Jaylen Brown interview in NY Times

[Roy H.]

Wanting to watch the product while ignoring the person is dehumanizing.

Is it?  Can you enjoy Eastwood while ignoring / disliking his right-wing politics, or DeNiro without appreciating his quite progressive views?  What’s dehumanizing about ignoring somebody, or disagreeing with them, or even criticizing somebody?

I think it’s quite possible to appreciate and enjoy talent, without liking much more about the person.  That’s not dehumanizing, that’s appreciating that humans are multi-faceted.

[Dchuck]

It's behind a pay wall, but below is the relevant part discussing Boston and the Celtics:

"Brown made his second All-Star team this season, and his career-best 26.8 points a game places him among the top guards in scoring. He could be a free agent after next season, but he said he isn’t thinking about that yet. “I’ve been able to make a lot of connections in the city, meet a lot of amazing families who have dedicated their lives to issues about change,” he said.

Brown, who is Black, has spoken publicly about racism in Boston, where about half the population is white and about a quarter is Black. In 2015, a jolting study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston estimated that the Black households in the Boston area had a median wealth of close to zero, while the figure for white households was $247,500. “The wealth disparity in Boston is ridiculous,” Brown said.

What has your experience been like as a Black professional athlete in Boston?

There’s multiple experiences: as an athlete, as a basketball player, as a regular civilian, as somebody who’s trying to start a business, as someone who’s trying to do things in the community.

There’s not a lot of room for people of color, Black entrepreneurs, to come in and start a business.

I think that my experience there has been not as fluid as I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Even being an athlete, you would think that you’ve got a certain amount of influence to be able to have experiences, to be able to have some things that doors open a little bit easier. But even with me being who I am, trying to start a business, trying to buy a house, trying to do certain things, you run into some adversity.

Other athletes have spoken about the negative way that fans have treated Black athletes while playing in Boston. Have you experienced any of that?

I have, but I pretty much block it all out. It’s not the whole Celtic fan base, but it is a part of the fan base that exists within the Celtic nation that is problematic. If you have a bad game, they tie it to your personal character.

I definitely think there’s a group or an amount within the Celtic nation that is extremely toxic and does not want to see athletes use their platform, or they just want you to play basketball and entertain and go home. And that’s a problem to me."

Surprised to hear this and would like to know more details.

You don't really have to look too hard to see examples of what he's talking about. The shut up and dribble crowd is pretty vocal on social media. And there's more than a few posters on this forum that fall into that category too.

True.  But is that racism?  He’s part of an entertainment product (sports, NBA).  That doesnt dehumanize him.  Some people might just want to watch the product and have no interest in what else they’re doing.  Doesnt make it racist.  Same goes for other celebrities (actors, musicians, athletes, etc).  Do we have to care about what they do outside of what has given them fame?  And if we dont, does that make us bad?

Wanting to watch the product while ignoring the person is dehumanizing.

It doesn't make you bad if you don't care about what a celebrity does outside of their art/sport but if you're criticizing him for his views (or for just expressing them) then apparently you do care.

Im not criticizing his views.  He can think and/or say whatever he wants.  I just think all of this points to him leaving.

[RJ87]

It's behind a pay wall, but below is the relevant part discussing Boston and the Celtics:

"Brown made his second All-Star team this season, and his career-best 26.8 points a game places him among the top guards in scoring. He could be a free agent after next season, but he said he isn’t thinking about that yet. “I’ve been able to make a lot of connections in the city, meet a lot of amazing families who have dedicated their lives to issues about change,” he said.

Brown, who is Black, has spoken publicly about racism in Boston, where about half the population is white and about a quarter is Black. In 2015, a jolting study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston estimated that the Black households in the Boston area had a median wealth of close to zero, while the figure for white households was $247,500. “The wealth disparity in Boston is ridiculous,” Brown said.

What has your experience been like as a Black professional athlete in Boston?

