Noel on Sixers having three centers: "It doesn't make any sense."

[LarBrd33]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

Sounds like you don't trust the process

If it makes people say things like "Simmons might play PG" when he didn't even play it in college and could barely defend against college bigs, no one should trust it.

Could Philly wind up running a lot of their offense through Simmons?  Sure, much like the Kings did through Chris Webber back in the day.  If anyone at the Kings had suggested playing Webber at point, however, they would have been shot out of a cannon into the Pacific Ocean.

Mike

Nobody panics when a team has too many bad players at a position ... for instance, our many irrelevant shooting guards.  It only becomes a "problem" when you have too many good players at a position.  Philly is on record with saying they will not make a trade for the sake of making a trade.  They are obviously open to a move, but it needs to be what they consider a fair offer.  They see their log jam as a luxury and in a way, they are right.  The reason why we see so many articles about this is because it's acknowledged throughout the league that if Philly decides to move one of their prize bigs, that player automatically becomes one of the best available trade chips in the league.  Hence why we see so many articles about Noel.  Fans are fawning over the dream of snagging him from Philly.  We're guilty of that almost daily.  I'd love to have Noel in Boston.  Unfortunately, Philly is the gate keeper.

As for the Simmons thing... pretty much every article I read on him suggests the plan is for him to play Point Guard.

[MBunge]

I think the biggest bit of confusion people have about the Philly situation is thinking their big man log jam is purely a negative thing.   It's a problem, but it's a nice problem to have.  I wouldn't mind having three star prospect point guards, for instance.  We have one in Thomas.  Smart hopefully makes a leap into that territory this year.  Rozier is a big unknown but perhaps he gets there as well.  If all three were good, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

One difference is that Boston won more games last year than Philly did last year and the two previous years combined.  Another is that Boston only spent one lottery pick on the trio of IT, Smart and Rozier.

I don't think anyone denies that it's good to have talented players but when a franchise deliberately throws away three entire seasons, they have to be held to a higher standard.

Mike

[walker834]

The trade makes sense. We get a young shotblcoker.  Philly gets Rozier and a shot at dennis smith or giles or jackson too. There are other pgs next draft too.  I dont know if Noel is even really available but would be nice.

Next years nets pick and Rozier for Noel.  Unless there is something I'm missing and we can do better somewhere sign me up.

WE have Isaiah and Smart and Bradley.  They get Rozier and a shot at those guys. Clear up their log jam and get rozier and a shot at a really good pg.

We keep 18 and have cap space going forward.  They have Embiid, Okafor, Simmons their glut of sf's too and can get a really good pg and get Rozier who is really good too.

[LarBrd33]

I think the biggest bit of confusion people have about the Philly situation is thinking their big man log jam is purely a negative thing.   It's a problem, but it's a nice problem to have.  I wouldn't mind having three star prospect point guards, for instance.  We have one in Thomas.  Smart hopefully makes a leap into that territory this year.  Rozier is a big unknown but perhaps he gets there as well.  If all three were good, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

One difference is that Boston won more games last year than Philly did last year and the two previous years combined. 

That really doesn't have anything to do with it.  This is the first season in a while that Philly is actually trying to win games.   They need to see what their weaknesses and strengths are before they do something.  Common sense.  If Noel projects to play 15-20 minutes off the bench this season, why trade him now for a lesser point guard that might play 15-20 minutes off the bench.  Makes no sense.

[MBunge]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

Sounds like you don't trust the process

If it makes people say things like "Simmons might play PG" when he didn't even play it in college and could barely defend against college bigs, no one should trust it.

Could Philly wind up running a lot of their offense through Simmons?  Sure, much like the Kings did through Chris Webber back in the day.  If anyone at the Kings had suggested playing Webber at point, however, they would have been shot out of a cannon into the Pacific Ocean.

Mike

Nobody panics when a team has too many bad players at a position ... for instance, our many irrelevant shooting guards.  It only becomes a "problem" when you have too many good players at a position.  Philly is on record with saying they will not make a trade for the sake of trading it.  They see their log jam as a luxury and in a way, they are right.  The reason why we see so many articles about this is because it's acknowledged throughout the league that if Philly decides to move one of their prize bigs, that player automatically becomes one of the best available trade chips in the league.  Hence why we see so many articles about Noel.  Fans are fawning over the dream of snagging him from Philly.  We're guilty of that almost daily.  I'd love to have Noel in Boston.  Unfortunately, Philly is the gate keeper.

As for the Simmons thing... pretty much every article I read on him suggests the plan is for him to play Point Guard.

1.  No one is "fawning" over the dream of snagging Noel because everyone besides you Hinkie-ites recognizes that Noel is a good prospect but nothing to go nuts over.

2.  Please present a link to an article that says Simmons is going to play point guard.  NOT that they're going to run the offense through him but that he is literally going to play point guard and the Sixers starting lineup is going to look something like...

