Anyone upset about the wasted assets?

[Granath]

Delonte west averaged 10/3/4 in 430+ games over 8 seasons. How much do you really expect from the 24th pick in the draft?!

I was probably bit harsh on him.  But if you look at the actual draft in a redraft he goes in the 21-25 range, so that puts him right about where he went.  So not an underperform, but certainly not an overperform.  Just for some facts, he was 24th in games played, 21st in winshares (and one of the guys ahead of him here was behind him in games), etc.  Plus, he was such a headcase and lockerroom concern, especially at the end.  It is a real shame he had a mental illness because he certainly could have had a much better/longer career.

A bit "harsh"? No, in your rush to try to prove a point that you simply can't prove you decided to play fast and loose with the facts. And you're doing it again. D West equaled or exceeded his draft position in games, points, assists, rebounds, VORP and win shares. If that does not "over-perform" his draft position then nothing does.

It's your tendency to omit inconvenient facts and/or make blatant misrepresentations of facts that makes it difficulty to take your positions seriously.

[Granath]

Smart would not go 4th. 

Wiggins, Parker, and Gordon all still go ahead of him.  Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine all likely go ahead of him.  Then depending on the team Randle, Embiid, Saric, Exum, Hood, Clarkson, Capela  might.

Oh, this is fun.

"Wiggins, Parker, and Gordon all still go ahead of him.  Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine all likely go ahead of him."

So since you could only name three definite players who would go in front of him (and Gordon is arguable) and the others "likely"go ahead of him, you're in essence stating there is a chance that Smart would go 4th. Then you unequivocally stated he would not go 4th. So which is it?

Now to be fair, I am nitpicking but language is important. I do not think Smart would go 4th. I think he'd go exactly where he was drafted - 6th - but I also believe that Smart's upside is still greater than some of the other guys mentioned. Even if Smart doesn't improve a bit from last season he's still looking at a 10 year career in the NBA in which he plays a significant contribution, which is quite good. If it does - and I believe it will - then the ceiling is quite a bit higher for him than many others.

[Bobshot]

Speaking of "wasted assets", on another note, the new fantasy values for '16 just came out at CDM, and Sullinger has a higher fantasy value than Amir, Olynyk and Zeller. Now, Sully did have conditioning problems, and his playoff collapse didn't figure into his fantasy value--basically points and rebounds--but it does make you wonder. Sully at his best is better than the other three, no matter how many Big Macs he eats.

Fortunately for us, fantasy "value" is completely irrelevant.

Let's just say that it takes out all the personal biases. 

[Moranis]

Delonte west averaged 10/3/4 in 430+ games over 8 seasons. How much do you really expect from the 24th pick in the draft?!

I was probably bit harsh on him.  But if you look at the actual draft in a redraft he goes in the 21-25 range, so that puts him right about where he went.  So not an underperform, but certainly not an overperform.  Just for some facts, he was 24th in games played, 21st in winshares (and one of the guys ahead of him here was behind him in games), etc.  Plus, he was such a headcase and lockerroom concern, especially at the end.  It is a real shame he had a mental illness because he certainly could have had a much better/longer career.

A bit "harsh"? No, in your rush to try to prove a point that you simply can't prove you decided to play fast and loose with the facts. And you're doing it again. D West equaled or exceeded his draft position in games, points, assists, rebounds, VORP and win shares. If that does not "over-perform" his draft position then nothing does.

It's your tendency to omit inconvenient facts and/or make blatant misrepresentations of facts that makes it difficulty to take your positions seriously.

he didn't exceed his draft position in games played.  He was exactly 24th in that one and Josh Childress who would be drafted ahead of him in a redraft was behind him.  West's 1st 3 years were pretty darn good, he then went into a complete and utter tailspin after that and put together only one solid season.  Now sure 4 solid seasons for a 24th pick isn't bad, but that was one of, if not the, deepest drafts ever.  It was loaded with players that would have very strong careers. 

If there was a redraft, West would go 21-25 which is right around where he actually went.  As I said, I was quick to say it was an underperform, but it certainly wasn't an overperform.  He went right around where he should have.

