CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Chris22 on October 22, 2018, 11:18:22 PM
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I watched the game tonight, but I did not see him.
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I dont think anybody showed up tonight. When Tatum misses two straight wide open threes u know it isnt your night.
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He's had a very poor start to the season. Its not that he's missing shots, its that he looks lost on both sides of the floor and is making bad decisions that you would expect from a rookie, not from a 3rd year player who was one of your leading scores in a deep playoff run last year.
I think its more to do with the current roster meshing together and getting used to our sets than anything else.
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He's had a very poor start to the season. Its not that he's missing shots, its that he looks lost on both sides of the floor and is making bad decisions that you would expect from a rookie, not from a 3rd year player who was one of your leading scores in a deep playoff run last year.
I think its more to do with the current roster meshing together and getting used to our sets than anything else.
This and other teams are stepping up. The Celtics style of play and some players habits are the most well documented in the NBA. In the long run this won't matter as you still have to stop them, teams are going to find that harder as the Celtics mesh and they (other teams) have lost some of that early season desire to prove themselves.
Jaylen will come good and others will start to hit more shots, this is for sure. If the team was getting blown off the court I would worry but even a small improvement turns our loses around. And I trust in Brad.
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Third game in four nights.
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Our current pattern is W-L-W-L so therefore we are going to win on Thursday.
In all seriousness, the C's have two days off and should be no excuses to lose the next game at OKC. Expecting some breakout games from Kyrie and Tatum.
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His recipe for success was to attack the basket and lurk for the corner three. No one is really attacking the basket this year save Kyrie. We are literally living and dying by the three and a team of jumpshooters. This has to change.
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His recipe for success was to attack the basket and lurk for the corner three. No one is really attacking the basket this year save Kyrie. We are literally living and dying by the three and a team of jumpshooters. This has to change.
agreed but Brad's offense has always been bomb from 3 and get what you can from defensive turnovers. hate it with a passion. we've got a few guys that offer mismatches with whomever defends them that we should be able to get more buckets in the post --> Al, Smart, Tatum, Brown and even Morris. I know post play is like a foreign concept in today's NBA (oh what I'd give to see Kevin Mchale work his magic in the post again) but it's valuable as an option on offense when outside shots aren't falling (which has become the norm apparently this season).
considering how Jaylen has been completely lost this season, I'm starting to wonder if that abysmal showing in game 7 has gone to his head. silly notion but if this poor play continues, I wonder if that disaster has affected him mentally
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
It's a balancing act for sure. The entire starting lineup seems too focused on getting others involved, as opposed to letting their instincts take over. Brad expressed this concern in an interview before the season started.
I completely agree that someone needs to assert themselves as an alpha, particularly early in games. Thus far it feels like Kyrie waits until we are struggling before he starts looking for his offense. I would like to see him attack right from the jump. Hopefully this sets a tone for the rest of the team and then our motion offense will fall into place. An aggressive mentality is contagious.
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
That's what I'm seeing, too. The roles aren't as well defined as they have been the past two seasons.
Jaylen got used to being more than a 3-and-D player in the playoffs and spent the summer trying to get better but now, on this team, his best role is 3-and-D wing which probably feels like a move backward. But Kyrie, Hayward, and Tatum are all better ballhandlers and playmakers so there isn't going to be much opportunity for him to do more than what he did last season.
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
This is a real good point Roy and I think you have to mix in that some think Tatum may be the best player on the roster and he's a scorer. This needs to be sorted out.
Looking at last night's numbers, Hayward was very good offensively in the minutes he played. I have a feeling he can integrate himself at that end however is necessary. Kyrie stunk the first half and that didn't help, but then he realized he needed to do more and he did. It is going to take awhile. And Jaylen in particular looks very tentative right now.
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
This ^
Both players you name are recovering from injuries. Hayward is on restricted minutes and Kyrie is working himself into basketball condition. Both players are slowly looking better and better. Problem is the young players are not quite ready.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
He is already better than Jeff Green ever was. We gonna say that Al Horford is morphing into Mo Speights? Irving into Dion Waiters? Hayward into Marvin Williams? Tatum into Bogdonavic? Rozier into Canaan?
Come on now. You can create the most negative narratives possible, or you can assume the most likely possibility -- that the Celtics will figure this out.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
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I love these threads.
I don’t remember seeing these though when he was dropping almost 20 a night in the playoffs last year.
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The idea that you can judge Jaylen Brown's entire third year and determine he has leveled off as a player 4 games into his third year is pretty stunning. I am using the word stunning to be respectful.
A 4 game sample size is not a large enough sample size to judge a player's entire year. I am very surprised by the very intelligent posters on this board that are doing so.
Brown developed from raw talent to very exciting as a rookie when he started for a hurt Avery Bradley. He came back his sophomore year and had amazing development in all phases of his game. In the playoffs, even though he got hurt and played so for the last games in the series, he grew again and was the best Celtics on the floor most nights, even scoring 30+ points in two games becoming the youngest Celtic to ever score 30 points in a playoff game.
He has struggled through 4 games. I am going to wait and see before making declarative statements on any of the Celtic players this year and the team as a whole. Let's not forget, this team was 2-2 after 4 games last year as well.
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It's October 23rd. Let that sink in....
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
says the guy who proclaimed Fultz to be a highly valuable trade chip in the Kawhi sweepstakes as well as the same guy who treats everyone in Celtic green as a scrub while players on other teams are always so much better than the ones we have.
your talent evaluation isn't the greatest.
at some point Brown will get his mojo back. if nothing else, he'll be better than Green if for no other reason than he'll put more effort in on defense every night
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Jaylen will be fine. He is an determined hardworking smart player. We need time to gel. It will happen in the coming games. I am looking forward to April not October.
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This team is in neutral waiting for the two projected alpha dogs to get back to 100%. Both are not, at this point in the season, and one of them is on limited minutes with no back to back games.
The kids seem to not want to overstep while waiting for and allowing the Gordon Hayward of his Utah Jazz days and the Kyrie of last year to come back.
The truth is, we don't know what the true status of Hayward and Kyrie really is. But I can see that Gordon is looking better and better, and the same can be said of Kyrie.
In the meantime hold the fort.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
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I love these threads.
I don’t remember seeing these though when he was dropping almost 20 a night in the playoffs last year.
Yeah, well, that's the question, isn't it? What happened...
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
I love this. Thanks for giving us precedent to make comparisons via raw numbers.
Since you’re so great at it, let’s pull up first and second year Kobe Bryant numbers and place them next to Jaylen Brown’s. They’re incredibly similar, would you say that comparing the two of them is fair?
No, you wouldn’t. A bit of advice, look up the term confirmation bias.
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His recipe for success was to attack the basket and lurk for the corner three. No one is really attacking the basket this year save Kyrie. We are literally living and dying by the three and a team of jumpshooters. This has to change.
TP. Totally agree. Kevin Mchale was talking about this during the NBATV Broadcase. The Magic were killing the C's in the paint and he was clamoring for the C's to do the same. Every time he did the C's would go to the paint and get an easy bucket. They'd make a run and the Magic would hit a 3. The c's kept trying to make a run by hitting jumpers. If they would have pounded the paint the outcome would have been different. Not sure if the length of Bamba and Isaac scared the C's but man it was a poorly shot game.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
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I love these threads.
I don’t remember seeing these though when he was dropping almost 20 a night in the playoffs last year.
Yeah, well, that's the question, isn't it? What happened...
4 games
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
I think you will see this team take off once GH dunks on someone. It doesn't have to be Giannis but it has to be somebody. Sounds stupid but this team, and Gordon, need this to happen so they can start playing for real.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
I love this. Thanks for giving us precedent to make comparisons via raw numbers.
Since you’re so great at it, let’s pull up first and second year Kobe Bryant numbers and place them next to Jaylen Brown’s. They’re incredibly similar, would you say that comparing the two of them is fair?
No, you wouldn’t. A bit of advice, look up the term confirmation bias.
Kobe's numbers aren't actually that similar. His role was also a lot different than either Brown or Green (by year 2, Brown and Green were full time starters playing in the 30 mpg range, Kobe started 1 game his 2nd year). Kobe also came out of high school and didn't have 2 or 3 years of college. And the comparison isn't just per 36, it is role, totals, etc. Brown and Green are very similar comparisons through 2 seasons.
