CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: chambers on November 04, 2012, 04:29:14 AM
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Kid is freakishly athletic, but he's always taken way too many possessions away from Durant and Harden.
Coach Nick breaks down the San Antonio game.
Westbrook is probably a 2 guard, not a PG, but he's still dumb as a rock bball wise.
He's great with the ball in his hands, but as Nick points out, he's lost on defense very often which doesn't really ever show up in his stats.
If Westbrook passed the ball more I think Durant could average 33-34 points a game and the Thunder would use less possessions to get their ridiculous offensive numbers-ultimately winning more games.
Anyway here's the vid. What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVitzGz9g2s&feature=youtu.be
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If we, god forbid, trade rondo for him I will go for okc
And he is an idiot
Don't get why they didn't trade him ???
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I didnt realize skip bayless had an account on here.. :o
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I didnt realize skip bayless had an account on here.. :o
lol does Skip hate Westbrook?
I don't hate him, I just think he's dumb as a rock. Must be frustrating to coach him and play with him when he's got all the physical tools to be a hall of famer but can't comprehend his teams offense.
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Westbrook is a SG not a PG. He takes way too many shots for my taste and sometimes forgets he is playing with Durant. Still even despite this he is talented enough to give most teams fits.
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I really do think he fell headfirst when he was still a baby. ;D
Classic photo I saw was him and kobe talking while sitting in a bench during the olympics. He had the look of dumb while sporting a mohawk hairdo.
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Not much of a Westbrook fan. Would rather have "HAD" D. ROse as my speed demon., ROndo or CP3.
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I feel bad for Durant. Could you imagine if OKC had gone for a Trio of Durant, CP3, and Harden?
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Westbrook is a SG, that's who he should be.
Having him at PG is, well, we saw it against SA. And I bet we'll see more as the season progress.
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Westbrook is a complete moron. His mental lapses are incredible and are going to hurt the thunder big time in the long run. He pretty much lost the Spurs game for them the other night. And they luckily pulled out a win when he jacked 26 shots to durants 14. When will he learn that Durant is miles better on the offensive end then he is.
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The Westbrook hate on this forum is high lately. Westbrook had an absolutely ridiculous 2011-12 season.
One point that people keep making is that Westbrook doesn't pass the ball enough, or rephrased, takes too many shots. Specifically that he doesn't pass the ball to the reigning scoring champ. I get that but here are some numbers from last season:
He was in the top 15 point guards in assists
He was in the top 5 in scoring and steals
He was the top rebounding point guard and top 10 among all guards.
He was top 5 in FT% among point guards
Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. If all of those things are just athletic gifts then I guess that is what you need in the NBA because those numbers are bonkers. Considering both he and Durant are in the top 5 in scoring from last season and their team made the finals I'm not sure where all the skepticism and criticism is coming from.
Here is something that people don't take into account. Durant hangs out by the 3 point line a lot. When he's not doing that he's in isolation or he's running off of screens. Now just for a second let's consider this. You're the PG. The other team has to double team Durant or at least guard the screens he's running off of. Westbrook driving when people are paying attention to Durant is a good move. Sometimes the best thing Durant can do is be the best player on the floor who never gets the ball. He takes everyones attention so Nick Collison can get easy layups or Westbrook can drive into 1 guy instead of 3 or so Ibaka and Perkins can get put backs. It was the same philosophy we had with Ray Allen except Durant is better and does other awesome and amazing things like lead the league in scoring despite being the focal point of most teams defense.
Anyway this is all to say stop hating on Westbrook. He's shown nothing but all-star, top tier greatness in his few years in the NBA. He does make mental mistakes. He's 23.
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Horrible decision maker, I don't care what he was Top 15 in. Him and D-Wade were about equally valuable to the Heat winning the whole thing last year.
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Westbrook is a PG ... just a score-first PG instead of a pass first PG. There lots of different ways to play a position and the way Westbrook does is perfectly acceptable.
What is important is Oklahoma understanding his strengths and weaknesses and building the rest of the team around him accordingly.
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The Westbrook hate on this forum is high lately. Westbrook had an absolutely ridiculous 2011-12 season.