[Moranis]

Smart would not go 4th. 

Wiggins, Parker, and Gordon all still go ahead of him.  Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine all likely go ahead of him.  Then depending on the team Randle, Embiid, Saric, Exum, Hood, Clarkson, Capela  might.

Oh, this is fun.

"Wiggins, Parker, and Gordon all still go ahead of him.  Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine all likely go ahead of him."

So since you could only name three definite players who would go in front of him (and Gordon is arguable) and the others "likely"go ahead of him, you're in essence stating there is a chance that Smart would go 4th. Then you unequivocally stated he would not go 4th. So which is it?

Now to be fair, I am nitpicking but language is important. I do not think Smart would go 4th. I think he'd go exactly where he was drafted - 6th - but I also believe that Smart's upside is still greater than some of the other guys mentioned. Even if Smart doesn't improve a bit from last season he's still looking at a 10 year career in the NBA in which he plays a significant contribution, which is quite good. If it does - and I believe it will - then the ceiling is quite a bit higher for him than many others.

I could have grouped them better, I just kept the 3 ahead of him that went ahead of him originally.  I certainly could have put both Nurkic and Jokic with the other three as I don't think there is a team out there that would take Smart ahead of those two at this point.  The others depend on the team a bit, but I do think all of them would go ahead of Smart.  That is why I said he would go 10th.  I thought that was fairly obvious, but I guess I need to spell things out better for people such as yourself.  I mean if saying I think he would go 10th isn't good enough, I'm not sure what is.

[Granath]

Delonte west averaged 10/3/4 in 430+ games over 8 seasons. How much do you really expect from the 24th pick in the draft?!

I was probably bit harsh on him.  But if you look at the actual draft in a redraft he goes in the 21-25 range, so that puts him right about where he went.  So not an underperform, but certainly not an overperform.  Just for some facts, he was 24th in games played, 21st in winshares (and one of the guys ahead of him here was behind him in games), etc.  Plus, he was such a headcase and lockerroom concern, especially at the end.  It is a real shame he had a mental illness because he certainly could have had a much better/longer career.

A bit "harsh"? No, in your rush to try to prove a point that you simply can't prove you decided to play fast and loose with the facts. And you're doing it again. D West equaled or exceeded his draft position in games, points, assists, rebounds, VORP and win shares. If that does not "over-perform" his draft position then nothing does.

It's your tendency to omit inconvenient facts and/or make blatant misrepresentations of facts that makes it difficulty to take your positions seriously.

he didn't exceed his draft position in games played.  He was exactly 24th in that one and Josh Childress who would be drafted ahead of him in a redraft was behind him.  West's 1st 3 years were pretty darn good, he then went into a complete and utter tailspin after that and put together only one solid season.  Now sure 4 solid seasons for a 24th pick isn't bad, but that was one of, if not the, deepest drafts ever.  It was loaded with players that would have very strong careers. 

If there was a redraft, West would go 21-25 which is right around where he actually went.  As I said, I was quick to say it was an underperform, but it certainly wasn't an overperform.  He went right around where he should have.

By that standard Ronald Murray, Roger Mason, Dan Gadzuric and Rasual Butler were all better than Yao Ming and Matt Barnes is better than Amare'.   

Again, it's tough to take you seriously when you try to prove your point by omitting almost all relevant data. Like thinking that games played is the ultimate metric versus things like points, rebounds, assists, VORP and win shares. Again, that you are desperate to prove a point doesn't make it true and the obvious omission of key data just weakens any argument you have.

That translates to your argument that you think Smart would go 10th in a redraft. It's possible. It's also possible he goes 3rd. Many of the guys you mention are either racking up mediocre statistics for bad teams (Lavine, Payton) or been sidelined due to injury (Nurkic, Embiid). There's not a one of them outside of Wiggins that's been head and shoulders above the rest (that includes Parker). It would come down to what a team values and needs. If you need a scoring SF and can compensate for the lack of defense, you might take Parker. Need a floor general with limited upside? Payton. An athletic, high-flying scorer with a low basketball IQ? LaVine. A big man with upside but who plays below the basket? Nurkic. You want a tough, defensive-minded guy who can win games without the ball in his hands? Then you take Smart, who also happens to be the only one who has made a significant impact on a strong playoff team. And that counts in the NBA regardless of what you may think.