There’s multiple experiences: as an athlete, as a basketball player, as a regular civilian, as somebody who’s trying to start a business, as someone who’s trying to do things in the community.

There’s not a lot of room for people of color, Black entrepreneurs, to come in and start a business.

I think that my experience there has been not as fluid as I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Even being an athlete, you would think that you’ve got a certain amount of influence to be able to have experiences, to be able to have some things that doors open a little bit easier. But even with me being who I am, trying to start a business, trying to buy a house, trying to do certain things, you run into some adversity.

Other athletes have spoken about the negative way that fans have treated Black athletes while playing in Boston. Have you experienced any of that?

I have, but I pretty much block it all out. It’s not the whole Celtic fan base, but it is a part of the fan base that exists within the Celtic nation that is problematic. If you have a bad game, they tie it to your personal character.

I definitely think there’s a group or an amount within the Celtic nation that is extremely toxic and does not want to see athletes use their platform, or they just want you to play basketball and entertain and go home. And that’s a problem to me."

Surprised to hear this and would like to know more details.

You don't really have to look too hard to see examples of what he's talking about. The shut up and dribble crowd is pretty vocal on social media. And there's more than a few posters on this forum that fall into that category too.

True.  But is that racism?  He’s part of an entertainment product (sports, NBA).  That doesnt dehumanize him.  Some people might just want to watch the product and have no interest in what else they’re doing.  Doesnt make it racist.  Same goes for other celebrities (actors, musicians, athletes, etc).  Do we have to care about what they do outside of what has given them fame?  And if we dont, does that make us bad?

I think you're conflating two different things.

If you don't care, you don't care. But there is a contingent that actively and aggressively attack him and other players. And yes, those attacks sometimes take on racist and political tones.

Political and racist aren’t necessarily the same thing.

I see this the same as people who don’t want movie stars making award shows political.  Hell, Richard Gere got suspended from the Academy Awards for like 20 years for criticizing China.

I disagree. There's a large section of politics that is not only rooted in racial bias, but also sexism.

When I see posts/tweets attacking Jaylen for being "too woke" to focus on basketball and that's why is handle is still shaky, there's a clear implication there. Thinking otherwise is at best naive and at worst willfully ignorant.

[Roy H.]

It's behind a pay wall, but below is the relevant part discussing Boston and the Celtics:

"Brown made his second All-Star team this season, and his career-best 26.8 points a game places him among the top guards in scoring. He could be a free agent after next season, but he said he isn’t thinking about that yet. “I’ve been able to make a lot of connections in the city, meet a lot of amazing families who have dedicated their lives to issues about change,” he said.

Brown, who is Black, has spoken publicly about racism in Boston, where about half the population is white and about a quarter is Black. In 2015, a jolting study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston estimated that the Black households in the Boston area had a median wealth of close to zero, while the figure for white households was $247,500. “The wealth disparity in Boston is ridiculous,” Brown said.

What has your experience been like as a Black professional athlete in Boston?

There’s multiple experiences: as an athlete, as a basketball player, as a regular civilian, as somebody who’s trying to start a business, as someone who’s trying to do things in the community.

There’s not a lot of room for people of color, Black entrepreneurs, to come in and start a business.

I think that my experience there has been not as fluid as I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Even being an athlete, you would think that you’ve got a certain amount of influence to be able to have experiences, to be able to have some things that doors open a little bit easier. But even with me being who I am, trying to start a business, trying to buy a house, trying to do certain things, you run into some adversity.

Other athletes have spoken about the negative way that fans have treated Black athletes while playing in Boston. Have you experienced any of that?

I have, but I pretty much block it all out. It’s not the whole Celtic fan base, but it is a part of the fan base that exists within the Celtic nation that is problematic. If you have a bad game, they tie it to your personal character.

I definitely think there’s a group or an amount within the Celtic nation that is extremely toxic and does not want to see athletes use their platform, or they just want you to play basketball and entertain and go home. And that’s a problem to me."