As I said, I would expect Brown to continue to improve, unlike Green, but you can't totally right off the possibility that maybe Brown is who he is at this point. Not every player goes through a Giannis, Butler, Leonard, Kobe, etc. type progression. Some guys enter the league and just don't get all that much better like Jeff Green, Kelly Olynyk, etc. Heck Marcus Smart is basically the same player he was after year 2 that is now (stronger a bit better defensively, but essentially the same type and level of player).
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
says the guy who proclaimed Fultz to be a highly valuable trade chip in the Kawhi sweepstakes as well as the same guy who treats everyone in Celtic green as a scrub while players on other teams are always so much better than the ones we have.
your talent evaluation isn't the greatest.
at some point Brown will get his mojo back. if nothing else, he'll be better than Green if for no other reason than he'll put more effort in on defense every night
Come on, I was merely talking about what was reported i.e. that had the Sixers included Fultz, Leonard would have been in Philadelphia right now. That isn't my opinion on that at all. I think the red flags with Fultz are absolutely there and he may never recover and live up to the potential, but as I said in my previous post, Fultz has played just 20 games in his career. That is a bit early to write off his talent.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
And if you're so eager to compare brown to green after 4 games then you need to reevaluate. Give it time.
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Not too impressed with Jaylen so far but I did really like what I saw from that 3 he hit towards the end of the game that put us within striking distance.
I give TMac a lot of credit for teaching Jaylen that he needs to learn how to operate in limited space. They played 1 on 1 games this offseason where they had to score on the defender without dribbling.
I feel like Jaylen has never had much coaching that didn't just focus on making him and transition player and open shooter. TMac showed Jaylen he isn't always going to be completely open but needs to be able to capitalize even when he's got a defender in his face.
Late in the 4th last night Jaylen received the pass and leaned into his shot in such a way that his defender was unable to bother his 3. IMO if he can figure out how to hit that consistently that is the type of play that turns Jaylen from a respectable 3 and D player to a top 10 wing in the NBA.
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Kobe also came out of high school and didn't have 2 or 3 years of college.
(by year 2, Brown and Green were full time starters playing in the 30 mpg range, Kobe started 1 game his 2nd year).
You understand you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, right?
Brown didn't have 2 or 3 years of college, either. He played one year, which is closer to Kobe's zero than to Green's three.
Similarly, all three players became starters at different times: Green was force fed minutes as a rookie, Jaylen earned his minutes as a sophomore, and Kobe became a full-time starter in year three. Notably, though, Kobe and Jaylen played fairly similar minutes their first two years (17 mins / 31 minutes for Jaylen, 16 mins / 26 mins for Kobe).
And, despite being more similar to Kobe in career arc, he's no more likely to turn into Kobe than he is into Green.
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The idea that you can judge Jaylen Brown's entire third year and determine he has leveled off as a player 4 games into his third year is pretty stunning. I am using the word stunning to be respectful.
A 4 game sample size is not a large enough sample size to judge a player's entire year. I am very surprised by the very intelligent posters on this board that are doing so.
Brown developed from raw talent to very exciting as a rookie when he started for a hurt Avery Bradley. He came back his sophomore year and had amazing development in all phases of his game. In the playoffs, even though he got hurt and played so for the last games in the series, he grew again and was the best Celtics on the floor most nights, even scoring 30+ points in two games becoming the youngest Celtic to ever score 30 points in a playoff game.
He has struggled through 4 games. I am going to wait and see before making declarative statements on any of the Celtic players this year and the team as a whole. Let's not forget, this team was 2-2 after 4 games last year as well.
I didn't mean to imply I was writing off Brown's 3rd year, just 4 games in, but a lot of what I mentioned in a post after this has to be concerning.
Brown probably should be a SF. His ball handling isn't really good enough to be a SG and he struggles defensively with the quicker guards. With Hayward and Tatum, though, Brown's only real long term minutes will be at SG. I am concerned about him doing that long term as I think it will continue to cause issues for him.
In addition, he went from the 2nd option on offense last year (behind Irving) to now at best the 4th option (Irving, Hayward, and Tatum), and I think he is struggling a great deal with that change in role. I'd like to think he recovers and figures it out, but that can often be a tough pill to swallow and to adjust to. Tying into that, how does he get his shots? He isn't a great ball handler, he is perhaps the worst shooter in the starting lineup, he isn't going to be a guy that is crashing the boards and taking it coast to coast. Last year, when he was the secondary ball handler, it was a lot easier for him to find his offense, that won't be the case this year, and I'm concerned about how he gets shots, other than when he gets the ball on kick-outs and essentially becomes a spot-up shooter (which isn't his strong point).
And we can't forget the long stretches last year, where it looked like Brown wasn't in the game. This disappearing act is not a new thing this year. Brown often lacked initiative on offense last year. Now that he is down the pecking order and has the ball less, I think there are real concerns that he has a lot of games where you forget he is on the floor.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
And if you're so eager to compare brown to green after 4 games then you need to reevaluate. Give it time.
I compared their first 2 years, not 4 games. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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The idea that you can judge Jaylen Brown's entire third year and determine he has leveled off as a player 4 games into his third year is pretty stunning. I am using the word stunning to be respectful.
A 4 game sample size is not a large enough sample size to judge a player's entire year. I am very surprised by the very intelligent posters on this board that are doing so.
Brown developed from raw talent to very exciting as a rookie when he started for a hurt Avery Bradley. He came back his sophomore year and had amazing development in all phases of his game. In the playoffs, even though he got hurt and played so for the last games in the series, he grew again and was the best Celtics on the floor most nights, even scoring 30+ points in two games becoming the youngest Celtic to ever score 30 points in a playoff game.
He has struggled through 4 games. I am going to wait and see before making declarative statements on any of the Celtic players this year and the team as a whole. Let's not forget, this team was 2-2 after 4 games last year as well.
I didn't mean to imply I was writing off Brown's 3rd year, just 4 games in, but a lot of what I mentioned in a post after this has to be concerning.
No it doesn't mean it has to be concerning. You are just using your confirmation bias to make a silly comparison. As was pointed out, you can use Kobe's first two years and say he will be the next Kobe. You can use Jimmy Butler's first two years and say he will be better than Jimmy Butler. You can use James Harden's first two years and say he will be the next Harden.
Also, your concerns about him guarding SG's makes zero sense. Jaylen Brown finished 9th for DPOY, ahead of defensive star Marcus Smart. Ahead of great SG defenders like Klay Thompson and Victor Oladipo. Brown's defensive FG% guarded was like a -6 something, one of the best in the league.
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Kobe also came out of high school and didn't have 2 or 3 years of college.
(by year 2, Brown and Green were full time starters playing in the 30 mpg range, Kobe started 1 game his 2nd year).
You understand you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, right?
Brown didn't have 2 or 3 years of college, either. He played one year, which is closer to Kobe's zero than to Green's three.
Similarly, all three players became starters at different times: Green was force fed minutes as a rookie, Jaylen earned his minutes as a sophomore, and Kobe became a full-time starter in year three. Notably, though, Kobe and Jaylen played fairly similar minutes their first two years (17 mins / 31 minutes for Jaylen, 16 mins / 26 mins for Kobe).
And, despite being more similar to Kobe in career arc, he's no more likely to turn into Kobe than he is into Green.
Thanks, Roy. Couldn’t agree more with this assessment.
Outside of the way Brown runs with his arms strait and your poorly developed political arguments, I couldn’t be happier that Celtics basketball is back. 😂 TP
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The idea that you can judge Jaylen Brown's entire third year and determine he has leveled off as a player 4 games into his third year is pretty stunning. I am using the word stunning to be respectful.
A 4 game sample size is not a large enough sample size to judge a player's entire year. I am very surprised by the very intelligent posters on this board that are doing so.
Brown developed from raw talent to very exciting as a rookie when he started for a hurt Avery Bradley. He came back his sophomore year and had amazing development in all phases of his game. In the playoffs, even though he got hurt and played so for the last games in the series, he grew again and was the best Celtics on the floor most nights, even scoring 30+ points in two games becoming the youngest Celtic to ever score 30 points in a playoff game.
