NBA 2019-2020 season thread

[Moranis]

Philly created another monster with Al's overpay.

Embiid out he should be playing like a fiend ....20/12 for that money at least.

Al has never come close to 12 rebounds a game.  EVER.  He has never come close to 20 points per game in his career either.  Didn't stop Boston from paying him even more money than the Sixers did (he was obviously closer to his prime then).  Horford's production has ticked up a fair amount since Embiid went down. 

[Moranis]

Zach Lowe just had Young in over Tatum on his all-star team. I"m so very mad about him getting in over Tatum/Brown even when it hasn't happened yet. (and might not happen given coaches vote reserves)

I'd be somewhat less mad about Beal, and even more mad about Lavine. 

Because when you can get the offensive engine of the second worst offense in the league in the all-star game you have to do it. 

Hard to be mad when Young is so statistically brilliant.  I mean 29.2 p, 8.6 a, 4.7 r, 1.2 s with a TS% of 59.4.  Obviously a sieve on defense, but offense is just so much more important and Young is absolutely a brilliant offensive player.

I really don't understand this take when you've been pumping up Tatum due to his excellence in the +/- family of metrics, they mostly agree that offence isn't that much more valuable than defence (it's more valuable than defence, but the gap is like 6 points to 5 according to RAPM), ntm that a big argument for Tatum being an All-Star calibre wing this season is his incredible defensive +/- stats in a free safety role.

But yes I think Young is good enough to make the All-Star team, he's one of the best non MVP PGs on offence right now imo (strong box and non-box stats to go along with positive stuff from the eye test) and that helps him grade out as an All-Star (albeit borderline due to how much his defence sucks) in my eyes.

Offense is far more important than defense.  I'd say at least 60/40 if not more like 70/30.  It is why guys like Curry, Harden, Irving, IT4 (in Boston), etc. can be MVP caliber players despite being atrocious on defense.  That isn't to say defense isn't important, but I'm taking the offensive beast 10 out of 10 times over the defensive beast (assuming near equal talent levels and no clearly better roster fit). 

[PhoSita]

Philly created another monster with Al's overpay.

Embiid out he should be playing like a fiend ....20/12 for that money at least.

I'll never understand why people think that production is supposed to match payment.

As though Horford is gonna be like, well since they paid me all this money I better go out and grab double digit rebounds, even though that's never been my game.

The Sixers chose to pay Horford what they paid him based on a decade of evidence of what kind of player Horford is.

[Rondo9]

Somebody:

Past offensive only all-stars on bad teams usually at least had their teams scoring at a good rate overall. Trae isn't doing that.

James Harden style shot selection and ball dominance (he is a willing passer but he absolutely dominates the ball in a massive way), but without the team success on offense or any winning isn't something I want to see rewarded with all-star status.

Everyone responds to that argument, well if he had help he'd have more team success, somewhat less numbers, etc, etc... Okay? Lets actually see it?

All of this is aggravated by my disdain about him screaming at the FO/Coaches to get more help as a second year player on a young team. Combine that with his utter indifference to defense, he's always going to be a liability but his effort is not there. You're the leader of the team and setting the tone of not trying and yelling your teammates aren't any good in a public place is crappy leadership.

Trae is a willing passer, not his fault his teammates can稚 hit anything.

[Fierce1]

Philly created another monster with Al's overpay.

Embiid out he should be playing like a fiend ....20/12 for that money at least.

I'll never understand why people think that production is supposed to match payment.

As though Horford is gonna be like, well since they paid me all this money I better go out and grab double digit rebounds, even though that's never been my game.

The Sixers chose to pay Horford what they paid him based on a decade of evidence of what kind of player Horford is.

In other words, the Sixers wasted a lot of money.
 

[celticsclay]

Philly created another monster with Al's overpay.

Embiid out he should be playing like a fiend ....20/12 for that money at least.

I'll never understand why people think that production is supposed to match payment.

As though Horford is gonna be like, well since they paid me all this money I better go out and grab double digit rebounds, even though that's never been my game.

The Sixers chose to pay Horford what they paid him based on a decade of evidence of what kind of player Horford is.

Yes, but the 76ers are not getting how Al has performed for the last decade either. He is shooting 31% from 3 (has been between 34-43% since he started shooting them his last year in Atlanta). He is shooting 45% from field after shooting 53% last year. His advanced metrics are just about all noticeably down. He has looked noticeably slower on defense with some 76ers fans calling him a traffic cone. While maybe there is expected to be some slippage given his age, it has to be concerning how washed he looks right now. I would be concerned if he was playing this way on the Celtics. On top of that, the jumbo lineup with Horford Simmons Harris and Embiid has been horrifically clunky and even worse, Al already complained about his role on the team to the media.
I actually think there is a reasonable chance he gets traded before deadline. Brand is someone that has seemed very impatient.

[Somebody]

Somebody:

Past offensive only all-stars on bad teams usually at least had their teams scoring at a good rate overall. Trae isn't doing that.

James Harden style shot selection and ball dominance (he is a willing passer but he absolutely dominates the ball in a massive way), but without the team success on offense or any winning isn't something I want to see rewarded with all-star status.

Everyone responds to that argument, well if he had help he'd have more team success, somewhat less numbers, etc, etc... Okay? Lets actually see it?

All of this is aggravated by my disdain about him screaming at the FO/Coaches to get more help as a second year player on a young team. Combine that with his utter indifference to defense, he's always going to be a liability but his effort is not there. You're the leader of the team and setting the tone of not trying and yelling your teammates aren't any good in a public place is crappy leadership.