Simmons - PG
Gerald Henderson - SG
Robert Covington - SF
Noel - PF
Okafor - C

Mike

[celticsclay]

Again people suggesting we trade the nets pick for Noel are being ridiculous. That would be the worst trade by many miles of ainge's tenure and possibly the worst in Celtics history. Even the Philly fans acknowledge they would not get that pick in a trade so it makes us look pretty foolish to suggest it. A top 3 pick in a draft with a reasonable chance of being the top pick being paid for 4 years on a rookie deal for a solid defensive player on a Max is just insane. Please stop proposing this it makes the board look insane. I say this as someone that likes Noel a pretty good amount

[walker834]

I've never been one to believe the masses.  How dare I suggest the world is not flat.  To make things happen stuff happens.

[LarBrd33]

The trade makes sense. We get a young shotblcoker.  Philly gets Rozier and a shot at dennis smith or giles or jackson too. There are other pgs next draft too.  I dont know if Noel is even really available but would be nice.

Next years nets pick and Rozier for Noel.  Unless there is something I'm missing and we can do better somewhere sign me up.

WE have Isaiah and Smart and Bradley.  They get Rozier and a shot at those guys. Clear up their log jam and get rozier and a shot at a really good pg.

Brooklyn 2017 + Rozier for Noel - I think that's an acceptable deal Philly would actually take...  I wouldn't do that if I were Boston.  Rozier is basically a throw-in on that deal.  Rozier has no trade value.   You're basically saying the Brooklyn pick for Noel.  It makes some sense, but Boston is probably better off gambling on the pick even if there's a tiny chance the pick ends up lesser.   

That said, the 2017 Brooklyn pick for Okafor is interesting.   Similar to the offer we made in Feburary built around the 2016 Brooklyn pick.  Philly turned us down though, because clearing the big man luxury jam by adding another future asset wouldnt' have done much to calm fans angry about their tanking. 

[jpotter33]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

Sounds like you don't trust the process

If it makes people say things like "Simmons might play PG" when he didn't even play it in college and could barely defend against college bigs, no one should trust it.

Could Philly wind up running a lot of their offense through Simmons?  Sure, much like the Kings did through Chris Webber back in the day.  If anyone at the Kings had suggested playing Webber at point, however, they would have been shot out of a cannon into the Pacific Ocean.

Mike

Nobody panics when a team has too many bad players at a position ... for instance, our many irrelevant shooting guards.  It only becomes a "problem" when you have too many good players at a position.  Philly is on record with saying they will not make a trade for the sake of making a trade.  They are obviously open to a move, but it needs to be what they consider a fair offer.  They see their log jam as a luxury and in a way, they are right.  The reason why we see so many articles about this is because it's acknowledged throughout the league that if Philly decides to move one of their prize bigs, that player automatically becomes one of the best available trade chips in the league.  Hence why we see so many articles about Noel.  Fans are fawning over the dream of snagging him from Philly.  We're guilty of that almost daily.  I'd love to have Noel in Boston.  Unfortunately, Philly is the gate keeper.

As for the Simmons thing... pretty much every article I read on him suggests the plan is for him to play Point Guard.

This is simply a misunderstanding of NBA basketball. He might handle the ball usually, but that does not make him the point guard. Your position is primarily determined by who you guard, which simply makes him a point forward. He can't hardly guard NBA power forwards as it is, so how is he supposed to guard point guards. Saying he's going to play point guard is false and doesn't solve the logjam at the big position.

[walker834]

my one concern is Noel is a free agent next year but there is no guarantee he comes here.  Philly can outbid us.  I think they have bird rights still and can outbid us.  They have a lot of guys on rookie deals where they can keep their bird rights too and throw money at him. They have the space to do that and keep him from us anyways where a deal would have to be made for him to come here anyways in a sign and trade. I dont think they just let him walk.  Thats not how it usually works. It didnt happen with Whiteside and it probably wont happen with Noel.

He's not an unrestricted free agent like that. They have bird rights on him.

In order to get him here it's going to take a huge fallout on their part or us offering them something good.

[Csfan1984]

Again people suggesting we trade the nets pick for Noel are being ridiculous. That would be the worst trade by many miles of ainge's tenure and possibly the worst in Celtics history. Even the Philly fans acknowledge they would not get that pick in a trade so it makes us look pretty foolish to suggest it. A top 3 pick in a draft with a reasonable chance of being the top pick being paid for 4 years on a rookie deal for a solid defensive player on a Max is just insane. Please stop proposing this it makes the board look insane. I say this as someone that likes Noel a pretty good amount

I 100% agree. Nets pick for a one year rental it's lol funny

[MBunge]

I think the biggest bit of confusion people have about the Philly situation is thinking their big man log jam is purely a negative thing.   It's a problem, but it's a nice problem to have.  I wouldn't mind having three star prospect point guards, for instance.  We have one in Thomas.  Smart hopefully makes a leap into that territory this year.  Rozier is a big unknown but perhaps he gets there as well.  If all three were good, I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

One difference is that Boston won more games last year than Philly did last year and the two previous years combined. 

That really doesn't have anything to do with it. 