He has struggled through 4 games. I am going to wait and see before making declarative statements on any of the Celtic players this year and the team as a whole. Let's not forget, this team was 2-2 after 4 games last year as well.
I didn't mean to imply I was writing off Brown's 3rd year, just 4 games in, but a lot of what I mentioned in a post after this has to be concerning.
No it doesn't mean it has to be concerning. You are just using your confirmation bias to make a silly comparison. As was pointed out, you can use Kobe's first two years and say he will be the next Kobe. You can use Jimmy Butler's first two years and say he will be better than Jimmy Butler. You can use James Harden's first two years and say he will be the next Harden.
Also, your concerns about him guarding SG's makes zero sense. Jaylen Brown finished 9th for DPOY, ahead of defensive star Marcus Smart. Ahead of great SG defenders like Klay Thompson and Victor Oladipo. Brown's defensive FG% guarded was like a -6 something, one of the best in the league.
half his time last year he was a SF. he was worse at SG. In the playoffs, he had the worst DRTG of all of the starters in the 2 series he was a starter, playing the SG position, and to be clear it isn't like the Cavs and Bucks have great SG's. Time will of course bear all of this out, but I really don't like Brown at SG. I think he is a much better player at SF, and I would expect to see him to continue to struggle playing SG basically full time (especially when Hayward is back to a full load minutes wise). I'd love to be wrong, but Brown just feels like a SF to me when I watch him play, both offensively and defensively, and that is never going to be his role on a team that has 2 better players at the SF then he is (even if Tatum spends most of his time at PF, which I don't think is ideal, but I have far more confidence in Tatum at PF then I do then Brown at SG).
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
says the guy who proclaimed Fultz to be a highly valuable trade chip in the Kawhi sweepstakes as well as the same guy who treats everyone in Celtic green as a scrub while players on other teams are always so much better than the ones we have.
your talent evaluation isn't the greatest.
at some point Brown will get his mojo back. if nothing else, he'll be better than Green if for no other reason than he'll put more effort in on defense every night
Come on, I was merely talking about what was reported i.e. that had the Sixers included Fultz, Leonard would have been in Philadelphia right now. That isn't my opinion on that at all. I think the red flags with Fultz are absolutely there and he may never recover and live up to the potential, but as I said in my previous post, Fultz has played just 20 games in his career. That is a bit early to write off his talent.
to give you the benefit of the doubt that this is really what you meant, allow me to let you know that what you just posted is not what came across in any of your posts on that topic.
that aside, Brown a better defender than Green and tends to show effort a lot more often than Green. his shot is off so far this year but barring unanticipated PTSD from game 7 in the ECF where his offense was total crap, he should break out of this funk at some point (hopefully very soon).
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
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No one of the starting 5 Celtics have anything going anywhere anyhow on offense.
The extra pass count has gotten to the point that the players don't know what to do when they get the ball. Brown trots into the corner and watches Irving Iso's for better or for worse.
Last year the Celtics struggled early with Irving's presence on the floor and they straightened it out. Brown, early in his rookie season, was prone to "watching the game" which is possible with the Celtics as Horford/Irving and Tatum have massive punch.
The bench rotations have been awful too. Rozier has had energy but, nothing else and Hayward just hasn't ever played with any of these guys before...this is his fifth game as a Celtic?
Last night was rough, but, it was an endless stream of deferred chances at the rim. Half of the drives down the lane ended with a crazy chuck to the perimeter to a player who didn't want the ball.
Get a picture of Brown in the corner with his hands on his knees watching the top of the key...put a thought bubble over his head..."why the hell are we losing to these guys?"
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The effort is not there for some reason.
Someone posted that Celtics looked like they were still on vacation.
We are one Jason Tatum fall away jumper from being 1-3.
Kyrie is coming back, however.
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Yes he IS.
He is not the only one going through a funk.
Considering how long Hayward AND Kyrie will have to get back into game shape AND MESH with JB, Tatum and Big Al we may have to dial back our win total to "ONLY" 55 games..
Also take into consideration that Baynes is out for some time, too. Theis is trying to get his game legs, too.
This TEAM will get it together in a few weeks. Give em' time.
This is a jog, not a sprint.
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Yes he IS.
He is not the only one going through a funk.
Considering how long Hayward AND Kyrie will have to get back into game shape AND MESH with JB, Tatum and Big Al we may have to dial back our win total to "ONLY" 55 games..
Also take into consideration that Baynes is out for some time, too. Theis is trying to get his game legs, too.
This TEAM will get it together in a few weeks. Give em' time.
This is a jog, not a sprint.
I'd like to see more of Theis and Williams.
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Yes he IS.
He is not the only one going through a funk.
Considering how long Hayward AND Kyrie will have to get back into game shape AND MESH with JB, Tatum and Big Al we may have to dial back our win total to "ONLY" 55 games..
Also take into consideration that Baynes is out for some time, too. Theis is trying to get his game legs, too.
This TEAM will get it together in a few weeks. Give em' time.
This is a jog, not a sprint.
You couldn't be more correct. Last night the C's were abysmal, abominable... yet, would have put the game into OT if they'd hit 1 of the 2 makeable 3's they put up in their final possession. C's will get it together -- too much talent not to.
But I have to admit that I'm a little disappointed in Jaylen in particular -- thought we'd see early signs of advances in his game as we've seen from Jayson. But no question it's early and Jaylen is adjusting again to a new role -- no longer a go-to scorer as he was in the playoffs. I think it's best if Jaylen focuses on his defensive skills and take the offense when it presents -- which it will, especially as his teammates get rolling offensively.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
Yeah, it must be the dozen people poking holes in your argument. Definitely not the one rogue opinion that consistently predicts Celtics outcomes poorly, lol.
Tell me then, what was the ‘logic’ behind Brown becoming Jeff Green and what is the timeframe of said ‘logic?’ Because it sure seemed like you used 4 games of evidence.
And i think we can all agree only a basketball rookie would compare per 36 stats of a starter on a 55 win team (who spent 1 year in college) to those of a 3 year college player getting forcefed minutes on a 30-win lottery team. So... what’d I miss?
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
Except, yeah, you did. Here is the post
Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
Except, yeah, you did. Here is the post
Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
That isn't a comparison based on 4 games. It is a comparison based on 2 years and 4 games into year 3. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It is very strange that so many people don't understand simple reading comprehension concepts.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
Except, yeah, you did. Here is the post
Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
That isn't a comparison based on 4 games. It is a comparison based on 2 years and 4 games into year 3. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It is very strange that so many people don't understand simple reading comprehension concepts.
Or you wrote it out poorly and can't understand why people are misunderstanding what you wrote.
I would suggest reading that post over again and maybe re-explain your position instead of insulting other's reading comprehension, which I shouldn't have to tell you is against site rules.
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
Except, yeah, you did. Here is the post
Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
That isn't a comparison based on 4 games. It is a comparison based on 2 years and 4 games into year 3. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. It is very strange that so many people don't understand simple reading comprehension concepts.
Except comparing the first 2 years makes no sense, since Green played 3 years in college and then got forcefed minutes in a terrible team, and Jaylen played one year in college and put up meaningful stats on 50 win teams. By your logic, we could just as easily say he turned into Kobe last playoffs.
I guess if all you really focus on is comparing numbers, this might be too complicated.
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Just 4 games, already 4 games, Brown looks like he is still on vacation
Hayward is getting better every game, Kyrie is getting better at PG and works hard on D, Theis is getting better to his form, Tatum is beasting, AL is saving his legs and Brown is watching games in the corner stand, maybe thinking what to speech next
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Morphing into Jeff Green before our eyes.
Not close.
Promising first two years and then completely leveled off and disappears at key moments. That is Jeff Green. So far that is Jaylen Brown. Brown certainly can turn it around, but 4 games into year 3, he is following the Jeff Green path pretty darn well.
Did Green ever average 18 / 5 / .549 eFG% in the playoffs, falling one game short of the Finals? All before age 22?
You know as well as I do that the Thunder did not make the playoffs in either of Green's first 2 seasons in the league.
And we've gone through these comparisons before, but here are their first two seasons per 36 (and they had similar roles and minutes).