One point that people keep making is that Westbrook doesn't pass the ball enough, or rephrased, takes too many shots. Specifically that he doesn't pass the ball to the reigning scoring champ. I get that but here are some numbers from last season:
He was in the top 15 point guards in assists
He was in the top 5 in scoring and steals
He was the top rebounding point guard and top 10 among all guards.
He was top 5 in FT% among point guards
Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. If all of those things are just athletic gifts then I guess that is what you need in the NBA because those numbers are bonkers. Considering both he and Durant are in the top 5 in scoring from last season and their team made the finals I'm not sure where all the skepticism and criticism is coming from.
Here is something that people don't take into account. Durant hangs out by the 3 point line a lot. When he's not doing that he's in isolation or he's running off of screens. Now just for a second let's consider this. You're the PG. The other team has to double team Durant or at least guard the screens he's running off of. Westbrook driving when people are paying attention to Durant is a good move. Sometimes the best thing Durant can do is be the best player on the floor who never gets the ball. He takes everyones attention so Nick Collison can get easy layups or Westbrook can drive into 1 guy instead of 3 or so Ibaka and Perkins can get put backs. It was the same philosophy we had with Ray Allen except Durant is better and does other awesome and amazing things like lead the league in scoring despite being the focal point of most teams defense.
Anyway this is all to say stop hating on Westbrook. He's shown nothing but all-star, top tier greatness in his few years in the NBA. He does make mental mistakes. He's 23.
The biggest stat that glares to me is out of 193 qualified (among stat numbers/game played) Russel Westbrook was number 189 in turnovers per game. His assists to turnover ratio was among the worst ten in the league.
He just doesnt make good decisions. When you've got the NBA scoring champion on your team taking as many shots as you and shooting better than you from all areas, wouldnt you try to get him the ball more often? Me thinks so...
And i hate to nitpick man but he was 8th in the league in steals not top 5, but more importantly, being top 15 in PG's as a good stat? That means HALF of the point guards in the league passed better than him. On a championship contender your PG has to make better decisions on when to get the ball to the open man.
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The Westbrook hate on this forum is high lately. Westbrook had an absolutely ridiculous 2011-12 season.
One point that people keep making is that Westbrook doesn't pass the ball enough, or rephrased, takes too many shots. Specifically that he doesn't pass the ball to the reigning scoring champ. I get that but here are some numbers from last season:
He was in the top 15 point guards in assists
He was in the top 5 in scoring and steals
He was the top rebounding point guard and top 10 among all guards.
He was top 5 in FT% among point guards
Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. If all of those things are just athletic gifts then I guess that is what you need in the NBA because those numbers are bonkers. Considering both he and Durant are in the top 5 in scoring from last season and their team made the finals I'm not sure where all the skepticism and criticism is coming from.
Here is something that people don't take into account. Durant hangs out by the 3 point line a lot. When he's not doing that he's in isolation or he's running off of screens. Now just for a second let's consider this. You're the PG. The other team has to double team Durant or at least guard the screens he's running off of. Westbrook driving when people are paying attention to Durant is a good move. Sometimes the best thing Durant can do is be the best player on the floor who never gets the ball. He takes everyones attention so Nick Collison can get easy layups or Westbrook can drive into 1 guy instead of 3 or so Ibaka and Perkins can get put backs. It was the same philosophy we had with Ray Allen except Durant is better and does other awesome and amazing things like lead the league in scoring despite being the focal point of most teams defense.
Anyway this is all to say stop hating on Westbrook. He's shown nothing but all-star, top tier greatness in his few years in the NBA. He does make mental mistakes. He's 23.
The biggest stat that glares to me is out of 193 qualified (among stat numbers/game played) Russel Westbrook was number 189 in turnovers per game. His assists to turnover ratio was among the worst ten in the league.
He just doesnt make good decisions. When you've got the NBA scoring champion on your team taking as many shots as you and shooting better than you from all areas, wouldnt you try to get him the ball more often? Me thinks so...
And i hate to nitpick man but he was 8th in the league in steals not top 5, but more importantly, being top 15 in PG's as a good stat? That means HALF of the point guards in the league passed better than him. On a championship contender your PG has to make better decisions on when to get the ball to the open man.
