are 14th in the recent NBA power rankings the Wizards were 29th. If you are being serious, what in the world are you talking about?

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2021, 11:40:53 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • James Naismith
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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and they’re lucky Harden moved there too.

Yeah I mean I really don’t get how someone can say with a straight face that a team like the warriors which will be 8th or 9th wouldn’t stomp the Knicks, bulls or magic or whatever team ends up 8th in the east in a playoff series. I think the pelicans would too. It’s just a much deeper league right now
The Warriors aren't very good.  Curry is, but the Warriors are not.  They are a weird mix of players and Andrew Wiggins might very well be their 2nd best player.  Think about that.  I mean really think about that.  The Wizards also have a former MVP and unlike the Warriors have an All NBA caliber player as the other guy in the equation.  What makes the Warriors better than the Wizards?  I mean that seriously.  Without Klay there is almost no difference between them and frankly the way Beal and Curry have looked this year, you might take Beal over him and for all his faults you most certainly would take Westbrook over Wiggins.  Dray and his 4 ppg and 7 rpg is washed.  Wiseman is a rookie and Oubre is pretty much bleh.  The Warriors just aren't a good team this year.  No real difference between them and the Wizards, Hornets, Magic, etc.

Are you just messing with me right now or actually being serious?
The Wizards are 3-8 and in their own star's words can't guard a parked car.
The Warriors are 7-6

Not that these are gospel but the Warriors are 14th in the recent NBA power rankings the Wizards were 29th. If you are being serious, what in the world are you talking about?
13 games in and the Wizards have some new pieces (not rookies) and RW, Hachimura, Wagner, and Bonga have missed a bunch of games (obviously not including Bryant because he is gone for the year).  I mean the Heat are 5-7 and the Raptors are 5-8, I don't think anyone expects that to hold.  The Warriors do have some quality wins, but let's see what they look like 30 games into the season.


Here are the rosters

Curry, Wiggins, Green, Oubre, Wiseman, Lee, Paschall, Wanamaker, Looney, Bazemore, Mulder

vs.

Beal, Westbrook, Bertrans, Avdija, Hachimura, Smith, Bonga, Lopez, Neto, Brown, Wagner

Those look pretty similar to me in quality, depth, and talent.  Kerr is a better coach than Brooks, which certainly helps the Warriors in that regard, but I really don't think there is much difference in those rosters.
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2021, 12:24:32 PM »

Offline ETNCeltics

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The player movement mentioned has little nothing to do with Lebron.

Jimmy Butler has been in the East almost his entire career. He was in the west for ~1 season.

Westbrook was traded to probably one of a few teams that would take him.

Harden might have based his somewhat on Lebron, who knows, but he went to a team with stars that would trade for him. Pretty small # of teams, I doubt he would've turned down, for example, a trade to GSW simply because Lebron.

Durant went to BK because Kyrie convinced him to go there. Kyrie wanted to be in NY, and Durant, always a follower, jumped on Kyrie's bandwagon. I doubt Lebron entered into either's mind, other than Kyrie talking about joining Lebron.

The best player to move in recent years, Kawhi, changed conferences and went to Lebron's backyard.

Star player movement has been a lot more about location, $$$, and putting together a group of 2 or 3 with a chance to win. I doubt the Lebron factor has been a real thing with many of them.

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2021, 12:48:53 PM »

Offline staticcc

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and East is lucky Harden moved too.
So we count Oladipo, but not Sabonis or Brogdon.  That seems strange since Sabonis and Brogdon were both better players when they were on the same team.  When you intentionally leave players off you get weird results.  And when you include players that are out for the year, you get weird results (like Klay).  Or when you don't include the player that is leading the league in Defensive Win Shares who also happens to lead the league in rebounds you get weird results.  And why include Fox but not Markkanen?  They are basically similar this year and throughout their careers.  You have DeRozan but not Hayward, that is weird, Hayward is better.  No Grant and his 25 ppg and 6 rpg.  Seems odd given the inclusion of many of the west players.

Your lists are ridiculously inaccurate.

Add them then. It won’t change. West >>>> East

Better yet, let’s focus on real stars and remove fringe stars from the list. Look at the potential All Star teams from each conference.

West 12: Lebron, AD, Curry, Jokic, Doncic, Dame, PG, Kawhi, Gobert, Mitchell, Booker, McCollum

East 12: Harden, Durant, Embiid, Tatum, Giannis, Brown, Middleton, Beal, Bam, Kyrie, Siakam? Simmons?