Surprised to hear this and would like to know more details.

You don't really have to look too hard to see examples of what he's talking about. The shut up and dribble crowd is pretty vocal on social media. And there's more than a few posters on this forum that fall into that category too.

True.  But is that racism?  He’s part of an entertainment product (sports, NBA).  That doesnt dehumanize him.  Some people might just want to watch the product and have no interest in what else they’re doing.  Doesnt make it racist.  Same goes for other celebrities (actors, musicians, athletes, etc).  Do we have to care about what they do outside of what has given them fame?  And if we dont, does that make us bad?

I think you're conflating two different things.

If you don't care, you don't care. But there is a contingent that actively and aggressively attack him and other players. And yes, those attacks sometimes take on racist and political tones.

Political and racist aren’t necessarily the same thing.

I see this the same as people who don’t want movie stars making award shows political.  Hell, Richard Gere got suspended from the Academy Awards for like 20 years for criticizing China.

I disagree. There's a large section of politics that is not only rooted in racial bias, but also sexism.

When I see posts/tweets attacking Jaylen for being "too woke" to focus on basketball and that's why is handle is still shaky, there's a clear implication there. Thinking otherwise is at best naive and at worst willfully ignorant.

I assume you know what “aren’t necessarily” means? 

Sure, some political takes are based upon racism.  Most aren’t.  Similarly, we’re seeing more and more opinions based upon antisemitism and black supremacy.  Selectively ignoring such opinions is at best willfully ignorant and at best racial hatred.

And, criticizing wokeness isn’t the same as being racist or sexist.  There are plenty of white “woke” men who advocate for all kinds of wild positions. 

[ozgod]

It's behind a pay wall, but below is the relevant part discussing Boston and the Celtics:

"Brown made his second All-Star team this season, and his career-best 26.8 points a game places him among the top guards in scoring. He could be a free agent after next season, but he said he isn’t thinking about that yet. “I’ve been able to make a lot of connections in the city, meet a lot of amazing families who have dedicated their lives to issues about change,” he said.

Brown, who is Black, has spoken publicly about racism in Boston, where about half the population is white and about a quarter is Black. In 2015, a jolting study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston estimated that the Black households in the Boston area had a median wealth of close to zero, while the figure for white households was $247,500. “The wealth disparity in Boston is ridiculous,” Brown said.

What has your experience been like as a Black professional athlete in Boston?

There’s multiple experiences: as an athlete, as a basketball player, as a regular civilian, as somebody who’s trying to start a business, as someone who’s trying to do things in the community.

There’s not a lot of room for people of color, Black entrepreneurs, to come in and start a business.

I think that my experience there has been not as fluid as I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Even being an athlete, you would think that you’ve got a certain amount of influence to be able to have experiences, to be able to have some things that doors open a little bit easier. But even with me being who I am, trying to start a business, trying to buy a house, trying to do certain things, you run into some adversity.

Other athletes have spoken about the negative way that fans have treated Black athletes while playing in Boston. Have you experienced any of that?

I have, but I pretty much block it all out. It’s not the whole Celtic fan base, but it is a part of the fan base that exists within the Celtic nation that is problematic. If you have a bad game, they tie it to your personal character.

I definitely think there’s a group or an amount within the Celtic nation that is extremely toxic and does not want to see athletes use their platform, or they just want you to play basketball and entertain and go home. And that’s a problem to me."

Surprised to hear this and would like to know more details.

We’re surprised that there’s a mostly consistent narrative coming from black athletes who play for Boston-based teams? Really?

Surprised because I never heard anything from him specific to his Boston experience till now.

[ozgod]

It's behind a pay wall, but below is the relevant part discussing Boston and the Celtics:

"Brown made his second All-Star team this season, and his career-best 26.8 points a game places him among the top guards in scoring. He could be a free agent after next season, but he said he isn’t thinking about that yet. “I’ve been able to make a lot of connections in the city, meet a lot of amazing families who have dedicated their lives to issues about change,” he said.