I was about to say, top 15 IN PGs... lol, how many good PGs are even in the league?! Heck, there are only about a handful of top notch PGs all together. Then the notion that Durant gets double teamed so it's sometimes best not to give him the ball... LOL pretty much most of the shots he takes and makes are doubled and triple teams, that's why he is the highest scorer, because it doesn't matter! You think when Shaq had 4 people hanging on him he would pass it out? LOL no, he took them with him! If you can score the rock the way guys like Durant can, he should be taking double Westbrook's shots! When you have Durant standing around looking around like he's on the bench when they are on offense, that's a problem! Just like Wade had to figure out after season 1, let LeBroid have the ball, let him take the big shots, and let him be "The Man", b/c he is the BEST player... Westbrook needs to learn that! Get your ego in check, Durant is clearly the best (second best overall), player on your team!! I also fault Durant, he needs some Kobe in him (not all the way as egotistical as he is though)... if you don't give Kome the ball then you might as well book your ticket outta there! Who do you think they would keep if Durant made complaints? No contest, WB would be out of there like Road Runner *meep meep*!
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Westbrook is a PG ... just a score-first PG instead of a pass first PG. There lots of different ways to play a position and the way Westbrook does is perfectly acceptable.
What is important is Oklahoma understanding his strengths and weaknesses and building the rest of the team around him accordingly.
The problem is they should be building around Durant, not Westbrook.
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Westbrook is a PG ... just a score-first PG instead of a pass first PG. There lots of different ways to play a position and the way Westbrook does is perfectly acceptable.
What is important is Oklahoma understanding his strengths and weaknesses and building the rest of the team around him accordingly.
The problem is they should be building around Durant, not Westbrook.
They should be building around both of them. It's not one or the other.
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Westbrook is a PG ... just a score-first PG instead of a pass first PG. There lots of different ways to play a position and the way Westbrook does is perfectly acceptable.
What is important is Oklahoma understanding his strengths and weaknesses and building the rest of the team around him accordingly.
The problem is they should be building around Durant, not Westbrook.
They should be building around both of them. It's not one or the other.
They should be building around both only is Westbrook gets his ego in check. Like "Imshakhesshaq" said, Westbrook needs to realize that Durant is "the second best overall player" in the league!
Durant needs some Kobe in him put Westbrook in his place and say get outta my way and give me the ball.
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It's a little weird (the level of criticism). In his 5th season, monster production. Could he be better? Yes. So could everyone in the NBA.
As for his finals performance:
27 ppg
6.6 Apg
6.4 RPG
2.2 TO pg
.433 from the field
.824 from the line
He was easily the 3rd best player in a finals that included Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, Harden, Ibaka. He gets criticized for shooting in the finals, but with Harden dropping a stink bomb and two of the best wing defenders in the NBA blanketing Durant, Westbrook was the bailout option on every single offensive possession.
Now, it is an interesting question (as I posted in another thread) whether OKC should have traded Westbrook or Harden based on what they could get in return. But both are franchise cornerstones. Just because they are not as good as Durant doesn't mean they shouldn't stay on Durant's team.
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Some of those games though one could argue they would have won with Durant having more touches. He is a ball hog at times and this hurts his team.
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Westbrook is a PG ... just a score-first PG instead of a pass first PG. There lots of different ways to play a position and the way Westbrook does is perfectly acceptable.
What is important is Oklahoma understanding his strengths and weaknesses and building the rest of the team around him accordingly.
The problem is they should be building around Durant, not Westbrook.
They should be building around both of them. It's not one or the other.
They should be building around both only is Westbrook gets his ego in check. Like "Imshakhesshaq" said, Westbrook needs to realize that Durant is "the second best overall player" in the league!
Durant needs some Kobe in him put Westbrook in his place and say get outta my way and give me the ball.
thing is he can't, have you seen him get on Westbrook? he acts like a baby and gets butt hurt
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I feel bad for Durant. Could you imagine if OKC had gone for a Trio of Durant, CP3, and Harden?
