CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KGBirdBias on January 18, 2018, 09:30:19 PM
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80 points??
No Hack-a-Simmons down the stretch?
Larkin and Smart the go-to guys...seriously?
Just a all around bad game by players and coaches. Throw it out
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A bottom third of the league or so offense without it's head and shoulders best offensive player. And bad execution as well.
As I keep saying: some of you guys think Tatum is just being held back by Stevens and could go out and run an offense. You're wrong. He's a rookie. Looked like it tonight.
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Rubbish. I hope they're happy with themselves.
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A bottom third of the league or so offense without it's head and shoulders best offensive player. And bad execution as well.
As I keep saying: some of you guys think Tatum is just being held back by Stevens and could go out and run an offense. You're wrong. He's a rookie. Looked like it tonight.
Bolded for emphasis. He's a hell of a prospect. He's not ready to carry an offense like a large part of this site thinks.
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A bottom third of the league or so offense without it's head and shoulders best offensive player. And bad execution as well.
As I keep saying: some of you guys think Tatum is just being held back by Stevens and could go out and run an offense. You're wrong. He's a rookie. Looked like it tonight.
Bolded for emphasis. He's a hell of a prospect. He's not ready to carry an offense like a large part of this site thinks.
Yeah I really don't say it to be critical on him. I am very high on him. In part because he already does things like defend, so later when he can grow off the dribble he already has a two way base to work off of.
He is thriving as a guy who works off Kyrie getting doubled mostly or working over bench players at times, but he is not a consistent guy who can create offense yet. Wouldn't be surprised if as soon as next season he was, but I just tire of the criticisms from some like Stevens is just not letting him do it.
It think tonight we saw how much these guys are thriving off Kyrie doubles. Even if Kyrie doesn't have big assist numbers on the year, he moves the ball and gives it up when he is doubled and that allows others to score, with him getting often a hockey assist.
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That was like a cold shower.
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i had a bad feeling about this game , especially after reading Irving has a sore shoulder , would explain his bad shooting .
it turned out every bit as bad as i thought it would.
im unpleasantly NOT supprized .
told the old lady before the game , not watching .....expect an unwatchable defeat tonght.
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This game was the truth!
Just as we were dependant on IT last year to produce the majority of the offense, we demand from Kyrie to do the same this year.
Sure Big Al is nice complementary big, better than most.
Tatum looks talented.
JB improved his shooting.
But they demand the orchestrator and the backups can't bring it.
Smart is not the one, he just isn't an enough of a threat to score, to keep the defense honest. He scares no one, neither with shooting nor driving the ball (no explosion, poor touch on floaters).
Rozier has the explosion, but less vision than Smart. He is a good backup PG, but not a dynamo.
However, there is no reason to be down about all of this.
Once and whenever he returns, Gordon Hayward will help us a lot. Whether as a weakside threat, as a go-to scorer when Kyrie in on the bench, or simply to put other (role players) guys like JB and Tatum in their more natural, preferred offensive hierarchy.
Our record is already well above expectations. We are just facing some truth about this rosters (some players) limitations.
P.S. I don't agree that CBS was poor this game. What can you do when your starting PG is out and others turn it over 15 times in the 1st half.
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Its obvious that this team is not as good as their record. If it wasn't for Kyrie pulling it out of his butt in the last 5 minutes of most of the games we'd be a less than .500 team. I guess I expect too much from them. I want to see a real team playing well, consistently, passing, running.... Kind of like the Spurs. Last night's game was a travesty and they should be ashamed of themselves. Let's see, barely beat the 76ers after a week's rest, get beat at home by the Pelicans, now get your ass handed to you by the 76ers.
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I will throw it out because of no Kyrie - you can't take a top-10 league offensive talent off the floor and not expect an issue (similar to @ Chicago game ).
Still - big concerns that I have is that this team is not good at shooting, plays lackluster at home, and these things will turn into blow-out losses in the playoffs.