Brown, who is Black, has spoken publicly about racism in Boston, where about half the population is white and about a quarter is Black. In 2015, a jolting study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston estimated that the Black households in the Boston area had a median wealth of close to zero, while the figure for white households was $247,500. “The wealth disparity in Boston is ridiculous,” Brown said.

What has your experience been like as a Black professional athlete in Boston?

There’s multiple experiences: as an athlete, as a basketball player, as a regular civilian, as somebody who’s trying to start a business, as someone who’s trying to do things in the community.

There’s not a lot of room for people of color, Black entrepreneurs, to come in and start a business.

I think that my experience there has been not as fluid as I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Even being an athlete, you would think that you’ve got a certain amount of influence to be able to have experiences, to be able to have some things that doors open a little bit easier. But even with me being who I am, trying to start a business, trying to buy a house, trying to do certain things, you run into some adversity.

Other athletes have spoken about the negative way that fans have treated Black athletes while playing in Boston. Have you experienced any of that?

I have, but I pretty much block it all out. It’s not the whole Celtic fan base, but it is a part of the fan base that exists within the Celtic nation that is problematic. If you have a bad game, they tie it to your personal character.

I definitely think there’s a group or an amount within the Celtic nation that is extremely toxic and does not want to see athletes use their platform, or they just want you to play basketball and entertain and go home. And that’s a problem to me."

Surprised to hear this and would like to know more details.

You don't really have to look too hard to see examples of what he's talking about. The shut up and dribble crowd is pretty vocal on social media. And there's more than a few posters on this forum that fall into that category too.

I’m not active on social media so I guess I’ve been missing out of what people have been saying to him.

[RJ87]

It's behind a pay wall, but below is the relevant part discussing Boston and the Celtics:

"Brown made his second All-Star team this season, and his career-best 26.8 points a game places him among the top guards in scoring. He could be a free agent after next season, but he said he isn’t thinking about that yet. “I’ve been able to make a lot of connections in the city, meet a lot of amazing families who have dedicated their lives to issues about change,” he said.

Brown, who is Black, has spoken publicly about racism in Boston, where about half the population is white and about a quarter is Black. In 2015, a jolting study from the Federal Reserve Bank of Boston estimated that the Black households in the Boston area had a median wealth of close to zero, while the figure for white households was $247,500. “The wealth disparity in Boston is ridiculous,” Brown said.

What has your experience been like as a Black professional athlete in Boston?

There’s multiple experiences: as an athlete, as a basketball player, as a regular civilian, as somebody who’s trying to start a business, as someone who’s trying to do things in the community.

There’s not a lot of room for people of color, Black entrepreneurs, to come in and start a business.

I think that my experience there has been not as fluid as I thought it would be.

What do you mean by that?

Even being an athlete, you would think that you’ve got a certain amount of influence to be able to have experiences, to be able to have some things that doors open a little bit easier. But even with me being who I am, trying to start a business, trying to buy a house, trying to do certain things, you run into some adversity.

Other athletes have spoken about the negative way that fans have treated Black athletes while playing in Boston. Have you experienced any of that?

I have, but I pretty much block it all out. It’s not the whole Celtic fan base, but it is a part of the fan base that exists within the Celtic nation that is problematic. If you have a bad game, they tie it to your personal character.

I definitely think there’s a group or an amount within the Celtic nation that is extremely toxic and does not want to see athletes use their platform, or they just want you to play basketball and entertain and go home. And that’s a problem to me."

Surprised to hear this and would like to know more details.

You don't really have to look too hard to see examples of what he's talking about. The shut up and dribble crowd is pretty vocal on social media. And there's more than a few posters on this forum that fall into that category too.

I’m not active on social media so I guess I’ve been missing out of what people have been saying to him.

Not just towards Jaylen. It happens to several players on the team - and their relatives.