Year 1
13.8 p, 5.9 r, 1.7 a, 0.9 s, 0.5 b, 1.8 t, 3.8 f - 50.7 2PT, 34.1 3PT, 68.5 FT (53.9 TS)
13.4 p, 6.1 r, 1.9 a, 0.7 s, 0.8 b, 2.5 t, 3.2 f - 44.4 2PT, 27.6 3PT, 74.4 FT (49.1 TS)
Year 2
17.0 p, 5.8 r, 1.9 a, 1.2 s, 0.4 b, 2.1 t, 3.0 f - 50.7 2PT, 39.5 3PT, 64.4 FT (56.2 TS)
16.2 p, 6.5 r, 1.9 a, 1.0 s, 0.4 b, 2.2 t, 2.5 f - 46.3 2PT, 38.9 3PT, 78.8 FT (53.6 TS)
Fairly similar numbers in year 1 and year 2 for both them. Similar jumps in production. Green leveled off completely and never got any better. Brown was about a year younger in each season, so he has that going for him and he has been the better shooter.
I believe Brown will continue to grow because that is what most players do, but Jeff Green did not and he is not the only player that peaked very early in his career. Couple that with their overall first 2 years numbers being similar. And like Green, Brown is being squeezed out for better players that weren't around his first couple of seasons and also is arguably being forced to play out of position to accommodate those better players (Durant forced Green to play PF and Russ, Harden, and Ibaka were all added after Green - similarly Hayward/Tatum are forcing Brown to play SG, who along with Irving were all added after Brown joined the team).
Going by your logic does that mean Fultz is a bust after 4 games?
Who said anything about Brown being bust? And including the playoffs, Fultz has played 20 games in his career. If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Except you’re using 4 games to discount Jaylens whole last year and make the claim that he’s ‘turning into Jeff Green in front of our eyes.’
If you think 4 recent games is all you need to overrule the last 100 games before that, then why don’t you let us know why we can’t decide Fultz is a bust after 20 games (5x more games than you used for your hot take), which coincidentally is also his whole career and not 3% of it like your focus on Jaylen.
didn't do that at all. It is really strange these made up arguments people make.
moranis, i like your posts, but this particular thread is not your best work. maybe let it go here and move on to greener discussions.
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Some chemistry problems out there Stevens has to deal with. I don't think Hayward belongs in the starting lineup, for one. He needs a role as a 6th man off the bench on this team. He has never really established a role, being injured so soon.They need a lot more defense and athleticism in that starting 5. Which means more of Brown, Tatum and Rozier. Irving isn't up to his standards yet, either.
They need to put a running, athletic team out there. A young team that can transition quickly and get easy shots. You see four guys on the perimeter passing to each other for a 3 and you fall asleep. I call it lazyball.
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Some chemistry problems out there Stevens has to deal with. I don't think Hayward belongs in the starting lineup, for one. He needs a role as a 6th man off the bench on this team. He has never really established a role, being injured so soon.They need a lot more defense and athleticism in that starting 5. Which means more of Brown, Tatum and Rozier. Irving isn't up to his standards yet, either.
They need to put a running, athletic team out there. A young team that can transition quickly and get easy shots. You see four guys on the perimeter passing to each other for a 3 and you fall asleep. I call it lazyball.
Hayward as the sixth man, yes. I have been saying this all season.
The second unit needs shooting desperately.
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will Brad put Gordon on the bench or will Gordon have to volunteer for the role?
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will Brad put Gordon on the bench or will Gordon have to volunteer for the role?
You don't bench your best player. Hayward is Boston's best player, he needs to be in the starting lineup. If you tinker with the starting lineup at all you either move Tatum or Brown to the bench (for Morris or Smart). Lesser players, but may very well be a better fit and would allow the younger guy more free reign leading the bench unit.
I actually think moving Brown to the bench would do him a lot of good and would also help Smart, so I'd start Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford and let Brown have a bit more free reign and a more defined role where he can have the ball in his hand a bit more. Smart can then just be the defensive stopper and not worry about offense at all, which is what I think his role really should be (he tries to hard offensively on the 2nd unit).
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will Brad put Gordon on the bench or will Gordon have to volunteer for the role?
You don't bench your best player. Hayward is Boston's best player, he needs to be in the starting lineup. If you tinker with the starting lineup at all you either move Tatum or Brown to the bench (for Morris or Smart). Lesser players, but may very well be a better fit and would allow the younger guy more free reign leading the bench unit.
I actually think moving Brown to the bench would do him a lot of good and would also help Smart, so I'd start Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford and let Brown have a bit more free reign and a more defined role where he can have the ball in his hand a bit more. Smart can then just be the defensive stopper and not worry about offense at all, which is what I think his role really should be (he tries to hard offensively on the 2nd unit).
Bring Brown and Rozier off the bench together for Irving and Tatum. Let them change the game and bring the energy.
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
It's what it reminds me of as well. Guys are doing fake drives where they only drive to kick it back out. They don't even reach the paint sometimes. Need a few guys to establish themselves. Kyrie has started to do it but is missing shots. Morris is doing it, but we don't want him to most of the time. Hayward might not be ready for a month or two. Tatum might not have the leeway with coaches and teammates yet. It's not Rozier's role and Brown isn't enough of a playmaker to do it. Smart can't shoot well enough.
Clearly, this is all leading to an MVP season from Yabu as soon as he realizes it's all on him.
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will Brad put Gordon on the bench or will Gordon have to volunteer for the role?
You don't bench your best player. Hayward is Boston's best player, he needs to be in the starting lineup. If you tinker with the starting lineup at all you either move Tatum or Brown to the bench (for Morris or Smart). Lesser players, but may very well be a better fit and would allow the younger guy more free reign leading the bench unit.
I actually think moving Brown to the bench would do him a lot of good and would also help Smart, so I'd start Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford and let Brown have a bit more free reign and a more defined role where he can have the ball in his hand a bit more. Smart can then just be the defensive stopper and not worry about offense at all, which is what I think his role really should be (he tries to hard offensively on the 2nd unit).
Bring Brown and Rozier off the bench together for Irving and Tatum. Let them change the game and bring the energy.
Not a bad strategy. The starting backcourt of last year's conference finals team coming off your bench together. Smart bolstering the first unit's defense. Could be the plan.
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will Brad put Gordon on the bench or will Gordon have to volunteer for the role?
You don't bench your best player. Hayward is Boston's best player, he needs to be in the starting lineup. If you tinker with the starting lineup at all you either move Tatum or Brown to the bench (for Morris or Smart). Lesser players, but may very well be a better fit and would allow the younger guy more free reign leading the bench unit.
I actually think moving Brown to the bench would do him a lot of good and would also help Smart, so I'd start Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford and let Brown have a bit more free reign and a more defined role where he can have the ball in his hand a bit more. Smart can then just be the defensive stopper and not worry about offense at all, which is what I think his role really should be (he tries to hard offensively on the 2nd unit).
Bring Brown and Rozier off the bench together for Irving and Tatum. Let them change the game and bring the energy.
I think that team is way too small with Rozier, Smart, Hayward, Brown, and Horford. Now maybe you also bring Morris in for Hayward at the same time and that might work.
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I think if Brown or Tatum go to the bench they would be replaced by Around Baynes rather than Morris or Smart. Baynes off/on court defensive numbers are unreal. Stevens moving a great defender into the lineup while sending a young scorer to the bench would seem to make sense.
That said, I don't think Stevens does it. I think he is hoping his current small lineup will get so well offensively that over teams will change to try to stop them.
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I think if Brown or Tatum go to the bench they would be replaced by Around Baynes rather than Morris or Smart. Baynes off/on court defensive numbers are unreal. Stevens moving a great defender into the lineup while sending a young scorer to the bench would seem to make sense.
That said, I don't think Stevens does it. I think he is hoping his current small lineup will get so well offensively that over teams will change to try to stop them.
exactly, IF they could actually gel and all play to their potential then the opponent would have to adjust, just hasn't happened yet. did anyone notice that last pre-season we played really well, ball movement was great. I was really excited then but this preseason it didn't look as good. we expected them to turn it around once the regular season starts, not yet
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He is, and it's his BIRTHDAY!!!
