Author Topic: Current thoughts on Kyrie?  (Read 5670 times)

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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2019, 04:07:43 AM »

Offline keevsnick

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I hesitate to ask this, but three games in to the playoffs, has anybody changed their thoughts on Kyrie at all?  Does anybody still think we’d be a better overall team if he walked?

Incredible player.  He's a terrific leader.  Awesome teammate.  Best individual player we've had since 2008 Kevin Garnett.   He had arguably the best statistical season from a Boston Celtic since Larry Bird.  Hopefully he stays.

I agree just in terms of on the court play he has been absolutely amazing. Statistically we are a far better offense when he is on the court, and his individual advanced metrics and efficiency has been off the charts. He's made massive defensive improvement this year and is I think a top 12 NBA player.

But the thing is I can believe all that and still believe thats he's been a terrible leader most of this year, and a so-so teammate. Honestly, I think calling his an terrific leader is borderline indefensible. I mean even Kyrie doesn't believe he's been a terrific leader, he's admitted as much.  That said I think he's moved in the right direction as the year has went along, I think even if he's not perfect you still need somebody who can take over games and he's one of the bets at that. So overall I'm pro kyrie.

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2019, 04:24:15 AM »

Online SparzWizard

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I hesitate to ask this, but three games in to the playoffs, has anybody changed their thoughts on Kyrie at all?  Does anybody still think we’d be a better overall team if he walked?

Incredible player.  He's a terrific leader.  Awesome teammate.  Best individual player we've had since 2008 Kevin Garnett.   He had arguably the best statistical season from a Boston Celtic since Larry Bird.  Hopefully he stays.

Three games into the playoffs and the Celtics are 3-0. Last year, the Celtics were 2-1 in the first-rounds. Perhaps Irving is the true difference-maker in a 7-game series and winning on the road.


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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2019, 07:22:07 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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This playoff Kyrie is the guy I thought we were getting when he got here.

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2019, 07:48:41 AM »

RazzelnoDazzel

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I hesitate to ask this, but three games in to the playoffs, has anybody changed their thoughts on Kyrie at all?  Does anybody still think we’d be a better overall team if he walked?

Incredible player.  He's a terrific leader.  Awesome teammate.  Best individual player we've had since 2008 Kevin Garnett.   He had arguably the best statistical season from a Boston Celtic since Larry Bird.  Hopefully he stays.

I agree just in terms of on the court play he has been absolutely amazing. Statistically we are a far better offense when he is on the court, and his individual advanced metrics and efficiency has been off the charts. He's made massive defensive improvement this year and is I think a top 12 NBA player.

But the thing is I can believe all that and still believe thats he's been a terrible leader most of this year, and a so-so teammate. Honestly, I think calling his an terrific leader is borderline indefensible. I mean even Kyrie doesn't believe he's been a terrific leader, he's admitted as much.  That said I think he's moved in the right direction as the year has went along, I think even if he's not perfect you still need somebody who can take over games and he's one of the bets at that. So overall I'm pro kyrie.
I agree. Kyrie is no leader yet, he has much more maturing to do. It’s not really his fault as he was taught to lead underneath someone who is also a terrible leader *cough* Lebron James. Every phenomenol player doesn’t have to be the leader of a team.

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2019, 11:36:44 PM »

Online SparzWizard

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Well here's a legendary stat:

Kyrie Irving has not lost a single game in all of his four first-round playoff games. He is 16-0 in the first-round!

He also has the highest playoff winning percentage in NBA history with a whopping 76.4%


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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2019, 11:55:15 PM »

Offline ozgod

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Kyrie showed a lot of maturity today in recognizing in the 4th that a) he wasn't shooting particularly well; b) the Pacers were looking to double team him every time into the halfcourt and c) Hayward was feeling it. He facilitated, acted as a decoy and let Hayward close the game out in the last 5 minutes, instead of trying to force up shots because "he's the closer". I thought that was a good sign of leadership, in his earlier years in Cleveland he'd have felt a lot more pressure to be The Man.
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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2019, 02:15:23 AM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.
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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2019, 02:28:41 AM »

Offline Androslav

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.
Looking forward seeing your Kyrie report after each round.
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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2019, 04:48:33 AM »

Offline ozgod

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Kyrie's comments after Dame's 50-point game, on the importance of striking a balance.

Quote
Irving has two career 50-point games, both during the 2014-15 season with the Cleveland Cavaliers. He also dropped 42 on the Celtics in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference finals in 2017. He said there is a fine line between pursuing offense when you’re in a zone and incorporating teammates.

“You have to find that happy balance,” he said. “There are plenty of times where I played in games, and no matter who’s on the floor, where I felt like I could go out and get 50 every time I step on the court. I really feel like I’m capable of doing so just because of how much I work on my game and how much I prepare.

“But the flip side of it, the balance part is giving yourself up for your teammates and really seeing where you can find the defense sleeping and where you can manage the game better, rather than trying to go for all 50.”

https://www2.bostonglobe.com/sports/celtics/2019/04/24/kyrie-irving-took-note-damian-lillard-sparkling-game/ZVME7C3hk9suA87m5UhSFM/story.html
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2019, 06:05:58 AM »

Online BitterJim

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.

The 2016 Cavs?
I'm bitter.