None of those guys have proven to be better than the other yet. On advanced stats Nurkic and Smart are by far and away the best players. It all remains to be seen. But don't try to poo-poo Smart (again by omitting key data) and think the rest of us will believe it. You're again trying to prove a narrative ("Danny is a bad drafter") but you keep reaching for data points that are either inconsequential (JR Giddens), ones you can't prove (Smart) or ones that are outright falsehoods (West).

Note that I'm not trying to change your opinion. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But you're not entitled to your own facts. You're coming up awfully short on those and in the end it's only the facts that really matter.

[Moranis]

Delonte west averaged 10/3/4 in 430+ games over 8 seasons. How much do you really expect from the 24th pick in the draft?!

I was probably bit harsh on him.  But if you look at the actual draft in a redraft he goes in the 21-25 range, so that puts him right about where he went.  So not an underperform, but certainly not an overperform.  Just for some facts, he was 24th in games played, 21st in winshares (and one of the guys ahead of him here was behind him in games), etc.  Plus, he was such a headcase and lockerroom concern, especially at the end.  It is a real shame he had a mental illness because he certainly could have had a much better/longer career.

A bit "harsh"? No, in your rush to try to prove a point that you simply can't prove you decided to play fast and loose with the facts. And you're doing it again. D West equaled or exceeded his draft position in games, points, assists, rebounds, VORP and win shares. If that does not "over-perform" his draft position then nothing does.

It's your tendency to omit inconvenient facts and/or make blatant misrepresentations of facts that makes it difficulty to take your positions seriously.

he didn't exceed his draft position in games played.  He was exactly 24th in that one and Josh Childress who would be drafted ahead of him in a redraft was behind him.  West's 1st 3 years were pretty darn good, he then went into a complete and utter tailspin after that and put together only one solid season.  Now sure 4 solid seasons for a 24th pick isn't bad, but that was one of, if not the, deepest drafts ever.  It was loaded with players that would have very strong careers. 

If there was a redraft, West would go 21-25 which is right around where he actually went.  As I said, I was quick to say it was an underperform, but it certainly wasn't an overperform.  He went right around where he should have.

By that standard Ronald Murray, Roger Mason, Dan Gadzuric and Rasual Butler were all better than Yao Ming and Matt Barnes is better than Amare'.   

Again, it's tough to take you seriously when you try to prove your point by omitting almost all relevant data. Like thinking that games played is the ultimate metric versus things like points, rebounds, assists, VORP and win shares. Again, that you are desperate to prove a point doesn't make it true and the obvious omission of key data just weakens any argument you have.

That translates to your argument that you think Smart would go 10th in a redraft. It's possible. It's also possible he goes 3rd. Many of the guys you mention are either racking up mediocre statistics for bad teams (Lavine, Payton) or been sidelined due to injury (Nurkic, Embiid). There's not a one of them outside of Wiggins that's been head and shoulders above the rest (that includes Parker). It would come down to what a team values and needs. If you need a scoring SF and can compensate for the lack of defense, you might take Parker. Need a floor general with limited upside? Payton. An athletic, high-flying scorer with a low basketball IQ? LaVine. A big man with upside but who plays below the basket? Nurkic. You want a tough, defensive-minded guy who can win games without the ball in his hands? Then you take Smart, who also happens to be the only one who has made a significant impact on a strong playoff team. And that counts in the NBA regardless of what you may think.

None of those guys have proven to be better than the other yet. On advanced stats Nurkic and Smart are by far and away the best players. It all remains to be seen. But don't try to poo-poo Smart (again by omitting key data) and think the rest of us will believe it. You're again trying to prove a narrative ("Danny is a bad drafter") but you keep reaching for data points that are either inconsequential (JR Giddens), ones you can't prove (Smart) or ones that are outright falsehoods (West).

