Author Topic: Jayson Tatum's improved play  (Read 18442 times)

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Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #105 on: February 26, 2020, 01:26:24 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I don't know if Jayson will ever be the kind of player who can do for a whole season what he's been doing the last month and a half or so.

It probably doesn't matter.


Can he play like this over the course of a deep playoff run? 

If he can, it's the kind of play that could make him Finals MVP one day.

I certainly think he's capable.  Hopefully, its more of a matter of "when" than "if".

His game, when on, is definitely the type of basketball play you see from the true greats of the game over the years in the playoffs.  His ceiling is ridiculously high.  I'm not sure the Celtics have had a player with a higher "ceiling potential" since maybe Bird. 


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Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #106 on: February 26, 2020, 01:27:13 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jaylen Rose and Jay Williams said among the 21 and under group he will be the 2nd best NBA player, only Luka better.

Some Clown ESPN guy had Tatum 4th. Behind Luka, Tre, Ja and Zion.

I wouldn’t trade Tatum for any of those guys. We are witnessing the emergence of greatness. Man are we lucky.


I think Luka is like a more fun James Harden.  He's gonna be up there with Anthony Davis and Giannis for the guys who rule the next era of the NBA.


As for Zion, he's a beast.  What effect does he have on his team's defense, though?  Is he shorter Blake Griffin?  I'm not sure how to gauge Zion's effect on winning yet.


Ja is cool and all but he strikes me as the kind of young guard who comes along every couple of years.  He'll need to grow his game a lot to compensate for the inevitable decrease in speed and recklessness that will come on quite quickly as he gains experience.

Trae is like a guard version of Zion in the sense that he puts up eye popping offensive numbers and warps his team's defense in ways that are probably not good.  Unlike Zion I dont' think Trae has the potential to be a good defender.  He probably can't even be an average defender.  Right now I think Trae is mostly empty calories.
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Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #107 on: February 26, 2020, 01:57:13 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think Jayson might have a shot at Eastern Conference Player of the Month.

30.2 PPG
7.2 RPG
3 APG
50/49.5/77.8 shooting splits for a TS% of 64.8%

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #108 on: February 26, 2020, 02:17:51 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I think Jayson might have a shot at Eastern Conference Player of the Month.

30.2 PPG
7.2 RPG
3 APG
50/49.5/77.8 shooting splits for a TS% of 64.8%


Here's a question -- is Jayson a contender for MIP?
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Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #109 on: February 26, 2020, 02:23:13 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think Jayson might have a shot at Eastern Conference Player of the Month.

30.2 PPG
7.2 RPG
3 APG
50/49.5/77.8 shooting splits for a TS% of 64.8%

Here's a question -- is Jayson a contender for MIP?
He should be.

His improvement on both ends of the court has taken him from quality starter level to all-nba level.

Siakam had an early narrative built for winning it twice. But Siakam was better than Tatum last year, and Tatum is better than Siakam this year so if they're giving it to a "star" player Tatum seems a clear fit.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #110 on: February 26, 2020, 02:24:44 PM »

Offline Greenblood35

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Jaylen Rose and Jay Williams said among the 21 and under group he will be the 2nd best NBA player, only Luka better.

Some Clown ESPN guy had Tatum 4th. Behind Luka, Tre, Ja and Zion.

I wouldn’t trade Tatum for any of those guys. We are witnessing the emergence of greatness. Man are we lucky.


I think Luka is like a more fun James Harden.  He's gonna be up there with Anthony Davis and Giannis for the guys who rule the next era of the NBA.


As for Zion, he's a beast.  What effect does he have on his team's defense, though?  Is he shorter Blake Griffin?  I'm not sure how to gauge Zion's effect on winning yet.


Ja is cool and all but he strikes me as the kind of young guard who comes along every couple of years.  He'll need to grow his game a lot to compensate for the inevitable decrease in speed and recklessness that will come on quite quickly as he gains experience.

Trae is like a guard version of Zion in the sense that he puts up eye popping offensive numbers and warps his team's defense in ways that are probably not good.  Unlike Zion I dont' think Trae has the potential to be a good defender.  He probably can't even be an average defender.  Right now I think Trae is mostly empty calories.