If that happened, I would take a break of a few years from nba
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The other thing to remember is, good as Durant is (and he's great), he does have flaws, and one is that he goes through periods where it's hard for him to get open.
Think about Ray Allen these last couple years, but if Ray Allen was our number one scoring option and we wanted him to get more touches.
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The Westbrook hate on this forum is high lately. Westbrook had an absolutely ridiculous 2011-12 season.
One point that people keep making is that Westbrook doesn't pass the ball enough, or rephrased, takes too many shots. Specifically that he doesn't pass the ball to the reigning scoring champ. I get that but here are some numbers from last season:
He was in the top 15 point guards in assists
He was in the top 5 in scoring and steals
He was the top rebounding point guard and top 10 among all guards.
He was top 5 in FT% among point guards
Those are absolutely ridiculous numbers. If all of those things are just athletic gifts then I guess that is what you need in the NBA because those numbers are bonkers. Considering both he and Durant are in the top 5 in scoring from last season and their team made the finals I'm not sure where all the skepticism and criticism is coming from.
Here is something that people don't take into account. Durant hangs out by the 3 point line a lot. When he's not doing that he's in isolation or he's running off of screens. Now just for a second let's consider this. You're the PG. The other team has to double team Durant or at least guard the screens he's running off of. Westbrook driving when people are paying attention to Durant is a good move. Sometimes the best thing Durant can do is be the best player on the floor who never gets the ball. He takes everyones attention so Nick Collison can get easy layups or Westbrook can drive into 1 guy instead of 3 or so Ibaka and Perkins can get put backs. It was the same philosophy we had with Ray Allen except Durant is better and does other awesome and amazing things like lead the league in scoring despite being the focal point of most teams defense.
Anyway this is all to say stop hating on Westbrook. He's shown nothing but all-star, top tier greatness in his few years in the NBA. He does make mental mistakes. He's 23.
The westbrook hate is not restricted to this forum...some people just call it as they see it...extremely gifted and extremely stupid basketball player
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Not only is he a selfish basketball player who makes dumb decisions on the court, he also makes even dumber decisions off the court. There were numerous reports of him and Harden drinking and partying late into the night in south beach during the finals, and we all saw how well they both played down in miami in that series. For that alone, I would trade him.
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Not only is he a selfish basketball player who makes dumb decisions on the court, he also makes even dumber decisions off the court. There were numerous reports of him and Harden drinking and partying late into the night in south beach during the finals, and we all saw how well they both played down in miami in that series. For that alone, I would trade him.
I hadnt heard about those party-up stories. That is maddening. Perhaps this explains Hardaways disappearance in the finals. What a [dang] shame. As a Durant fan my man deserves better. I expected the Thunder to have a put up a stronger fight last year. Dont drink and hey Durant dont train with your nemesis...
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I believe he has taken more shots than Durant in each of their three games this year....a great athlete who amazes me, BUT, OKC's game plan needs adjustment
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I liked Westbrook early on. I started to detest him when he became all-NBA. He is an excellent scorer, but he has the kind of game that, in my opinion, will always seem better than it is, especially with quality teammates. He will always accumulate stats, but many stats can be accumulated to the detriment of team perfomance.
Look at Parker. Parker can fly under the radar because he can play less aggressively as his teammates carry the scoring load some games. Yet, when needed, he can take over and win finals MVP. Parker probably could have had more all star games and more all-NBA appearances if he was more aggressive at scoring. Or maybe that is a moot point because Pop wouldn't let it happen. I have never really liked Parker due to my desire for Rondo to be considered better than Parker, but tonight I feel like he is an interesting counter to Westbrook. I wouldn't be surprised if someone convinced me otherwise in the next hour.
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Coach Nick gives an interesting perspective.
He states that KG no longer has the advantage over Bosh in the middle. I don't know what's changed to make him say that but the first game of the season isn't a platform for making that kind of judgement.
He also praises Sullinger and trashes Jeff Green for rookie mistakes, lack of aggression and poor defense. He also criticises his footwork which I have to agree with. Green's footwork is just hopeless sometimes.
What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/v/bos_JdGhSHI&hl=en_US&fs=1&
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I think Coach Nicks videos are pretty bad, and not worth the time, personally. Just not a fan.