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Bad effort all around. Terrible passes capped off by bringing Nader in and he runs over to pass ball in from out of bounds and he makes horrible pass to Philly resulting in a layup. I would have called time out and pulled Nader immediately. This group without Kyrie try to come back with 4 minutes left and if Al hits the 3 they would have had a chance but they didn't deserve it. Lazy, bad passes and no effort = they deserved to lose. Make Embid a star and let him tweet how great he is. Next we may face them in the playoffs and they feel they can beat us now.
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Nader in and he runs over to pass ball in from out of bounds and he makes horrible pass to Philly resulting in a layup. I would have called time out and pulled Nader immediately.
I agree with you but CBS needs body. I hope we cut Nader or trade him for a used peanut wrapper. Guy gives zero effort on D. That being said, he is not the reason we lost.
We were a team without our star, last night. Philly wanted it more. I think Tatum is in a little rookie slump. Still we almost came back but could buy a shot down the stretch. If we had played that way the whole game instead of being cute with Philly playing like we can come back, we could have won.
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everybody is banged up right now.
I will say this though, the problems on offense have been there all year. yes the loss of kyrie was huge and we probably win that game last night if he played.
but the problem is this team really doesn't play "fast" on offense. and what I mean by that is we're too determined to get the ball to the PG after a defensive rebound so he can walk up the court and get in a half-court set.
we have Jaylen brown, if we get a defensive rebound and he's at mid court or further give him the ball so he can use that athleticism and he might have to only worry about getting around 1 or 2 guys.
obviously we don't want to turn the ball over and don't want to be throwing the ball all over the place but we're wasting 4-6 secs. on the shot clock on these plays we're we insist on getting the ball to the PG.
this would also help the 2nd unit if we didn't play this way.
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Just show u what a great player Irving is..when he's out Celtics have a 5% chance of winning
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Smart, Rozier and Larkin combined for 4 assists in 77 minutes.
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everybody is banged up right now.
I will say this though, the problems on offense have been there all year. yes the loss of kyrie was huge and we probably win that game last night if he played.
but the problem is this team really doesn't play "fast" on offense. and what I mean by that is we're too determined to get the ball to the PG after a defensive rebound so he can walk up the court and get in a half-court set.
we have Jaylen brown, if we get a defensive rebound and he's at mid court or further give him the ball so he can use that athleticism and he might have to only worry about getting around 1 or 2 guys.
obviously we don't want to turn the ball over and don't want to be throwing the ball all over the place but we're wasting 4-6 secs. on the shot clock on these plays we're we insist on getting the ball to the PG.
this would also help the 2nd unit if we didn't play this way.
I'm convinced this is why they lost the NOP game, they easily could have "outrun" them. However, Philly can play up-tempo and it really helps them with Simmons being a non-shooter and JJ being out entirely.
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Celtics very poor on pace which leads to taking tough contested ugly jumpers and instead of moving the ball you have players who just try to score, instead of the assist. As td450 said, 4 assists combined with Smart, Rozier and Larkin? Gross.
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Ainge put 5 rookies on this team (not counting the 2 way players), only 1 of which should be getting minutes. He didn't fill a roster spot and then with Hayward going down that created another open roster spot which he still hasn't filled. So the team has essentially 9 players that should be getting NBA minutes (and I'm using should loosely when it includes players like Larkin), without Irving that is down to 8. Ainge created this situation by putting together a cheap young bench that has no business playing real NBA minutes. I'm guessing Ainge didn't believe the team was a real contender, which would explain this roster construction, but once the team started winning, and winning a lot, Ainge should have at least filled the 2 open spots with actual NBA players.
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Ainge put 5 rookies on this team (not counting the 2 way players), only 1 of which should be getting minutes. He didn't fill a roster spot and then with Hayward going down that created another open roster spot which he still hasn't filled. So the team has essentially 9 players that should be getting NBA minutes (and I'm using should loosely when it includes players like Larkin), without Irving that is down to 8. Ainge created this situation by putting together a cheap young bench that has no business playing real NBA minutes. I'm guessing Ainge didn't believe the team was a real contender, which would explain this roster construction, but once the team started winning, and winning a lot, Ainge should have at least filled the 2 open spots with actual NBA players.