Fair points, I think he's been doing the best he can in an absolute crap situation but we'll agree to disagree I guess. I do agree with you that his leadership has been sketchy so far, him calling out everyone in the organisation was not a good look.

[PhoSita]

Yes, but the 76ers are not getting how Al has performed for the last decade either.

Well, Al has been a center basically his whole career, except I guess when he played beside Zaza in Atlanta.

So again, whose fault is it that he's playing out of position and doing it badly?

[Fafnir]

Yes, but the 76ers are not getting how Al has performed for the last decade either.

Well, Al has been a center basically his whole career, except I guess when he played beside Zaza in Atlanta.

So again, whose fault is it that he's playing out of position and doing it badly?

Yeah I liked how one NBA commentator put it.

"The 76ers starting line up to begin the season had 3 centers on the floor on offense, why is everyone so confused it looks clunky and doesn't score well?"

If the C's had Williams, Kanter, Theis on the floor at the same time do you think the offense would work?

[Who]

I thought Trae was right to call out the Hawks organization. Players need to speak up when their organization is crapping their bed. Put pressure on the organization to right the ship.

There is a time and place for such actions -- there are times when it is wrong to do so but there are also times when it is right -- and I think Trae was right in this instance to call out his organization.

I liked it. Good leadership.

[celticsclay]

Yes, but the 76ers are not getting how Al has performed for the last decade either.

Well, Al has been a center basically his whole career, except I guess when he played beside Zaza in Atlanta.

So again, whose fault is it that he's playing out of position and doing it badly?

You are stretching pretty hard here Phosita. He has played the close to the last 10 games without Embid and is still shooting 44% from field and 26% from 3 in those games. He is also visibly slowing down on defense. Is he being done a disservice by playing out of position at times? Sure, but you can't just gloss over all his numbers because of that.

[Who]

Horford's numbers were always going to take a hit when he went to Philly. The offense ran through him in Boston and Atlanta. Not as a scorer but as a facilitator. A high post facilitator.

He doesn't have that same role in Philadelphia and never was going to have that role because Philly want the ball to run through Embiid who is their most talented player. There isn't room for Horford to be the high post facilitator while also getting Embiid (post scorer) the touches he deserves.

Then you add Ben Simmons who needs touches in the mid post (elbows) and low post as a facilitator. More touches gone. Add in Simmons' inability to shoot which reduces his PnR threat and those hand-off passes across the perimeter both of which Horford was a major threat off which he no longer gets in Philly.

Then throw in Tobias Harris as a 20ppg scorer alongside Simmons and Embiid and you have Horford as a peripheral figure in Philly's offense.

His shooting numbers have dropped because he is not as involved in the offense. He doesn't the touch the ball as much. He is not put in his most dangerous situations. He is being asked to be more of a spot up player. He is more stagnant and uninvolved.

None of this is his fault. He deserves no criticism for this.

Everyone knew the fit offensively wasn't good and that there were going to be problems. They did it anyway because Horford would make Philly an excellent defensive team (which has happened - success) + give them capable/good lineups while Embiid is on the bench resting instead of falling apart as they did in the playoffs last season whenever Embiid wasn't on the floor (which also has succeeded) + to make them a dominant rebounding team (which has also happened - more success - I believe they were leading the league in rebounding differential when Embiid was healthy).

Horford has done a good job there. He doesn't get credit for it because his contributions are more team based than individual based. So he gets overlooked a lot.

[nickagneta]

I wonder when Trae started calling out the other players and the front office if the front office wasn't thinking.:

"You know, we coulda had Luka Doncic here not complaining or calling us out!" as they shake their heads and roll their eyes towards the ceiling.

[PhoSita]

Yes, but the 76ers are not getting how Al has performed for the last decade either.

Well, Al has been a center basically his whole career, except I guess when he played beside Zaza in Atlanta.

So again, whose fault is it that he's playing out of position and doing it badly?

You are stretching pretty hard here Phosita. He has played the close to the last 10 games without Embid and is still shooting 44% from field and 26% from 3 in those games. He is also visibly slowing down on defense. Is he being done a disservice by playing out of position at times? Sure, but you can't just gloss over all his numbers because of that.

I won't argue with you about whether Al is getting long in the tooth and if his game is suffering as a result.  I'm sure that it is.  Admittedly I do not watch the Sixers very much because I don't like them or the way they play.

With that said, Al was still a really valuable and efficient player his last year in Boston, and the main difference between last year and this year for Al is the team that he's on, i.e. the players that are around him.

If Al were playing from the start of this season on a team that used him correctly (i.e. as a point center with players who can shoot around him), I expect his production would be much closer to what it's been.


Now, even if that were the case, the contract might still look pretty bad.  They gave a guy with a lot of miles on him a long term deal that will take him into his late 30s at basically max value.  No matter what, that's probably going to be a bit of an albatross.  If Horford were the missing piece that was going to propel them to a title, that would be worth it.  But that doesn't appear to be the case, and it's not surprising.  Horford is a center and I never expected that he would look good playing alongside Embiid (an oversized center), Simmons (a non-shooting playmaking power forward) and Harris (a stretch 4). 

[PhoSita]

Horford has done a good job there. He doesn't get credit for it because his contributions are more team based than individual based. So he gets overlooked a lot.

This is basically the story of Al's whole career.