Note that I'm not trying to change your opinion. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But you're not entitled to your own facts. You're coming up awfully short on those and in the end it's only the facts that really matter.

I was just correcting your incorrect information on the games.  Since you were criticizing bits and pieces of my post and then doing so with incorrect information.  I have no issue saying West would go 21-25 in a redraft, that is in the range of where he actually went, which is neither overperforming or underperforming (which I've acknowledged I originally was wrong on).  I have hard time taking anyone seriously that won't put their own assessment on something, but would rather just pick out a statement here or there and then jump to silly conclusions that aren't actually borne out in anything.  If you think games played is why I think West goes in the 21-25 range, then I don't know what to tell you, that is not accurate. 

I firmly believe Smart, based on right now, would go 10th in a redraft.  Behind Wiggins, Parker, Gordon, Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine, Randle, and Hood.  I also think there are teams that would take Embiid, Saric, Clarkson, and maybe Capela ahead of Smart.  There are teams that wouldn't and would take him ahead of Lavine, Randle, and Hood (I think Payton is unlikely though possible), but I wouldn't. 

Smart thus far looks like a defensive role player.  Those guys have solid value of course and often have very long careers, but they aren't worth the 6th pick in the draft either.  The reality is Smart looks terrible on offense.  He is a poor passer, can't hit the broad side of a barn, and has been disappointing as a penetrator.  Maybe he takes the leap this year or maybe he is what he is and has a very nice career as a defensive stopper. 

[spikelovetheCelts]

Delonte west averaged 10/3/4 in 430+ games over 8 seasons. How much do you really expect from the 24th pick in the draft?!

I was probably bit harsh on him.  But if you look at the actual draft in a redraft he goes in the 21-25 range, so that puts him right about where he went.  So not an underperform, but certainly not an overperform.  Just for some facts, he was 24th in games played, 21st in winshares (and one of the guys ahead of him here was behind him in games), etc.  Plus, he was such a headcase and lockerroom concern, especially at the end.  It is a real shame he had a mental illness because he certainly could have had a much better/longer career.

A bit "harsh"? No, in your rush to try to prove a point that you simply can't prove you decided to play fast and loose with the facts. And you're doing it again. D West equaled or exceeded his draft position in games, points, assists, rebounds, VORP and win shares. If that does not "over-perform" his draft position then nothing does.

It's your tendency to omit inconvenient facts and/or make blatant misrepresentations of facts that makes it difficulty to take your positions seriously.

he didn't exceed his draft position in games played.  He was exactly 24th in that one and Josh Childress who would be drafted ahead of him in a redraft was behind him.  West's 1st 3 years were pretty darn good, he then went into a complete and utter tailspin after that and put together only one solid season.  Now sure 4 solid seasons for a 24th pick isn't bad, but that was one of, if not the, deepest drafts ever.  It was loaded with players that would have very strong careers. 

If there was a redraft, West would go 21-25 which is right around where he actually went.  As I said, I was quick to say it was an underperform, but it certainly wasn't an overperform.  He went right around where he should have.

By that standard Ronald Murray, Roger Mason, Dan Gadzuric and Rasual Butler were all better than Yao Ming and Matt Barnes is better than Amare'.   

Again, it's tough to take you seriously when you try to prove your point by omitting almost all relevant data. Like thinking that games played is the ultimate metric versus things like points, rebounds, assists, VORP and win shares. Again, that you are desperate to prove a point doesn't make it true and the obvious omission of key data just weakens any argument you have.

That translates to your argument that you think Smart would go 10th in a redraft. It's possible. It's also possible he goes 3rd. Many of the guys you mention are either racking up mediocre statistics for bad teams (Lavine, Payton) or been sidelined due to injury (Nurkic, Embiid). There's not a one of them outside of Wiggins that's been head and shoulders above the rest (that includes Parker). It would come down to what a team values and needs. If you need a scoring SF and can compensate for the lack of defense, you might take Parker. Need a floor general with limited upside? Payton. An athletic, high-flying scorer with a low basketball IQ? LaVine. A big man with upside but who plays below the basket? Nurkic. You want a tough, defensive-minded guy who can win games without the ball in his hands? Then you take Smart, who also happens to be the only one who has made a significant impact on a strong playoff team. And that counts in the NBA regardless of what you may think.