Was listening to Sirius NBA radio yesterday with Evan Cohen and Mitch Lawrence. They were debating this very issue. If you could start a team tomorrow with any player 21 or younger, who would you go with, between Zion, Luka, Trae, Ja and Tatum. Evan said he'd take Tatum first, based on what he is doing on the offensive AND defensive side of the ball. Mitch took Luka then Tatum after. Either way, that is pretty high (and well deserved) praise and respect.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #111 on: February 26, 2020, 04:18:48 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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What do people think Tatum's chances of being all-NBA this season are? This makes a significant difference for the salary cap, as I understand it, because the Celtics would probably have to pay 30% of the cap on his next contract rather than 25%. This makes a big difference for a team that will probably try and work out a contract with Hayward and avoid the repeater tax at the same time.

There are 15 spots on the all-NBA teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). Without much thought as to position, here are the players I think should definitely come before Tatum:

Lebron
Giannis
Embiid
Siakam
Doncic
Harden
Davis
Leonard

That's 8 players, with 7 slots remaining. Here are the players which I think *probably* should go before Tatum:

T. Young
Simmons (new injury might affect this)
Lillard
Gobert
Jokic

That brings us to 13, leaving 2 spots. Here are some more that I would put more or less on the same level as Tatum:

Westbrook
K. Walker
Adebayo
Butler
Beale
Lowry
C. Paul
Ingram
Mitchell

What do people think Tatum's chances are? He's absolutely playing at an all-NBA level, but the competition is going to be stiff.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2020, 04:31:09 PM »

Offline jambr380

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What do people think Tatum's chances of being all-NBA this season are? This makes a significant difference for the salary cap, as I understand it, because the Celtics would probably have to pay 30% of the cap on his next contract rather than 25%. This makes a big difference for a team that will probably try and work out a contract with Hayward and avoid the repeater tax at the same time.

There are 15 spots on the all-NBA teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). Without much thought as to position, here are the players I think should definitely come before Tatum:

Lebron
Giannis
Embiid
Siakam
Doncic
Harden
Davis
Leonard

That's 8 players, with 7 slots remaining. Here are the players which I think *probably* should go before Tatum:

T. Young
Simmons (new injury might affect this)
Lillard
Gobert
Jokic

That brings us to 13, leaving 2 spots. Here are some more that I would put more or less on the same level as Tatum:

Westbrook
K. Walker
Adebayo
Butler
Beale
Lowry
C. Paul
Ingram
Mitchell

What do people think Tatum's chances are? He's absolutely playing at an all-NBA level, but the competition is going to be stiff.

This was discussed earlier in this thread and the main takeaways were:

1) He could make All-NBA this season, but not next season and he would still only get the 25% max

2) Positions do matter. There are only 6 Forward spots and AD - even though he can be counted as a big - really should take one of those spots since he starts at Forward every game. Those are 5 spots right there in your 'definites' category.

3) Even if Tatum does make All-NBA this season, that wouldn't affect the repeater tax for 20-21 since Tatum will still be on his rookie contract next season (Brown's extension kicks in, though). We just need to also be under next season (in addition to this one) and we will be good to go for several years.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2020, 04:44:57 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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What do people think Tatum's chances of being all-NBA this season are? This makes a significant difference for the salary cap, as I understand it, because the Celtics would probably have to pay 30% of the cap on his next contract rather than 25%. This makes a big difference for a team that will probably try and work out a contract with Hayward and avoid the repeater tax at the same time.

There are 15 spots on the all-NBA teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd). Without much thought as to position, here are the players I think should definitely come before Tatum:

Lebron
Giannis
Embiid
Siakam
Doncic
Harden
Davis
Leonard

That's 8 players, with 7 slots remaining. Here are the players which I think *probably* should go before Tatum:

T. Young
Simmons (new injury might affect this)
Lillard
Gobert
Jokic

That brings us to 13, leaving 2 spots. Here are some more that I would put more or less on the same level as Tatum:

Westbrook
K. Walker
Adebayo
Butler
Beale
Lowry
C. Paul
Ingram
Mitchell

What do people think Tatum's chances are? He's absolutely playing at an all-NBA level, but the competition is going to be stiff.

This was discussed earlier in this thread and the main takeaways were:

1) He could make All-NBA this season, but not next season and he would still only get the 25% max

2) Positions do matter. There are only 6 Forward spots and AD - even though he can be counted as a big - really should take one of those spots since he starts at Forward every game. Those are 5 spots right there in your 'definites' category.

3) Even if Tatum does make All-NBA this season, that wouldn't affect the repeater tax for 20-21 since Tatum will still be on his rookie contract next season (Brown's extension kicks in, though). We just need to also be under next season (in addition to this one) and we will be good to go for several years.