(https://d2gg9evh47fn9z.cloudfront.net/800px_COLOURBOX3660468.jpg)
Birthday Happy, Jaylen. Very Birthday Happy.
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He looks so lost out there. I really think he needs to come off the bench with Smart starting. The starters could use Smart's toughness and Brown just needs to be in a spot where he is more the focal point so he can get the touches he needs to find his groove.
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He looks so lost out there. I really think he needs to come off the bench with Smart starting. The starters could use Smart's toughness and Brown just needs to be in a spot where he is more the focal point so he can get the touches he needs to find his groove.
This is we're I'm at too. I think Brown is the one from the starters that should be on the bench, for either Baynes or Smart. I think he got too used to getting lots of shots early with Kyrie and GH down, and hasn't adjusted to being the 4th/5th option
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Brown finally looks good. Don't think it is a coincidence that he is getting a lot of touches as Irving is taking a back seat a bit. For that reason, I do think Brown should be coming off the bench when he will have a lot more free reign to shoot.
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Yes. Yes he is.
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Yes. Yes he is.
and that is a good thing for the celtics.
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Before tonight Jaylen was 8th on the team in touches. Could be a reason he has struggled after being a #2 option last year.
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Before tonight Jaylen was 8th on the team in touches. Could be a reason he has struggled after being a #2 option last year.
This is what I've been saying and why I don't like Brown starting. He is a better player when he has the ball more and he just isn't going to have many nights where he is getting the ball a lot in the starting unit.
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Before tonight Jaylen was 8th on the team in touches. Could be a reason he has struggled after being a #2 option last year.
This is what I've been saying and why I don't like Brown starting. He is a better player when he has the ball more and he just isn't going to have many nights where he is getting the ball a lot in the starting unit.
It's a bit counter-intuitive, considering Brown is probably our 6-7 best playmaker (not a knock on him), but it makes sense.
For example, I think Brown could be every bit as good as Wiggins offensively with a higher usage rate. But I also think that Wiggins would struggle in Jaylen's role.
Horford may be good with picking his spots, but that comes with experience and IQ. Brown may just need more reps.
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Before tonight Jaylen was 8th on the team in touches. Could be a reason he has struggled after being a #2 option last year.
This is what I've been saying and why I don't like Brown starting. He is a better player when he has the ball more and he just isn't going to have many nights where he is getting the ball a lot in the starting unit.
It's a bit counter-intuitive, considering Brown is probably our 6-7 best playmaker (not a knock on him), but it makes sense.
For example, I think Brown could be every bit as good as Wiggins offensively with a higher usage rate. But I also think that Wiggins would struggle in Jaylen's role.
Horford may be good with picking his spots, but that comes with experience and IQ. Brown may just need more reps.
I don't see Brown similar to Horford at all. Horford has always been very good at picking his spots and has never needed the ball to get his. He obviously has gotten better with experience, but I just don't think Brown is that type of game. Brown has always been at his best when he gets lots of touches with a higher usage. Some players just need the ball to really be successful and that seems like Brown's game to me.
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We need Jaylen to be good so we can package him, Rob Williams, Rozier, sac pick and fillers for A. Davis.. 😀
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Before tonight Jaylen was 8th on the team in touches. Could be a reason he has struggled after being a #2 option last year.
This is what I've been saying and why I don't like Brown starting. He is a better player when he has the ball more and he just isn't going to have many nights where he is getting the ball a lot in the starting unit.
It's a bit counter-intuitive, considering Brown is probably our 6-7 best playmaker (not a knock on him), but it makes sense.
For example, I think Brown could be every bit as good as Wiggins offensively with a higher usage rate. But I also think that Wiggins would struggle in Jaylen's role.
Horford may be good with picking his spots, but that comes with experience and IQ. Brown may just need more reps.
I don't see Brown similar to Horford at all. Horford has always been very good at picking his spots and has never needed the ball to get his. He obviously has gotten better with experience, but I just don't think Brown is that type of game. Brown has always been at his best when he gets lots of touches with a higher usage. Some players just need the ball to really be successful and that seems like Brown's game to me.
Jaylen is not playing at the level he did last year, but I’m not ready to say I know the ceiling for this just-turned-22 year old player five games into the season. He may find his way on offense - last night he was a big plus. I think the issue is he wants to grow his playmaking ability, which would come with growing pains in any offense. I’m hopeful he and the team will figure it out and we will be that much more lethal.
Let’s not forget that his defense remains a huge asset for this team. How many 2-guards can defend Blake Griffin effectively? Pretty sure he draws Durant if we play GSW, and he can switch onto Steph Curry or Klay and still cover very very well.
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Deleted double-post.
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Good to see him knocking down shots last night.
With this team, he should be watching film on JJ Redick, Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton. Jaylen is more athletic and more purely talented than any of them but with his lack of skill as a playmaker and the presence of so many other playmakers on the team, I think Jaylen would find a lot of success becoming a master cutter off the ball.
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Good to see him knocking down shots last night.
With this team, he should be watching film on JJ Redick, Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton. Jaylen is more athletic and more purely talented than any of them but with his lack of skill as a playmaker and the presence of so many other playmakers on the team, I think Jaylen would find a lot of success becoming a master cutter off the ball.
That's hard to do when so many of Stevens offensive sets have Jaylen sitting in the corner waiting for a kick out three pointer. Watch Stevens sets. He usually has two players sitting in each corner. There just isn't a lot of running around off picks looking to lose your man and cut to the basket looking for a pass. The offense usually revolves around looking to take it to the basket and kick it out to the three point line then move it around the three point line looking for the open shot and if the shot isn't there, drive and kick out again and look for the open shot.
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Yes he is.
He reminded us of this last night.
Just gotta stay the course with this team...it is all coming together.
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Before tonight Jaylen was 8th on the team in touches. Could be a reason he has struggled after being a #2 option last year.
This is what I've been saying and why I don't like Brown starting. He is a better player when he has the ball more and he just isn't going to have many nights where he is getting the ball a lot in the starting unit.
It's a bit counter-intuitive, considering Brown is probably our 6-7 best playmaker (not a knock on him), but it makes sense.
For example, I think Brown could be every bit as good as Wiggins offensively with a higher usage rate. But I also think that Wiggins would struggle in Jaylen's role.
Horford may be good with picking his spots, but that comes with experience and IQ. Brown may just need more reps.
I don't see Brown similar to Horford at all. Horford has always been very good at picking his spots and has never needed the ball to get his. He obviously has gotten better with experience, but I just don't think Brown is that type of game. Brown has always been at his best when he gets lots of touches with a higher usage. Some players just need the ball to really be successful and that seems like Brown's game to me.
Thwe touches and shots thing is a bit of a chicken and an egg scenario. Maybe he struggled because he didn't get touches, or maybe he took less shots and was played less minutes because he was struggling. I tend to believe it was the latter. Typically when Brown starts off 0-3 or 0-4 quickly he takes 8 or nine shots a game. When he starts 2/3 or 3/3 he gets more like 13-14. Personally I think he is just fine in an off ball role. Great cutter, great in transition, great spot up shooter and kills mismatches is pretty much what you want in that role. That being said I wouldnt mind him getting some more ball handling chances. There was a play last night where he had the ball at the three point line, dribbled past his man and got all the way to the rim. Missed the lay up but still, he has some ability to create and we could use someone who can get to the rim and get fouls.
Bottom line is Jaylen will be fine, has had a rough start but I see no reason to change anything yet.
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Good to see him knocking down shots last night.
With this team, he should be watching film on JJ Redick, Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton. Jaylen is more athletic and more purely talented than any of them but with his lack of skill as a playmaker and the presence of so many other playmakers on the team, I think Jaylen would find a lot of success becoming a master cutter off the ball.
That's hard to do when so many of Stevens offensive sets have Jaylen sitting in the corner waiting for a kick out three pointer. Watch Stevens sets. He usually has two players sitting in each corner. There just isn't a lot of running around off picks looking to lose your man and cut to the basket looking for a pass. The offense usually revolves around looking to take it to the basket and kick it out to the three point line then move it around the three point line looking for the open shot and if the shot isn't there, drive and kick out again and look for the open shot.