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What is important is Oklahoma understanding his strengths and weaknesses and building the rest of the team around him accordingly.
I couldn't agree with this more
I'm going to ignore the people who say "I don't care about his stats" because I find that to be a nonstarter. If you are judging him by some metric of intangibles then I guess we'll just agree to disagree. He has, as Fan_from_VT put it, monster production.
I agree that his AST/TO ratio is bad but I would argue that his TOs aren't abnormally high, his assists are just low. He has the same number of TOs per game as Rondo last season, just half the assists. Then again Rondo had the best shooting team last season. Westbrook had #13. I know that can be a product of the PGs but it's a fair point nonetheless.
Further, his assists average for last season was down from the 2 seasons before we he hovered around 8. He certainly has the ability. He's just had to do different things as the team changes. He averaged 12 more points than Rondo last season. Assuming 2pt-ers and 50% shooting that is 12 more shots, or possessions. That is 12 more times he could have gotten an assist. Assume 50% shooting again for the passes and that is 6 more assists which puts him up there with Rondo.
I was about to say, top 15 IN PGs... lol, how many good PGs are even in the league?!
And i hate to nitpick man but he was 8th in the league in steals not top 5, but more importantly, being top 15 in PG's as a good stat?
Okay. Top 15 IN ASSISTS. He was the #1 scoring PG and #1 rebounding PG and top 5 in steals among PGs. I know I lumped that in with the scoring thing and that was probably confusing. Top 15 in the NBA isn't so bad to me, especially when that is your worst stat.
The westbrook hate is not restricted to this forum...some people just call it as they see it...extremely gifted and extremely stupid basketball player
My whole thread was to say I disagree and then to present numbers to back up my point of view. I think a very stupid player can't average the kind of numbers Westbrook has been putting up for the past 2 seasons. I'm not hiring him to do my taxes or anything but I think he's a pretty good PG who is growing up fast on a title contender. It's crazy to me people think he's, and I'm quoting, selfish, dumb, egotistical and a baby. I disagree with all of that. He's not Einstein but he's not a box of rocks either. He's a top PG in the NBA, by the numbers and by the results.
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My whole thread was to say I disagree and then to present numbers to back up my point of view. I think a very stupid player can't average the kind of numbers Westbrook has been putting up for the past 2 seasons. I'm not hiring him to do my taxes or anything but I think he's a pretty good PG who is growing up fast on a title contender. It's crazy to me people think he's, and I'm quoting, selfish, dumb, egotistical and a baby. I disagree with all of that. He's not Einstein but he's not a box of rocks either. He's a top PG in the NBA, by the numbers and by the results.
You don't have to have a broad basketball understanding if you are always going to try to score. You can be a box of rocks, because you aren't choosing an action based on the situation. It doesn't take much thought to take a pull up jumper. It may take great skill, but not much thought or insight. You can be a great scorer with a low basketball IQ. Similarly, you can get a lot of steals while being a bad defender and having a low basketball IQ. It just takes fast hands.
Westbrook is a very good player. But I have never thought he had a high basketball IQ. That can be a problem for a high usage PG, but OKC has had too much success with him to obsess on the problem. I may not like Westbrook's game these days, but they are better off with him than with most alternatives. Andre Miller could probably set Durant up much better, but the team would be worse. To some degree, you have to take the good with the bad. Westbrook will never be a cerebral player.
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I don't think anyone thinks he is a bad player... most people feels that he thinks he is the man when NO ONE would take him over Durant (probably not even WB's fans... okay maybe they would lol). He is a great player but he makes the wrong decision (usually to shoot) at the wrong times! Like I said, if Wade can take a backseat to the best player in the world then Wesbrook should have NO PROBLEM conceding to the number 2 player in the world! I know people think they need WB (and I actually like him), but I think they would be better with RR...
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How did "Re: Coach Nick's YouTube Breakdowns" become the title of the Westbrook thread? Was the Westbrook thread merged with an unrelated thread?
I have no idea who Coach Nick is, but this is annoying.
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How did "Re: Coach Nick's YouTube Breakdowns" become the title of the Westbrook thread? Was the Westbrook thread merged with an unrelated thread?