Aha, thanks for summarizing. I didn't realize this was already discussed.

*EDIT: I'm only now realizing what you mean about having to make all-NBA next year. To qualify for 30% of the max/Rose rule, I guess the player has to either make all-star starter twice, all-nba twice, or MVP once. Basically, if Tatum is all-NBA two years in a row, no one should have a problem paying him 30% of the cap.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2020, 05:04:05 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Even if Tatum doesn't make All-NBA this year, if he does next year he would be eligible for the 30%. There is a caveat in the All-NBA qualifier for the 30%. It's you get the 30% if you are All-NBA the year before the new contract OR making All-NBA in 2 previous seasons.

So for Tatum to qualify he would need to be All-NBA in the 2020-21 season OR All-NBA in two of his previous seasons(2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20), which he hasn't done.

That's just the All-NBA qualifier. He also gets it if he is a DPOY or MVP at anytime on his rookie contract.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #115 on: February 26, 2020, 05:11:35 PM »

Offline Walker Wiggle

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Even if Tatum doesn't make All-NBA this year, if he does next year he would be eligible for the 30%. There is a caveat in the All-NBA qualifier for the 30%. It's you get the 30% if you are All-NBA the year before the new contract OR making All-NBA in 2 previous seasons.

So for Tatum to qualify he would need to be All-NBA in the 2020-21 season OR All-NBA in two of his previous seasons(2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20), which he hasn't done.

That's just the All-NBA qualifier. He also gets it if he is a DPOY or MVP at anytime on his rookie contract.

Thanks for clarifying. So I guess this year's result doesn't matter much.

This whole thing (that is, Tatum's explosion and the salary cap implications starting in 2021-22) makes me wonder if the team is better off having Hayward opt in to that big $30m next year, and then hope to sign him to shorter money on a subsequent deal.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #116 on: February 26, 2020, 05:27:09 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Even if Tatum doesn't make All-NBA this year, if he does next year he would be eligible for the 30%. There is a caveat in the All-NBA qualifier for the 30%. It's you get the 30% if you are All-NBA the year before the new contract OR making All-NBA in 2 previous seasons.

So for Tatum to qualify he would need to be All-NBA in the 2020-21 season OR All-NBA in two of his previous seasons(2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20), which he hasn't done.

That's just the All-NBA qualifier. He also gets it if he is a DPOY or MVP at anytime on his rookie contract.

Thanks for clarifying. So I guess this year's result doesn't matter much.

This whole thing (that is, Tatum's explosion and the salary cap implications starting in 2021-22) makes me wonder if the team is better off having Hayward opt in to that big $30m next year, and then hope to sign him to shorter money on a subsequent deal.
Or maybe he opts out and signs a new 4 year, $100-something million deal that gets next year several million lower than the Celts would have paid if he opts in. That could help the team stay under the lux tax and assures the core is together for the next 3-4 years, when they will indeed be title contending about every year.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #117 on: February 26, 2020, 08:36:53 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Even if Tatum doesn't make All-NBA this year, if he does next year he would be eligible for the 30%. There is a caveat in the All-NBA qualifier for the 30%. It's you get the 30% if you are All-NBA the year before the new contract OR making All-NBA in 2 previous seasons.

So for Tatum to qualify he would need to be All-NBA in the 2020-21 season OR All-NBA in two of his previous seasons(2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20), which he hasn't done.

That's just the All-NBA qualifier. He also gets it if he is a DPOY or MVP at anytime on his rookie contract.

Thanks for clarifying. So I guess this year's result doesn't matter much.

This whole thing (that is, Tatum's explosion and the salary cap implications starting in 2021-22) makes me wonder if the team is better off having Hayward opt in to that big $30m next year, and then hope to sign him to shorter money on a subsequent deal.
Or maybe he opts out and signs a new 4 year, $100-something million deal that gets next year several million lower than the Celts would have paid if he opts in. That could help the team stay under the lux tax and assures the core is together for the next 3-4 years, when they will indeed be title contending about every year.

TP Nick, 4 years $100m is the exact # I came up with thinking about this a few weeks ago. 

15% raise each year, $20m in year 1, $23m year 2, $26.5m year 3 and 30.5m in the final year.