There is some of that, for sure. But on this team any of the starters can be that man in the corner. Literally any of them. And Jaylen can be involved in the primary action.
Last night, Brad set up something like a three-man weave after the ball came over halfcourt, with the PG, the center, and a swing/wing involved at the top of the key. Sets with Tatum, Rosier, and Theis - a pick, a handoff option, and second pick/handoff option, then a drive and kick option. Jaylen can be in that mix. There are often two-man games above the break off to one side, with another two- or three-man action off the ball. Sometimes Jaylen is fed in the post - and there are definitely guards he can get very good shots off from the post. I think there are a lot of ways to use him as more than a sniper. I also think he needs to get at least a few shots each game in the open floor on a fastbreak. He can be better finishing but he's already pretty good.
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Jayen plays much better when the pace of the game is quick up and down basketball. When he gets in the open court attacking the rim he's at his best. His defense even gets better.
When the game slows, he kind of gets lost and he begins looking lost because he hasn't quite yet figured it out in a deliberate halfcourt game.
This entire team plays better at a fast pace where the bench comes more and more into play. The way this team is constructed, with the depth we have...fast pace basketball may be the key.
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Jaylen functions best in the half court when the ball is moving and he takes hand-offs around the top of the key. He turns the corner and once he has his shoulder partially past a defender he is very good.
He isn't very good at squaring up defenders and beating them off the dribble, and he often gets ignored in the corner. He's very big and very fast for a two-guard and he could score a lot more on cuts, but we don't have the passers. I see him open on cuts a lot and they don't get him the ball.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned was just how spectacular the defense was on Blake Griffin last night. Morris was great too, but Jaylen just destroyed Griffin when he covered him straight up.
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Jaylen functions best in the half court when the ball is moving and he takes hand-offs around the top of the key. He turns the corner and once he has his shoulder partially past a defender he is very good.
He isn't very good at squaring up defenders and beating them off the dribble, and he often gets ignored in the corner. He's very big and very fast for a two-guard and he could score a lot more on cuts, but we don't have the passers. I see him open on cuts a lot and they don't get him the ball.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned was just how spectacular the defense was on Blake Griffin last night. Morris was great too, but Jaylen just destroyed Griffin when he covered him straight up.
I could easily see Jaylen being 1st team All-Defense this year.
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Jaylen Brown says his sore right foot is "sort of like a plantar (fascia)" injury. He says the pain began to surface about a week ago. He's questionable for tonight.
https://twitter.com/marc_damico/status/1058030034521337857?s=21
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Jaylen Brown says his sore right foot is "sort of like a plantar (fascia)" injury. He says the pain began to surface about a week ago. He's questionable for tonight.
https://twitter.com/marc_damico/status/1058030034521337857?s=21
Just give him the night off.
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Celtics got some tough games coming up but we need Brown in March and April, not November so let him off a couple of weeks to get it fully healed..those type of injuries can last awhile
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Celtics got some tough games coming up but we need Brown in March and April, not November so let him off a couple of weeks to get it fully healed..those type of injuries can last awhile
Exactly. Should have plenty of weapons to still be favored in almost any game we play.
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JB is a model Celtic, and our youngest to score 30 in a playoff game.
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Still just 10 games, but Brown is worse basically across the board from what he did last year.
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Brown has been the biggest disappointment this early season
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Brown showed us the kind of player he is last season and he still has room to improve at only 22. He is still a very young player. The league is on to him now so things are going to be a little tougher. He needs to adjust and I suspect he will. I remain very high on Jaylen Brown.
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He might be gone soon. Someone will be thats for sure, especially If Ainge could bring in a game changing big man.
This team has too many scoring guys. A sacrifice will be made.
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Still just 10 games, but Brown is worse basically across the board from what he did last year.
So is most everyone else except Morris.
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Brown has been the biggest disappointment this early season
Tatum is a close second. He is trying to play like Kobe and that is not his game
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Brown has been the biggest disappointment this early season
Brown would be a perfect 6th man
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I think he looks good...not worried at all. over time his finishing will improve and it's not horrible. Love him for his defense and still happy with his surprisingly good three point range.
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His numbers are still down overall, but hes been better the last four games or so. Starting to turn it around.
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When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)
Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.
Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.
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With Irving out Brown had a real chance to step up and he was awful. At least Tatum rise to the occasion so the game wasn't a total loss
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It's about whole team. I don't know what is it about, but it's only Irving that is hot. Just can't recognize Tatum, Brown and Rozier. They obviously took some days/weeks off.
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When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)
Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.
Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.
Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots
It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed
No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses
I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't
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When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)
Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.
Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.
Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots
It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed
No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses
I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't
Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.
It was ECF g6 all over again when Brown was trying to lead the Celtics to a win with just one other playing well and Tatum playing awful.
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When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)
Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.
Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.
Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots
It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed
No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses
I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't
Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.
It was ECF g6 all over again when Brown was trying to lead the Celtics to a win with just one other playing well and Tatum playing awful.
Yeah, trying to make generalisations based off of one game is a very dangerous game to play. That being said, Jaylen's inability to hit from distance has been very disappointing (as has JT's).
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Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots
It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed
It is clear you don't watch every game see below in quotes.
Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.
I was thinking the same thing...
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
And Brown's defense has been spectacular while Tatum's has been awful. And saying Brown hasn't been trying is very absurd
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
You post Brown’s splits to show how bad he’s been. Then you say Tatun’s Splits are even worse but at least he’s “trying”. They are both off to rocky starts. If anything Tatum sometimes trying too hard. He is making more bad decisions on the court than Brown. Both of them are pressing for sure, explaining some of the early season regression.
I think our slow start is partly attributable to reworking chemistry, and partly to exaggerating how good our team was last year. We barely escaped first round. Had we not, expectations for this season would be more realistic.
I warned to watch out for Toronto before season started. Kawhi has been superlative. But even when he sits they continue to dominate. Every player has a specific role which he excels at. Brad’s positionless basketball is not what they play.
Maybe the lost feeling you describe Jaylen having is a result of this style.
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
You post Brown’s splits to show how bad he’s been. Then you say Tatun’s Splits are even worse but at least he’s “trying”. They are both off to rocky starts. If anything Tatum sometimes trying too hard. He is making more bad decisions on the court than Brown. Both of them are pressing for sure, explaining some of the early season regression.
I think our slow start is partly attributable to reworking chemistry, and partly to exaggerating how good our team was last year. We barely escaped first round. Had we not, expectations for this season would be more realistic.
I warned to watch out for Toronto before season started. Kawhi has been superlative. But even when he sits they continue to dominate. Every player has a specific role which he excels at. Brad’s positionless basketball is not what they play.
Maybe the lost feeling you describe Jaylen having is a result of this style.
I never said Tatum has been even worse than Brown, I said Tatum was worse then last year (shooting wise), but he has absolutely been better than Brown in that department this year. Tatum is actually better than he was last year in several key areas, which isn't true of Brown. Brown is down across the board
Brown has been awful. Of the regular rotation, he has by far both the worst ORTG and the worst DRTG. His ORTG is 11 points worse than Hayward (who is 2nd worst of the regular rotation). He is the only member on the C's with a negative offensive win share and only Baynes among the regular rotation has less defensive win shares (of course Baynes has played in 2 less games). Overall win shares per 48, only Yabu is worse (he is about 3 times worse than Wanamaker). Hayward who is the next lowest rotation player has nearly 7 times more win share per 48 than Brown. He has the worst TS% on the team (well yabu is worse, but that is it).
Brown has been BY FAR the worst Celtic this year. It isn't close. He has been terrible across the board.
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
And Brown's defense has been spectacular while Tatum's has been awful. And saying Brown hasn't been trying is very absurd
Spectacular? None of the metrics show this at all. In fact they show the opposite, which matches my eye test. Brown has been awful on both ends of the floor. He has been better on defense then offense, but spectacular he has not been. Brown gets lost out there. He isn't engaging on the boards, and hasn't been working on offense except for a short burst here or there. He is completely and utterly lost on both ends of the floor. So that is what I meant by trying. He doesn't have that Smart dog in him, where no matter what you know you are getting maximum effort. Tatum has slipped up in that regard on occasion as well, but by and large, Tatum puts forth the effort, which is why his rebounds are up, his assists are up, his shot attempts are up (despite having to share the load more), etc. Tatum is in a shooting slump, which I have confidence he will snap out of, Brown has just been bad, lost, etc., which I have no idea if he will snap out of because I've watched him go through stretches like this since he was on the C's.