None of those guys have proven to be better than the other yet. On advanced stats Nurkic and Smart are by far and away the best players. It all remains to be seen. But don't try to poo-poo Smart (again by omitting key data) and think the rest of us will believe it. You're again trying to prove a narrative ("Danny is a bad drafter") but you keep reaching for data points that are either inconsequential (JR Giddens), ones you can't prove (Smart) or ones that are outright falsehoods (West).

Note that I'm not trying to change your opinion. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But you're not entitled to your own facts. You're coming up awfully short on those and in the end it's only the facts that really matter.

I was just correcting your incorrect information on the games.  Since you were criticizing bits and pieces of my post and then doing so with incorrect information.  I have no issue saying West would go 21-25 in a redraft, that is in the range of where he actually went, which is neither overperforming or underperforming (which I've acknowledged I originally was wrong on).  I have hard time taking anyone seriously that won't put their own assessment on something, but would rather just pick out a statement here or there and then jump to silly conclusions that aren't actually borne out in anything.  If you think games played is why I think West goes in the 21-25 range, then I don't know what to tell you, that is not accurate. 

I firmly believe Smart, based on right now, would go 10th in a redraft.  Behind Wiggins, Parker, Gordon, Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine, Randle, and Hood.  I also think there are teams that would take Embiid, Saric, Clarkson, and maybe Capela ahead of Smart.  There are teams that wouldn't and would take him ahead of Lavine, Randle, and Hood (I think Payton is unlikely though possible), but I wouldn't. 

Smart thus far looks like a defensive role player.  Those guys have solid value of course and often have very long careers, but they aren't worth the 6th pick in the draft either.  The reality is Smart looks terrible on offense.  He is a poor passer, can't hit the broad side of a barn, and has been disappointing as a penetrator.  Maybe he takes the leap this year or maybe he is what he is and has a very nice career as a defensive stopper.

Smart showed glimpses of his off potential in the Atlanta Series. KO has as well. They both could justify their spots this year. DA has not made a true "great" draft find as of Yet but I think our two stashes this year as well as Rozier could have talking about how Danny has used his Draft assets well in the last few years. Rondo and Avery both would move up in a redraft.  Only three total wastes JJJ, Melo and Giddens.

[Moranis]

Delonte west averaged 10/3/4 in 430+ games over 8 seasons. How much do you really expect from the 24th pick in the draft?!

I was probably bit harsh on him.  But if you look at the actual draft in a redraft he goes in the 21-25 range, so that puts him right about where he went.  So not an underperform, but certainly not an overperform.  Just for some facts, he was 24th in games played, 21st in winshares (and one of the guys ahead of him here was behind him in games), etc.  Plus, he was such a headcase and lockerroom concern, especially at the end.  It is a real shame he had a mental illness because he certainly could have had a much better/longer career.

A bit "harsh"? No, in your rush to try to prove a point that you simply can't prove you decided to play fast and loose with the facts. And you're doing it again. D West equaled or exceeded his draft position in games, points, assists, rebounds, VORP and win shares. If that does not "over-perform" his draft position then nothing does.

It's your tendency to omit inconvenient facts and/or make blatant misrepresentations of facts that makes it difficulty to take your positions seriously.

he didn't exceed his draft position in games played.  He was exactly 24th in that one and Josh Childress who would be drafted ahead of him in a redraft was behind him.  West's 1st 3 years were pretty darn good, he then went into a complete and utter tailspin after that and put together only one solid season.  Now sure 4 solid seasons for a 24th pick isn't bad, but that was one of, if not the, deepest drafts ever.  It was loaded with players that would have very strong careers. 