It’s not even close! Dame, PG, Kawhi, Mitchell and Gobert would hang with that East starting five while the West starters would eat the East reserves alive. Add Hayward and Sabonis - nothing changes.
"The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Bunk

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2021, 01:03:20 PM »

Offline staticcc

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The east has definitely caught up to the west. It used to be there were 1-2 "real" contenders in the east and there was a big dropoff to the rest. in the early 00's the east was abysmal. I mean those Iverson Sixers teams didnt belong in the finals. and they got destroyed by the lakers.

as much as i loved those teams, the IT4 celtics and run to game 7 against the depleted cavs celtics really overachieved in those years making it to the ECF

but I would put the Nets, Celtics, Sixers, Bucks, Heat all in the upper echelon teams in the east at least having 2 stars

I agree the east has caught up some at the top compared to the IT years and that time frame, but the problem is after that too 5 it really seems like tons and tons of mediocrity, especially if raptors can’t get it together. The west on the other hand is going to have some really good team probably not make the playoffs.
Miami isn't in the top 5 in the East right now either.  And a very mediocre Spurs team is currently in the playoffs out west.  I think you are greatly overestimating the mediocrity of the West.  Sure both LA teams look great and Denver and Utah are probably going to be pretty good (with Dallas rising), but after that, nothing to write home about.  And that is mostly so because the talent is evening out in the conferences, which was basically the point I was making.  Top tier players are moving East.  Now sure, maybe it isn't because of Lebron and some other reason, but for basically a decade everyone seemingly wanted to go West and now all of a sudden the East is the place to be.

I disagree. I think Portland has a lot of talent and is still working to figure it out. Apparently Nurkic had a very rough offseason and is still working back, but him lillard, mccollum and covington is a real lot of talent. I am not sure if they are there yet, but think Pelicans have a lot of talent with Zion, Ingram, Ball, Adams and Bledsoe. You also did not mention the suns who some are calling a dark horse contender with booker, paul and ayton. You compare these three teams to say the knicks, magic, hawks, and they are substantially better. It is a battle every night our west where in the east we have a real lot of garbage teams.

LAL > MIL
LAC = PHI
DEN < BKN
UTA = BOS
POR < MIA
PHO = IND

That is the top 6 in each conference, pretty darn even. 

Dallas is clearly the next best team.  After that though, I don't think there is a whole lot of difference between Toronto, Orlando, Atlanta, and Charlotte and teams like San Antonio, Memphis, New Orleans, and Oklahoma City.

The conference imbalance just isn't anywhere near what it once was and that is because the talent is much more evenly dispersed between the conferences than any time in the last decade.

Conveniently leaving out potential 7 and 8 seeds that LAL and LAC will face like GS with Curry and Dal with Doncic?

While top teams in the East essentially get byes with the Knicks/Magic/Hornets.

No byes in the West. Top East teams still face easier path.

Yea this is kind of the really key point (and not trying to do some weird matchup of top 5 teams. In the east, there is absolutely a ridiculous amount of bad teams. The magic have managed to become even more mediocre. The Knicks play hard but seem to clearly be a mediocre team with their best player as Randle. The Wizards look absolutely awful. The Bull are mediocre to bad. Charlotte is mediocre. The pistons and the cavs flat out stink. How many bad teams are there in the west. The Twolves and Thunder seem like the only obvious ones. Perenially bad teams like the Suns and the Pelicans and Grizzlies have made some progress to being competitive while the teams like the Cavs, Bulls and Knicks have not.
And yet the Cavs have split the season series with the Grizzlies with each winning on the road and while Morant didn't play in either game neither did Sexton, Garland, or Love (not that you can rely on Love, but the two young guards have been vital to the Cavs this year).  In fact, the Cavs are 4-2 with both of them with wins over Philly, Charlotte, and Atlanta. 

The terrible Knicks have beaten Milwaukee, Boston, Indiana, Utah, and Atlanta.  Not exactly scrub teams. 

Chicago just took Dallas to the woodshed in a game LaVine was 1 of 8 from the field.  At the end of a 6 game Western trip that started with them beating the Blazers.  They also beat Dallas earlier in the year.  So this great Dallas team apparently can't beat this non-competitive Bulls team.  What does that say about Dallas?

Detroit is bad, and yet their 3 wins are Boston, Phoenix, and Miami.  I think them and Minnesota are the two worst teams in basketball without much separating them. 

Sacramento and Houston might be the 3rd and 4th worst teams in basketball right now (yet to be seen what Houston actually looks like, but they were a weird collection of players before they traded their best player for a serious talent downgrade in Oladipo and a bunch of draft picks). 

I just think you aren't looking at the two leagues with any real consistency. 

If you project the playoff teams (not projected finish order, I just listed them by current record)

East - MIL, BOS, PHI, IND, BKN, MIA, TOR - then ? ORL/CHA/ATL/WAS

West - LAL, LAC, UTA, PHO, POR, DAL, DEN - then ? SAS/OKC/NOP/GS

I do think the 7th team in the West will end up better than the 7th team in the East (Dallas or Phoenix is better than Toronto), but the top 6 are pretty even, and the 8th teams are both going to be mediocre at best no matter who gets the spot as there really isn't much difference in the quality of the rosters of the 8 teams I put up there. 