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2019, 06:21:53 AM »

Offline gouki88

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.

The 2016 Cavs?
And their PG did it more!
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C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2019, 07:28:54 AM »

Offline Green-18

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.

The 2016 Cavs?
And their PG did it more!

Here's an anecdotal stat regarding Kyrie.  His usage rate of 28.4 in the Indiana series is lower than the highest player on every championship team since the 2013-14 Spurs.  Parkers' usage was a 28.3 during the Spurs title run.  Ignoring stats, I'd assume most people would believe that Kyrie keeps the ball longer than Parker.  This is not the case, as Parker averaged 5.37 seconds per touch, while Kyrie is at 5.26.  Parker also dribbled over 6 times per touch, as opposed to only 4.89 for Kyrie.   

Obviously we can't draw any conclusions after only one round.  I'm also not trying to compare the two offenses, as the 2014 Spurs played some of the best team basketball I've ever seen.  Truthfully, I hold some of the same concerns regarding Kyrie's temperament in the face of adversity.  That said, I feel the need to throw some of this stuff out there due to the overwhelming bias against Kyrie.  People can say what they want, but it's obvious that he's put in a concerted effort to adapt his game since coming to Boston.   

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2019, 07:39:16 AM »

Online Roy H.

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.

I agree largely about Kyrie’s lack of leadership and emotional downs.

Regarding ball domination, etc., I’d point to a relatively low usage and time of possession stats, which suggest that Kyrie holds the ball at a lower than average rate for a lead guard.

Who are some examples of PGs who would be better fits in your mind?


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Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2019, 07:52:47 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Yeah I don't get the thought that Kyrie is hijacking the offense, he's really moved the ball and shared both years in Boston.

I get wanting to move on from the perspective of his poor leadership and mood swings effecting the team. Ugh, most of all I want to not be sitting around with both the Celtics best players set to be FAs. Its just stressful.

Re: Current thoughts on Kyrie?
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2019, 07:53:30 AM »

Offline Sophomore

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My thoughts have not changed. It would obviously be better not to lose him for nothing and, no, I don't think Rozier is the answer, but I believe we are better off, in the long run, without Kyrie Irving. My preference would have been to trade him before the deadline for two guards - a playmaker point guard and a knock-down shooter.

Fans get caught up in Irving's isolated dazzling offensive displays and think, "see, if we don't have Irving's 30 points tonite, we are down 2-0 in this series." What people are missing is that, Irving's domination of the ball and shot clock usually paralyzes the other four players, who are left to stand and watch. They don't get involved offensively and become less active and less engaged on both ends of the court. We don't have the same type of players that Houston has, which better enables them to stand and react to Harden's dribbling forays - No, the Celtics have players who need to be moving to be effective, they need the ball moving, they need to be cutting away from the ball, they need to catch the ball within the offense, which allows them an open shot in rhythm or allows them to create offense for themselves or a teammate. Yes Irving did get out of the way in Game 4, but that is a rare ocurrence. Has their ever been an NBA champion with a point guard, who eats up the shot-clock dribbling on the perimeter like Irving does. Actually, I don't think the problem is that Kyrie is a selfish player who wants his points above all else - I just think it's his natural style and that it clashes with the playing style of the rest of the team Also, because he makes a couple of spectacular steals in the 4th quarter doesn't mean he is playing solid, consistent possession-after-possession team defense over the course of the entire game.

The other issue with Irving is his emotional inconsistency. Sure, right now after sweeping the first series, he is all smiles and loves playing for the Celtics. But when we hit a rough patch in these playoffs, lose a couple of games and the fans become upset, Irving most likely will revert to the moody, sullen, silent mal-content he was during stretches of the regular season. Again, that's simply his nature. He is not doing it on purpose or trying to sabatoge the Boston Celtics.

I suppose I just have a different perspective than most Celtic fans.

The 2016 Cavs?
And their PG did it more!

Here's an anecdotal stat regarding Kyrie.  His usage rate of 28.4 in the Indiana series is lower than the highest player on every championship team since the 2013-14 Spurs.  Parkers' usage was a 28.3 during the Spurs title run.  Ignoring stats, I'd assume most people would believe that Kyrie keeps the ball longer than Parker.  This is not the case, as Parker averaged 5.37 seconds per touch, while Kyrie is at 5.26.  Parker also dribbled over 6 times per touch, as opposed to only 4.89 for Kyrie.   

Obviously we can't draw any conclusions after only one round.  I'm also not trying to compare the two offenses, as the 2014 Spurs played some of the best team basketball I've ever seen.  Truthfully, I hold some of the same concerns regarding Kyrie's temperament in the face of adversity.  That said, I feel the need to throw some of this stuff out there due to the overwhelming bias against Kyrie.  People can say what they want, but it's obvious that he's put in a concerted effort to adapt his game since coming to Boston.   

TP.

The eye test tells people there is something different about Kyrie, but assuming that’s true, people aren’t capturing it when they say he ball hogs or holds the ball longer than other guards. It’s just not true.

I also wonder if it’s true that other players do stand around when he dribbles or that they need to. I would bet that if you look at the Cs best stretches you will find that there is off the ball action that often leads to passes and easy buckets. Why they don’t do it more regularly is an interesting question.