Averages out to $25m annually, pays Hayward fairly, isn't a lowball offer, and it resets the repeater clock.
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Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #118 on: February 26, 2020, 09:19:54 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Even if Tatum doesn't make All-NBA this year, if he does next year he would be eligible for the 30%. There is a caveat in the All-NBA qualifier for the 30%. It's you get the 30% if you are All-NBA the year before the new contract OR making All-NBA in 2 previous seasons.

So for Tatum to qualify he would need to be All-NBA in the 2020-21 season OR All-NBA in two of his previous seasons(2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20), which he hasn't done.

That's just the All-NBA qualifier. He also gets it if he is a DPOY or MVP at anytime on his rookie contract.

Thanks for clarifying. So I guess this year's result doesn't matter much.

This whole thing (that is, Tatum's explosion and the salary cap implications starting in 2021-22) makes me wonder if the team is better off having Hayward opt in to that big $30m next year, and then hope to sign him to shorter money on a subsequent deal.
Or maybe he opts out and signs a new 4 year, $100-something million deal that gets next year several million lower than the Celts would have paid if he opts in. That could help the team stay under the lux tax and assures the core is together for the next 3-4 years, when they will indeed be title contending about every year.

TP Nick, 4 years $100m is the exact # I came up with thinking about this a few weeks ago. 

15% raise each year, $20m in year 1, $23m year 2, $26.5m year 3 and 30.5m in the final year.

Averages out to $25m annually, pays Hayward fairly, isn't a lowball offer, and it resets the repeater clock.
Thanks, but I was thinking something higher than $100 million and a legal contract. You are limited by how much of a raise or decrease you can take a year and your numbers don't fit. I think the number is 8% not 15%. I also think maybe something higher the first year with decreasing amounts from there.

Something like:
Year 1 $29 million
Year 2 $28 million
Year 3 $27 million
Year 4 $ $26 million.

So 4 year $110 million. You lower next year's number by $3 million and the decreasing numbers help out every other year when the C's will be in the luxury tax.

That's basically a 3 year $78 million extension.

Gordon would probably really want to have to stay here at that number. I think some other team would give him a better offer, though, I am not sure anyone else will give him a better chance at a ring.

Re: Jayson Tatum's improved play
« Reply #119 on: February 26, 2020, 09:33:59 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Even if Tatum doesn't make All-NBA this year, if he does next year he would be eligible for the 30%. There is a caveat in the All-NBA qualifier for the 30%. It's you get the 30% if you are All-NBA the year before the new contract OR making All-NBA in 2 previous seasons.

So for Tatum to qualify he would need to be All-NBA in the 2020-21 season OR All-NBA in two of his previous seasons(2017-18, 2018-19, 2019-20), which he hasn't done.

That's just the All-NBA qualifier. He also gets it if he is a DPOY or MVP at anytime on his rookie contract.

Thanks for clarifying. So I guess this year's result doesn't matter much.

This whole thing (that is, Tatum's explosion and the salary cap implications starting in 2021-22) makes me wonder if the team is better off having Hayward opt in to that big $30m next year, and then hope to sign him to shorter money on a subsequent deal.
Or maybe he opts out and signs a new 4 year, $100-something million deal that gets next year several million lower than the Celts would have paid if he opts in. That could help the team stay under the lux tax and assures the core is together for the next 3-4 years, when they will indeed be title contending about every year.

TP Nick, 4 years $100m is the exact # I came up with thinking about this a few weeks ago. 

15% raise each year, $20m in year 1, $23m year 2, $26.5m year 3 and 30.5m in the final year.

Averages out to $25m annually, pays Hayward fairly, isn't a lowball offer, and it resets the repeater clock.
Thanks, but I was thinking something higher than $100 million and a legal contract. You are limited by how much of a raise or decrease you can take a year and your numbers don't fit. I think the number is 8% not 15%. I also think maybe something higher the first year with decreasing amounts from there.

Something like:
Year 1 $29 million
Year 2 $28 million
Year 3 $27 million
Year 4 $ $26 million.

So 4 year $110 million. You lower next year's number by $3 million and the decreasing numbers help out every other year when the C's will be in the luxury tax.

That's basically a 3 year $78 million extension.

Gordon would probably really want to have to stay here at that number. I think some other team would give him a better offer, though, I am not sure anyone else will give him a better chance at a ring.

Oops, yeah I wasn't sure about the 15%.

Aren't we able to reset the repeater tax clock if we are under next year?  If so, wouldn't that make us want to backload the contract so that we can trim more next year while still keeping quality depth?
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