If there was a redraft, West would go 21-25 which is right around where he actually went.  As I said, I was quick to say it was an underperform, but it certainly wasn't an overperform.  He went right around where he should have.

By that standard Ronald Murray, Roger Mason, Dan Gadzuric and Rasual Butler were all better than Yao Ming and Matt Barnes is better than Amare'.   

Again, it's tough to take you seriously when you try to prove your point by omitting almost all relevant data. Like thinking that games played is the ultimate metric versus things like points, rebounds, assists, VORP and win shares. Again, that you are desperate to prove a point doesn't make it true and the obvious omission of key data just weakens any argument you have.

That translates to your argument that you think Smart would go 10th in a redraft. It's possible. It's also possible he goes 3rd. Many of the guys you mention are either racking up mediocre statistics for bad teams (Lavine, Payton) or been sidelined due to injury (Nurkic, Embiid). There's not a one of them outside of Wiggins that's been head and shoulders above the rest (that includes Parker). It would come down to what a team values and needs. If you need a scoring SF and can compensate for the lack of defense, you might take Parker. Need a floor general with limited upside? Payton. An athletic, high-flying scorer with a low basketball IQ? LaVine. A big man with upside but who plays below the basket? Nurkic. You want a tough, defensive-minded guy who can win games without the ball in his hands? Then you take Smart, who also happens to be the only one who has made a significant impact on a strong playoff team. And that counts in the NBA regardless of what you may think.

None of those guys have proven to be better than the other yet. On advanced stats Nurkic and Smart are by far and away the best players. It all remains to be seen. But don't try to poo-poo Smart (again by omitting key data) and think the rest of us will believe it. You're again trying to prove a narrative ("Danny is a bad drafter") but you keep reaching for data points that are either inconsequential (JR Giddens), ones you can't prove (Smart) or ones that are outright falsehoods (West).

Note that I'm not trying to change your opinion. After all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But you're not entitled to your own facts. You're coming up awfully short on those and in the end it's only the facts that really matter.

I was just correcting your incorrect information on the games.  Since you were criticizing bits and pieces of my post and then doing so with incorrect information.  I have no issue saying West would go 21-25 in a redraft, that is in the range of where he actually went, which is neither overperforming or underperforming (which I've acknowledged I originally was wrong on).  I have hard time taking anyone seriously that won't put their own assessment on something, but would rather just pick out a statement here or there and then jump to silly conclusions that aren't actually borne out in anything.  If you think games played is why I think West goes in the 21-25 range, then I don't know what to tell you, that is not accurate. 

I firmly believe Smart, based on right now, would go 10th in a redraft.  Behind Wiggins, Parker, Gordon, Nurkic, Jokic, Payton, Lavine, Randle, and Hood.  I also think there are teams that would take Embiid, Saric, Clarkson, and maybe Capela ahead of Smart.  There are teams that wouldn't and would take him ahead of Lavine, Randle, and Hood (I think Payton is unlikely though possible), but I wouldn't. 

Smart thus far looks like a defensive role player.  Those guys have solid value of course and often have very long careers, but they aren't worth the 6th pick in the draft either.  The reality is Smart looks terrible on offense.  He is a poor passer, can't hit the broad side of a barn, and has been disappointing as a penetrator.  Maybe he takes the leap this year or maybe he is what he is and has a very nice career as a defensive stopper.

Smart showed glimpses of his off potential in the Atlanta Series. KO has as well. They both could justify their spots this year. DA has not made a true "great" draft find as of Yet but I think our two stashes this year as well as Rozier could have talking about how Danny has used his Draft assets well in the last few years. Rondo and Avery both would move up in a redraft.  Only three total wastes JJJ, Melo and Giddens.

Don't get me wrong, I hope Smart takes a leap and develops the offensive game to match his defensive game.  That would be optimal, I just don't realistically see it happening. 

[Bobshot]

I appreciate all the detailed replies, but I wish the default response with a quote was limited to just the last quote, which would greatly simplify things and make a post easier to read. I know you can do that, but you have to delete a lot of stuff--or maybe I'm missing something.