Yes it does.  You lord and savior quit because he said they were no longer going to follow his "process."  That means they ARE trying to win now and AREN'T willing to wait another half decade to put a competitive team on the floor.  Therefore the pressure and expectation on Philly to do something is far greater than it is on Boston, which is already where Philly hopes to be.

A team that is already playoff caliber has far less pressure and far more options than a team that is three years into a rebuilding process and still won only 10 games.

To get back to what started this thread, Rozier isn't going to start complaining in the media about playing time because good guys on winning teams don't do that.  Even if he did, no one would care because Boston is, you know, winning.  It's a completely different thing with Noel and the Sixers.

Mike

[walker834]

He isn't a one year rental.  We would retain his bird rights I believe. I'm not suer on that though. But he'd probably sign an extension here anyways.  In a trade players retain their bird rights i think anyways.

When a player is drafted and then traded the team he is traded to retains his bird rights like they drafted him. It makes sense and doesnt work that way.

We can outbid any team for him.

[walker834]

the celtics are smart and retain their players. Philly may be stupid and let us outbid them this offseason but I doubt it.  It didnt happen with Whiteside.

yeah it could get crazy where some team is really outbidding us over his value.  And we dont retain players that arent worth it.

But overall the celtics retain their players that are worth it.

If a trade happens it's going to be because we offer philly something of value that they want to do and where we retain his rights.

[LarBrd33]

They don't need to do anything.  Plenty of minutes to go around.  It's not ideal, but who cares.  That team isn't threatening for a championship this year.

Imagine a scenario where Thomas and Bradley keep playing excellent basketball.  Pretend Marcus Smart actually makes his leap and looks like a starter.  Now let's also pretend that Terry Rozier's Summer League was legit and he's everything we hope he can be.  Let's say Terry Rozier looks like a legit starting PG in the handful of minutes he gets.  How's he getting starting guard minutes on a team with Thomas, Bradley and Smart all playing excellent ball? 

Now, because Rozier's minutes are limited and teams know Boston is desperate to move one of their PGs, should Boston trade him for a early 2nd rounder just for the sake of trading him?  No, of course not.  That doesn't help the team.  Better off just having Rozier play his 5-10 minutes per night at PG than give him away for pennies on the dollar.   In that scenario, Boston just hangs onto him until someone makes a legit offer or they figure out a way to get equal value for Thomas or Smart. 

Once you understand that, you'll understand why 99% of this board his no idea what they are talking about in regards to Philly's big man situation.   They'll probably trade one of those guys eventually, but it makes the most sense to play out the season and see if someone's trade value increases to the point that someone makes them an acceptable offer.

Perhaps that's because Smart, Rozier, and Bradley can all effectively play two (or even three in Smart's case) positions, and Okafor, Noel, and Embiid are all pure 5's that can neither play the 4 nor play together.

Combine that with the fact that both Saric and Simmons are clearly 4's that simply can't play the 3 (though Simmons could play small-ball 5), let alone Covington that will also have time at the small-ball 4, and, no, there simply isn't enough minutes to go around, and keeping all of them is going to do nothing but start locker room issues (as we're seeing play out before our eyes) and lower their trade value even more by them either not getting sufficient minutes or having to play out of position with a poor fitting frontcourt mate.

Ah, that Sam Hinkie team-building logic, though!

Hinkie collected assets.  It remains to be seen how it fits together.  They have time to figure it out.  Embiid might be able to play PF.  Simmons might be able to play PG or SF.  They'll figure it out eventually.

This is a good lesson for us all.  This whole thing started because LarBrd had to take a contrarian viewpoint to prove how smart he is.  It's now wound up with him saying stuff that makes it seem like he doesn't understand basketball in the slightest.

Mike

Sounds like you don't trust the process

If it makes people say things like "Simmons might play PG" when he didn't even play it in college and could barely defend against college bigs, no one should trust it.

Could Philly wind up running a lot of their offense through Simmons?  Sure, much like the Kings did through Chris Webber back in the day.  If anyone at the Kings had suggested playing Webber at point, however, they would have been shot out of a cannon into the Pacific Ocean.

Mike

Nobody panics when a team has too many bad players at a position ... for instance, our many irrelevant shooting guards.  It only becomes a "problem" when you have too many good players at a position.  Philly is on record with saying they will not make a trade for the sake of making a trade.  They are obviously open to a move, but it needs to be what they consider a fair offer.  They see their log jam as a luxury and in a way, they are right.  The reason why we see so many articles about this is because it's acknowledged throughout the league that if Philly decides to move one of their prize bigs, that player automatically becomes one of the best available trade chips in the league.  Hence why we see so many articles about Noel.  Fans are fawning over the dream of snagging him from Philly.  We're guilty of that almost daily.  I'd love to have Noel in Boston.  Unfortunately, Philly is the gate keeper.

As for the Simmons thing... pretty much every article I read on him suggests the plan is for him to play Point Guard.

This is simply a misunderstanding of NBA basketball. He might handle the ball usually, but that does not make him the point guard.

He's a 6-10 Rondo that can guard 6 positions.