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
You post Brown’s splits to show how bad he’s been. Then you say Tatun’s Splits are even worse but at least he’s “trying”. They are both off to rocky starts. If anything Tatum sometimes trying too hard. He is making more bad decisions on the court than Brown. Both of them are pressing for sure, explaining some of the early season regression.
I think our slow start is partly attributable to reworking chemistry, and partly to exaggerating how good our team was last year. We barely escaped first round. Had we not, expectations for this season would be more realistic.
I warned to watch out for Toronto before season started. Kawhi has been superlative. But even when he sits they continue to dominate. Every player has a specific role which he excels at. Brad’s positionless basketball is not what they play.
Maybe the lost feeling you describe Jaylen having is a result of this style.
I never said Tatum has been even worse than Brown, I said Tatum was worse then last year (shooting wise), but he has absolutely been better than Brown in that department this year. Tatum is actually better than he was last year in several key areas, which isn't true of Brown. Brown is down across the board
Brown has been awful. Of the regular rotation, he has by far both the worst ORTG and the worst DRTG. His ORTG is 11 points worse than Hayward (who is 2nd worst of the regular rotation). He is the only member on the C's with a negative offensive win share and only Baynes among the regular rotation has less defensive win shares (of course Baynes has played in 2 less games). Overall win shares per 48, only Yabu is worse (he is about 3 times worse than Wanamaker). Hayward who is the next lowest rotation player has nearly 7 times more win share per 48 than Brown. He has the worst TS% on the team (well yabu is worse, but that is it).
Brown has been BY FAR the worst Celtic this year. It isn't close. He has been terrible across the board.
You posted similar doomsday predictions about Rozier less than a year ago as I recall. You over-rely on statistical evidence and twist it into your story. Sometimes your story is right. Sometimes it’s wrong. Here I think it is too early to tell. But your bashing of Brown is a bit much. Do you watch all the games? Just curious.
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When you look closely at it, Brown was pretty darn good when he was counted on to score in the playoffs last year. He and Tatum were counted on to carry a good sized load and both did a nice job of it. (Because everyone else was injured.)
Now we get back the 2 players from injury. Both players are veteran NBA scorers who have had the benefit of years in the league. We now tell the kids to be complementary players while playing beside these same 2 veteran scorers.
Both kids have never been just complementary players in their entire basketball lives. Not in high school or college. Both are too respectful to step on anyone's toes, and that may be the problem.
Tonight Brown score 9 points on 17 shots(most of the team) and Tatum 21pt on 14 shots
It's ECF g7 all over again, he shrinks when mostly needed while Tatum performed
No more "he sucks because he is asked to play complementary" excuses
I don't mind talking big, only if you can back it up, so far he doesn't
Funny because just the game before Brown was putting up 17 2nd half points while Tatum was benched for most of the 2nd half because he sucked so bad.
It was ECF g6 all over again when Brown was trying to lead the Celtics to a win with just one other playing well and Tatum playing awful.
Tatum was in a terrible shooting slump in the Suns game, but he still fought and contribute to a team high 15+ , Brown scored 17 only because Suns paint defense is one of the worst, we all see what happened when they faced real defense last night
You can have slumps even if you'are a star but you can't shrink in the biggest games like the elimination game, again Tatum performed in the biggest stage while Brown is no where to be find
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Tatum hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire, but Brown has been much worse this year.
These are Brown's splits
41.9% 2PT, 27.7% 3PT, 62.1% FT, 11.7 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.4 apg, 0.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 1.2 tpg, 2.7 fpg
Those are all significantly worse then last year and while 11 games isn't a season, it is starting to be a large enough sample size that concern should be setting in for everyone.
While Tatum's shooting splits are worse, he is actually scoring more, rebounding more, and getting more assists then he was last year. So he is at least being active and trying. I have far more confidence that Tatum's shot is going to fall then I do in Brown turning it around. Brown just looks lost and out of place out there most of the time.
And Brown's defense has been spectacular while Tatum's has been awful. And saying Brown hasn't been trying is very absurd
Spectacular? None of the metrics show this at all. In fact they show the opposite, which matches my eye test. Brown has been awful on both ends of the floor. He has been better on defense then offense, but spectacular he has not been. Brown gets lost out there. He isn't engaging on the boards, and hasn't been working on offense except for a short burst here or there. He is completely and utterly lost on both ends of the floor. So that is what I meant by trying. He doesn't have that Smart dog in him, where no matter what you know you are getting maximum effort. Tatum has slipped up in that regard on occasion as well, but by and large, Tatum puts forth the effort, which is why his rebounds are up, his assists are up, his shot attempts are up (despite having to share the load more), etc. Tatum is in a shooting slump, which I have confidence he will snap out of, Brown has just been bad, lost, etc., which I have no idea if he will snap out of because I've watched him go through stretches like this since he was on the C's.
This exactly , Brown has improved his one on one defense and shooting but that's almost the only thing to talk about so far, he looks lost out there
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The idea that Brown isn't trying because he isn't getting stats is patently absurd. Who was it that shut down the Greek Freak almost all game? Who was shutting down Booker in the first half until he was put on TJ Warren because others were getting lit up by Warren? Who shut down Mitchell in the first half until he was switched to Ingles for most of the second half? Who is always given the job to defend the best wing defender on the opposition causing his defensive rating to be higher? And who is usually given the easiest player to guard on the opposition? I will give you a hint, it's not the same guy that is the answer to all the other questions.
And as for his passing did you see that bounce pass down most of the length of the court to a wide open Hayward last night? What about all the excellent passes out to the perimeter when he drives and is cut off? Brown almost never is caught mid air not knowing what to do anymore. Brown's BBIQ is very good. He makes smarter plays year in and year out. And his handle is way better than his rookie year.
And Brown has been used mostly as a 4th or 5th option with the starters so of course his shots and scoring are down. And if Tatum is in a slump, then so is Brown. But at least Brown is taking mostly good shots. Tatum is passing up open threes to go iso and take awful mid range jumpers. If the ball sticks on any of the starting fives hands it's Tatum's so he can do his iso thing.
I have high hopes for both but neither is playing good overall basketball and one isn't really playing much better than the other.
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This exactly , Brown has improved his one on one defense and shooting but that's almost the only thing to talk about so far, he looks lost out there
I like how folks ignore the good games he has had, and only see the bad. Totally unfair to Brown. The whole team looks lost at points right now.
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This exactly , Brown has improved his one on one defense and shooting but that's almost the only thing to talk about so far, he looks lost out there
I like how folks ignore the good games he has had, and only see the bad. Totally unfair to Brown. The whole team looks lost at points right now.
No one has been unfair on Brown, just being objective, other players is getting their share of blame, Brown can't be the exception
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The idea that Brown isn't trying because he isn't getting stats is patently absurd. Who was it that shut down the Greek Freak almost all game? Who was shutting down Booker in the first half until he was put on TJ Warren because others were getting lit up by Warren? Who shut down Mitchell in the first half until he was switched to Ingles for most of the second half? Who is always given the job to defend the best wing defender on the opposition causing his defensive rating to be higher? And who is usually given the easiest player to guard on the opposition? I will give you a hint, it's not the same guy that is the answer to all the other questions.
And as for his passing did you see that bounce pass down most of the length of the court to a wide open Hayward last night? What about all the excellent passes out to the perimeter when he drives and is cut off? Brown almost never is caught mid air not knowing what to do anymore. Brown's BBIQ is very good. He makes smarter plays year in and year out. And his handle is way better than his rookie year.
And Brown has been used mostly as a 4th or 5th option with the starters so of course his shots and scoring are down. And if Tatum is in a slump, then so is Brown. But at least Brown is taking mostly good shots. Tatum is passing up open threes to go iso and take awful mid range jumpers. If the ball sticks on any of the starting fives hands it's Tatum's so he can do his iso thing.
I have high hopes for both but neither is playing good overall basketball and one isn't really playing much better than the other.