I have no idea who Coach Nick is, but this is annoying.
I'm a bit confused too, dunno who did it and don't want to mingle, but the only "offtopic" post (maybe there were two) were about other videos by Coach Nick.
Honestly, a bit confusing.
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How did "Re: Coach Nick's YouTube Breakdowns" become the title of the Westbrook thread? Was the Westbrook thread merged with an unrelated thread?
I have no idea who Coach Nick is, but this is annoying.
I'm a bit confused too, dunno who did it and don't want to mingle, but the only "offtopic" post (maybe there were two) were about other videos by Coach Nick.
Honestly, a bit confusing.
I posted the Westbrook video in 'Around the NBA'.
I then posted the Celtics vs Miami video by the same guy in 'Celtics Talk' becuase I thought it constituted Celtics talk and I focused on his positive words for Sully and his negative words for Green. I really don't know why the threads were merged, it's not like there's a flood of Coach Nick vids and it takes away from the different intentions of each post. One for general NBA discussion, and one for Celtic discussion. Many forum viewers won't see the Celtics vs Miami video now because they've been merged, and many won't know there's a video criticizing Westbrook.
I don't think the merging was justified and it annoyed me too.
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How did "Re: Coach Nick's YouTube Breakdowns" become the title of the Westbrook thread? Was the Westbrook thread merged with an unrelated thread?
I have no idea who Coach Nick is, but this is annoying.
I'm a bit confused too, dunno who did it and don't want to mingle, but the only "offtopic" post (maybe there were two) were about other videos by Coach Nick.
Honestly, a bit confusing.
I posted the Westbrook video in 'Around the NBA'.
I then posted the Celtics vs Miami video by the same guy in 'Celtics Talk' becuase I thought it constituted Celtics talk and I focused on his positive words for Sully and his negative words for Green. I really don't know why the threads were merged, it's not like there's a flood of Coach Nick vids and it takes away from the different intentions of each post. One for general NBA discussion, and one for Celtic discussion. Many forum viewers won't see the Celtics vs Miami video now because they've been merged, and many won't know there's a video criticizing Westbrook.
I don't think the merging was justified and it annoyed me too.
Don't worry too much about it m8. I'm sure we'll survive ;)
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I merged the videos, because the first thread was 'Im not the only person who thought Westbrook was a bonehead...' (The other person being 'Coach Nick'), and the second was 'He criticized Westbrook, Now he criticized Green', (he being 'Coach Nick')
So that's why they got merged. If anyone has any further questions about it they're welcome to PM me, Id be happy to discuss it further.
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You don't have to have a broad basketball understanding if you are always going to try to score. You can be a box of rocks, because you aren't choosing an action based on the situation. It doesn't take much thought to take a pull up jumper. It may take great skill, but not much thought or insight. You can be a great scorer with a low basketball IQ. Similarly, you can get a lot of steals while being a bad defender and having a low basketball IQ. It just takes fast hands.
Westbrook is a very good player. But I have never thought he had a high basketball IQ. That can be a problem for a high usage PG, but OKC has had too much success with him to obsess on the problem. I may not like Westbrook's game these days, but they are better off with him than with most alternatives. Andre Miller could probably set Durant up much better, but the team would be worse. To some degree, you have to take the good with the bad. Westbrook will never be a cerebral player.
My point was that I don't think he's the player he's being characterized in many of these comments. I don't think he's always looking to score. I think for 2 seasons he averaged 8+ assists. He also rebounds extremely well and averages high in steals annually. Those are basketball plays that don't just require athleticism but also an understanding of passing lanes and how to play basketball.
I don't buy the "he's getting by on his athleticism/skill" argument at all. I think those things propel him to be a great player but I think his motor and his understanding of basketball are key components too.
Fundamentally I agree with you. I like watching Rondo and Nash and Paul more than I like watching Westbrook. For my taste I just thing that is more fun to watch. However most of my responses have been to try to beat back a lot of the unmitigated Westbrook bashing. Of course he has flaws but it's ridiculous to call him names when he's proving to be one of the most productive point guards in the NBA on a very successful team. That is all I'm trying to say.