This notion that the West is just brimming with all this talent and the East still a big pile of mediocre poo just isn't borne in reality any more and it is that way in a very large part because the top tier talent is much more evenly distributed between the two conferences now.

Let’s count then.

West talent - Lebron, AD, PG, Kawhi, Curry, Klay, CP, Booker, Fox, Morant, Zion, Ingram, DeRozan, Dame, CJ, Towns, Russell, SGA, Jokic, Murray, Mitchell, Gobert, Oladipo, Doncic, Porzingis

East talent - Embiid, Simmons, Tatum, Brown, Giannis, Middleton, Durant, Irving, Harden, Butler, Bam, Levert, Vucevic, Beal, Westbrook, Siakam, Lowry, Randle, Lavine, Young

West >>>> East and they’re lucky Harden moved there too.

Yeah I mean I really don’t get how someone can say with a straight face that a team like the warriors which will be 8th or 9th wouldn’t stomp the Knicks, bulls or magic or whatever team ends up 8th in the east in a playoff series. I think the pelicans would too. It’s just a much deeper league right now
The Warriors aren't very good.  Curry is, but the Warriors are not.  They are a weird mix of players and Andrew Wiggins might very well be their 2nd best player.  Think about that.  I mean really think about that.  The Wizards also have a former MVP and unlike the Warriors have an All NBA caliber player as the other guy in the equation.  What makes the Warriors better than the Wizards?  I mean that seriously.  Without Klay there is almost no difference between them and frankly the way Beal and Curry have looked this year, you might take Beal over him and for all his faults you most certainly would take Westbrook over Wiggins.  Dray and his 4 ppg and 7 rpg is washed.  Wiseman is a rookie and Oubre is pretty much bleh.  The Warriors just aren't a good team this year.  No real difference between them and the Wizards, Hornets, Magic, etc.

Are you just messing with me right now or actually being serious?
The Wizards are 3-8 and in their own star's words can't guard a parked car.
The Warriors are 7-6

Not that these are gospel but the Warriors are 14th in the recent NBA power rankings the Wizards were 29th. If you are being serious, what in the world are you talking about?
13 games in and the Wizards have some new pieces (not rookies) and RW, Hachimura, Wagner, and Bonga have missed a bunch of games (obviously not including Bryant because he is gone for the year).  I mean the Heat are 5-7 and the Raptors are 5-8, I don't think anyone expects that to hold.  The Warriors do have some quality wins, but let's see what they look like 30 games into the season.


Here are the rosters

Curry, Wiggins, Green, Oubre, Wiseman, Lee, Paschall, Wanamaker, Looney, Bazemore, Mulder

vs.

Beal, Westbrook, Bertrans, Avdija, Hachimura, Smith, Bonga, Lopez, Neto, Brown, Wagner

Those look pretty similar to me in quality, depth, and talent.  Kerr is a better coach than Brooks, which certainly helps the Warriors in that regard, but I really don't think there is much difference in those rosters.

Really?

To put this to bed. West vs East W-L for the last 3 seasons:

17-18: 237-213
18-19: 252-198
19-20: 211-178

All favoring the west. Oh and this year it’s 36-28 also favoring the West, with the Lakers and Clippers hardly playing East teams yet.

Will you argue against Statistics now?

"The bigger the lie, the more they believe." - Bunk

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2021, 01:10:10 PM »

Offline Moranis

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2020 All NBA Teams

1st Team
East - Giannis, Harden
West - James, Doncic, Davis

2nd Team
East - Siakam
West - Jokic, Leonard, Paul, Lillard

3rd Team
East - Butler, Simmons, Tatum, Westbrook
West - Gobert

Players injured at least a part of last year that when healthy are possible to appear on an All NBA Team
West - Curry, Porzingis
East - Durant, Irving, Embiid, Beal

Rising Stars with a chance for All NBA this year
West - Booker, Mitchell, Williamson
East - Young, Adebayo, Brown

All Defense Teams
1st Team
West - Gobert, Davis
East - Giannis, Simmons, Smart

2nd Team
West - Beverley, Leonard, Bledsoe
East - Adebayo, Lopez


That is by far the most even mix of talent the two conferences have had in over a decade.  It is a fact and isn't really debatable as the last time even 7 of the reigning All NBA players were in the East was 2006 (and there were seasons where not a single East member was on the 1st Team and a bunch of others where Lebron was the only 1).  And frankly, I expect the East to have 8 of the 15 All NBA players this year with Durant, Embiid, Beal, and Curry replacing Siakam, Gobert, Westbrook, and Paul and the rest of the players being on a team still. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
Wings - Dantley, Bowen, J. Jackson
Guards - Cheeks, Petrovic, Buse, Rip

Re: Lebron out West - Stars migrating East
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2021, 02:26:28 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Luka, Kawhi, Jokic, Dame all still out West.  Not to mention Mitchell / Gobert and Paul/Booker.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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