But when a black athlete talks about their experience with racism as an athlete playing in Boston, there's a rush by fans to discredit, diminish, and dismiss. We saw that here when Marcus Smart tried to talk about it. I think there's a strong contingent of fans that need to understand that just because they didn't personally experience or witness racism doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[aefgogreen]

I understand the idea that celebrities speaking on issues when they have undue influence is problematic. But I also think that as a young black man, Jaylen Brown has unique insight into racism, its effects, and possible solutions.  The issue I have is that if he is going to speak about racism he's experienced, he shouldn't duck questions concerning antisemitism.  I applaud Lebron for his work related to social justice.  But he also said that individuals advocating against human rights issues in China didn't really understand the situation - when it is well know that LeBron has financial interests in China.  Therefore, if you due choose to speak on a subject, I think you have to be prepared to be scrutinized and be accountable.

[Kuberski33]

I think he's accurate - to a point. Regarding the wealth disparity in Boston - spot on. There is no black middle class to speak of. The majority of that population is tucked into the poorest sections of Boston and other cities.  There certainly aren't many blacks in the suburbs, which are white dominant and always have been.

And that has to extend into the business community. The power brokers there are all white. Those doing the hiring tend to be white. And I think it is going to take another couple of generations (or longer) before that starts to change.
Just look at who's graduating from private colleges and universities - not to mention the private high schools around here. That's your next generation of business leaders and they're white as can be.

Being young, black and wealthy - for him, his money can open some doors. But there probably is a ceiling. It's probably the fault of no one alive today. It is what it is. And if Jaylen is really as smart as he sounds and has business savvy (no guarantee by the way - plenty of smart people are clueless when it comes to business) he could in fact be a real agent of change - should he choose to stay here. (play your whole career here, make a billion dollars plus, you'll be in a position to start changing some things).

He's also right that a portion of the fan base is racist and even more are toxic. Not all who are toxic are racist, I don't think. But I also believe that a sizeable chunk of white middle age sports fans are turned off by the NBA because it's so black. Those, by the way, are not Celtics fans.

But where I disagree with Jaylen is that Boston is also a very passionate sports town. We hate it when our teams lose - and when they do we have to point fingers and blame.  Carl Yastrzemski got booed. The talk shows (back when they were relevant) crucified generations of Red Sox players and managers (most of them white). Not to mention Patriots QB's and coaches, and Celtic players and coaches.

So when the C's play like crap - just look at this forum as an example - we're going to blame, belittle, mock etc. And because the Celtics are mainly black - guess what, some black athletes and coaches are going to come under fire.

But now add in sports gambling...when fans are going to lose money betting on these guys...it's only going to get worse and more toxic.

Is racism at the heart of that?  No way. But if you couple inbred sports passion with gambling - it can and will continue to get nasty when local teams and athletes don't perform up to expectations.

That's why they say not every athlete can play here.  And I don't see that situation improving at all.

[Roy H.]

I finally read the entire interview, and I've got to say, this interviewer sucked, haha.

For instance, there's this quote:

The N.B.A. and the union are negotiating a new collective bargaining agreement, with the players seeking a “true partnership” that lets them tap into more of the league’s revenue streams that would not exist without their labor, Brown said.

“We’d like to see our ethics, morals and values being upheld internationally and globally,” Brown said, “and we would like to have a say-so with the partners and the people that are being involved with the league, because our face, our value, our work ethic, our work, our labor is attached to this league as well.”

That is ripe for so much interesting conversation.  What ethics, morals and values would he like to see changed?  On an international scale, does this apply to China?  How much do players have control of these things even without the league's involvement, through their personal choices in branding?

I'm definitely not impressed with the Kanye and Kyrie stuff, but most of what JB had to say were just morsels of potentially interesting conversation where there was no further engagement.

[Big333223]

Wanting to watch the product while ignoring the person is dehumanizing.

Is it?  Can you enjoy Eastwood while ignoring / disliking his right-wing politics, or DeNiro without appreciating his quite progressive views? What’s dehumanizing about ignoring somebody, or disagreeing with them, or even criticizing somebody?