People watch games and there is a reason people don't say things like
''This is Brown's team now and Kyrie is in Brown's shadow'' or ''Is Tatum still a Celtic?''
I know you like Brown, we all do, but saying Brown has been playing likely as good as Tatum is just absurd
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The idea that Brown isn't trying because he isn't getting stats is patently absurd. Who was it that shut down the Greek Freak almost all game? Who was shutting down Booker in the first half until he was put on TJ Warren because others were getting lit up by Warren? Who shut down Mitchell in the first half until he was switched to Ingles for most of the second half? Who is always given the job to defend the best wing defender on the opposition causing his defensive rating to be higher? And who is usually given the easiest player to guard on the opposition? I will give you a hint, it's not the same guy that is the answer to all the other questions.
And as for his passing did you see that bounce pass down most of the length of the court to a wide open Hayward last night? What about all the excellent passes out to the perimeter when he drives and is cut off? Brown almost never is caught mid air not knowing what to do anymore. Brown's BBIQ is very good. He makes smarter plays year in and year out. And his handle is way better than his rookie year.
And Brown has been used mostly as a 4th or 5th option with the starters so of course his shots and scoring are down. And if Tatum is in a slump, then so is Brown. But at least Brown is taking mostly good shots. Tatum is passing up open threes to go iso and take awful mid range jumpers. If the ball sticks on any of the starting fives hands it's Tatum's so he can do his iso thing.
I have high hopes for both but neither is playing good overall basketball and one isn't really playing much better than the other.
People watch games and there is a reason people don't say things like
''This is Brown's team now and Kyrie is in Brown's shadow'' or ''Is Tatum still a Celtic?''
I know you like Brown, we all do, but saying Brown has been playing likely as good as Tatum is just absurd
I said overall game. Given the massive difference in how they play defense, Brown's defensive superiority makes up for Tatum's offensive superiority. Therefore, they are playing equally bad. And if you look at the twos last six games, their offensive contributions have been about the same. Brown started off horrid but has been getting progressively better since game 6.
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Does anybody remember Lebron’s first season with the Heat? Everybody was tentative with their roles, including Lebron and Wade. Too much deference to others.
That’s what we’re seeing here. Either Kyrie or Hayward needs to step up as the alpha.
agree
Not having "THE " leader , so everybody can fall i to line is a bad deal. Everybody is watching and waiting to see what happens.
Basically they have had awful ON CoURT leadership. Every game i watch I see no real leader .....like IT used to stick his chest out and take charge .
Al is like a wise old elder on the team .....he is someone to look up to and get advise from ....but he isn't a impact leader . On occassion he gets emotional and wins a game.
The team looks lost on the court , like they aren 't sure what they want to do.
I miss that kid they let go to turkey . He played a great style to set up star players . Rozier just does!'t have true point guard mentality. He wants to be a 2
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Ya I don't know about the effort argument. To me he looks like he is trying. He still locks down quite a bit on defense, and he attacks the basket more than anybody on the team. So I'm not sure why people seem to think his effort is a problem, I'd disagree pretty strongly with that. I also don't think its fair to say hes regressed across the board. I think both his ball handling and passing are better than last year for example, he certainly does a better job looking for people off dribble penetration or in transition. He is taking a 5% less of his shots at the rim and about 5% more in the mid range, but that looks like its changing in recent games.
I think a large part of the problem is that right now pretty much nothing is going in for him. He is shooting 36.8 from the field and 27.7 from three. Anybody who shoots like that is gonna look awful. I also think those numbers will improve, mostly because its almost impossible to be that bad on a large enough sample size unless you are Marcus Smart, but also because Jaylen has shown he can hit at rim shots (career 62%) and three pointers (career 37%) at a a good clip, he is still taking a lot of those shots, and those averages from him are improvable even from his career marks. Its not like his looks have been cosnistently terrible. He still gets by his man a lot, he seems to have improved his dribble driving, he generates good separation, then he misses. I think those misses are more likely than not gonna start falling. Even his threes are often pretty open, he just keeps missing. Which is also a problem that has plagued the team as a whole, we miss a lot of open shots.
In short, Jaylen has to start making shots. I think he will.
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Biggest issue I still see with Jaylen is his handle (and by extension his hands) is below average. What concerns me a little is that's one thing I'm not sure you can improve with practice. It might get in the way of him ever being as good as many here think he can be.
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1.
I don't really know if the problem is too much defer to others, it looks like they just can't make
wide open 3s and easy layups, maybe it's because they are focusing on new teammates/schemes, either way it shouldn't last forever
2.
As above i'm not worried about Brown's shot, but more about his BBIQ to hinder his overall progress, in the Suns game he lost two not difficult rebound bounced to him and get blocked wide open under the basket, that kind of thing is...just not acceptable
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Agree, Playdream the deferring to each other should not be affecting our shots. TP
Two things I would like to see us do.
1) Our shooting needs to improve
2) Quit acting like we are GS and dogging it thinking we can turn it on when we want too and play the whole game
This is not all on Brown. People who think that are myopic in their basketball IQ. Scapegoating is what someone does when they want to find someone to blame rather than fix the problem
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1.
I don't really know if the problem is too much defer to others, it looks like they just can't make
wide open 3s and easy layups, maybe it's because they are focusing on new teammates/schemes, either way it shouldn't last forever
2.
As above i'm not worried about Brown's shot, but more about his BBIQ to hinder his overall progress, in the Suns game he lost two not difficult rebound bounced to him and get blocked wide open under the basket, that kind of thing is...just not acceptable
Celtics players not named Kyrie/Morris are all shooting below their career averages. I would have to think at some point that will come back to the median.
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Wouldnt sign him long term likke they did with Smart
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
I am reluctant to send Jaylen to the bench because his defense has been so good. He is a guy who can impact a game without scoring and Boston's starting lineup needs more of that. Not less. He is also someone who will run the floor hard for layups and drive to the basket in the halfcourt. Those are things I want to see more of from the team.
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
I am reluctant to send Jaylen to the bench because his defense has been so good. He is a guy who can impact a game without scoring and Boston's starting lineup needs more of that. Not less. He is also someone who will run the floor hard for layups and drive to the basket in the halfcourt. Those are things I want to see more of from the team.
Sure, but Boston is losing games because the offense is so bad and the opposing PG is having field days. Brown is a big part of the former and has no effect on the latter.
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
Been with you on this for a while
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
Been with you on this for a while
2 games in and you will want Smart back to the bench as well.
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
Been with you on this for a while
2 games in and you will want Smart back to the bench as well.
Didn’t know you could tell the future. He’d add more offensively and is a better team defender and defends guards better, plus he doesn’t disengage like JB does
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
Been with you on this for a while
2 games in and you will want Smart back to the bench as well.
Didn’t know you could tell the future. He’d add more offensively and is a better team defender and defends guards better, plus he doesn’t disengage like JB does
Marcus doesn't need to disengage to be terrible. He is fully engaged when he turns it over and shoots ridiculous jumpers.
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
Been with you on this for a while
2 games in and you will want Smart back to the bench as well.
Didn’t know you could tell the future. He’d add more offensively and is a better team defender and defends guards better, plus he doesn’t disengage like JB does
Marcus doesn't need to disengage to be terrible. He is fully engaged when he turns it over and shoots ridiculous jumpers.
Which definitely isn’t a feature of Brown’s offence ::)
At least Smart is a strong passer and ball-handler, none of which can be said about JB
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Stevens moved the wrong guy to the bench. Brown has no business starting and hasn't all season long. And frankly, Baynes hasn't been any better. It is time to go small with Irving, Smart, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford.
Been with you on this for a while
2 games in and you will want Smart back to the bench as well.
Didn’t know you could tell the future. He’d add more offensively and is a better team defender and defends guards better, plus he doesn’t disengage like JB does
Marcus doesn't need to disengage to be terrible. He is fully engaged when he turns it over and shoots ridiculous jumpers.
Which definitely isn’t a feature of Brown’s offence ::)
At least Smart is a strong passer and ball-handler, none of which can be said about JB
Smart can also defend most opposing point guards.
Brown is much better suited as a SF. That is his best position. He also needs the ball to be most effective. He gets those things if he comes off the bench