I think it’s quite possible to appreciate and enjoy talent, without liking much more about the person.  That’s not dehumanizing, that’s appreciating that humans are multi-faceted.

Yes, definitely. Those are two good examples of the kind of every-day dehumanization we all engage in. We put people who have full, multifaceted lives into categories like "actor" or "athlete" or "grocery store clerk" and are often surprised when it turns out these people have full personalities and diverse interests when we engage with them in a different context.

Heck, many fans are often taken aback when "comedic actor" tries to be "dramatic actor" because they have trouble accepting that actor doing anything other than what they've become known for.

I'm not saying to watch an Eastwood or DeNiro performance demands that you know and empathize with their entire being, I'm just acknowledging the dehumanization that comes from the categorization that we do all the time.

Even boiling down those two's politics to "right-wing" and "progressive" is, to some degree, dehumanzing as those brushes are awfully broad.

[green_bballers13]

Jaylen is gone. The Celtics should trade him this offseason. I think he would be treated better in a city with more diversity.

[tazzmaniac]

Jaylen is gone. The Celtics should trade him this offseason. I think he would be treated better in a city with more diversity.

Boston is 24% black which is significantly higher than the 14% national average.  There's also 20% latino and 10% asian.  That is pretty darn diverse.  Now if you mean he should go to a city with an even disproportionately higher percentage of black people that seems pretty racist to me.  And if you think that for Jaylen, wouldn't the same be true for Jayson and all the other black players on the team? 

[td450]

Wanting to watch the product while ignoring the person is dehumanizing.

Is it?  Can you enjoy Eastwood while ignoring / disliking his right-wing politics, or DeNiro without appreciating his quite progressive views? What’s dehumanizing about ignoring somebody, or disagreeing with them, or even criticizing somebody?

I think it’s quite possible to appreciate and enjoy talent, without liking much more about the person.  That’s not dehumanizing, that’s appreciating that humans are multi-faceted.

Yes, definitely. Those are two good examples of the kind of every-day dehumanization we all engage in. We put people who have full, multifaceted lives into categories like "actor" or "athlete" or "grocery store clerk" and are often surprised when it turns out these people have full personalities and diverse interests when we engage with them in a different context.

Heck, many fans are often taken aback when "comedic actor" tries to be "dramatic actor" because they have trouble accepting that actor doing anything other than what they've become known for.

I'm not saying to watch an Eastwood or DeNiro performance demands that you know and empathize with their entire being, I'm just acknowledging the dehumanization that comes from the categorization that we do all the time.

Even boiling down those two's politics to "right-wing" and "progressive" is, to some degree, dehumanzing as those brushes are awfully broad.

For most of us, being part of a much bigger, wider society is central to us being human. The notion that the people who we interact should understand us fully as human beings is as anti-human as it can get.

A number commonly cited is the "Dunbar" number, around 150, after which, most of us just can't truly know the people we interact with.

If you can't handle venturing past this threshold, don't. But the world doesn't work unless almost all of us do.

[green_bballers13]

Jaylen is gone. The Celtics should trade him this offseason. I think he would be treated better in a city with more diversity.

Boston is 24% black which is significantly higher than the 14% national average.  There's also 20% latino and 10% asian.  That is pretty darn diverse.  Now if you mean he should go to a city with an even disproportionately higher percentage of black people that seems pretty racist to me.  And if you think that for Jaylen, wouldn't the same be true for Jayson and all the other black players on the team?

I'm not sure if it is useful to compare rural areas with cities. Cities generally have a higher % of diverse communities. I don't think Boston has a disproportionate amount of diversity than other cities.

I think Jaylen is more tuned in to social justice issues than his teammates, based on his written and spoken words.

It's great if Jaylen wants to stay in Boston for his career. After reading, it seems like he wants out. In that case, Brad should trade him for something, as he's too good to let go without a return.