But those players have to be available to do so. Other problem is the C's have assets that teams want but the C's aren't going to want to give up the LA/Mem pick, or Brown or Tatum just for an established player, that might be slightly better now but not in a couple years.
I'm sure he's been dipping his toes int he water to see what the temp is on some players, and it's probably a bit too hot right now. Nothing really gets done till around All Star break as we all no it. He'll use that 8 mill around that time when teams start to realize were they are at, and if they need to cut contracts.
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He didn't fill a roster spot and then with Hayward going down that created another open roster spot which he still hasn't filled.
Ainge should have at least filled the 2 open spots with actual NBA players.
This is incorrect. The Disabled Player Exception is a cap/salary exception. Exceptions do not create additional roster spaces. We still only have 1 spot to fill as Hayward still counts to the 15 man roster (not including Two-Way Players).
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Smart, Rozier and Larkin combined for 4 assists in 77 minutes.
Bad. However, I think you should be talking just Rozier and Smart (especially IMO Rozier). Larkin I thought actually was in control and really turned the game around, sparking the last run.
I know some will scoff but with that kind of play I would put Larkin ahead of Rozer for my rotation. Without Kyrie for sure but even with him. I just know what I am getting and in part that's an actual back up PG. I do appreciate Rozier's athleticism and defense but we need to have some guys who can pass and shoot and are consistent and in control off the bench. Maybe I wouldn't do that every night but last night, yes I would play Larkin over him.
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He didn't fill a roster spot and then with Hayward going down that created another open roster spot which he still hasn't filled.
Ainge should have at least filled the 2 open spots with actual NBA players.
This is incorrect. The Disabled Player Exception is a cap/salary exception. Exceptions do not create additional roster spaces. We still only have 1 spot to fill as Hayward still counts to the 15 man roster (not including Two-Way Players).
Ah thanks.
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Not to make excuses...but the havoc the trip to England has made is rearing its ugly head.
First, the league office jams half a dozen games together almost back to back to make room for the trip overseas, then the team doesn't play another game after it for almost a week.
How about next year they choose Cleveland to go on this strictly egregious promotional trip.
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Not to make excuses...but the havoc the trip to England has made is rearing its ugly head.
First, the league office jams half a dozen games together almost back to back to make room for the trip overseas, then the team doesn't play another game after it for almost a week.
How about next year they choose Cleveland to go on this strictly egregious promotional trip.
I agree it's easy to blame that trip as a major part of our recent struggles, that being said that same trip will be paying dividends during the second half of the season. We have more rest scheduled than any other team.
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Not to make excuses...but the havoc the trip to England has made is rearing its ugly head.
First, the league office jams half a dozen games together almost back to back to make room for the trip overseas, then the team doesn't play another game after it for almost a week.
How about next year they choose Cleveland to go on this strictly egregious promotional trip.
I agree it's easy to blame that trip as a major part of our recent struggles, that being said that same trip will be paying dividends during the second half of the season. We have more rest scheduled than any other team.
In the post-game press conference, Stevens scoffed at a question about the impact of the trip, saying "Philly was with us in London".
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There is NO EXCUSE for their play recently.
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For some reason the offense has got sloppy, too much one on one, bad shots, settling for jumpers.
THe big question to answer as we come out of the AS break. Who will be the 2nd scorer behind Kyrie?
I don't think Horford is that guy.
Brown isn't ready to be a consistent scorer because of his handle.
Tatum may hit a wall at some point and isn't ready.
Teams will make us find that person. It may be collectively but we need the right people taking shots. I miss the days when guys who make sure the ball was always in the hands of the scorers as the shot clock ticks down and let that player decide. Now, anyone is taking shots on crucial possessions. I kind of hate 3pt basketball...it encourages bad shooters to shoot.
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Two defeats to teams with tall talented centers.
I would like to see more of Baynes in these situations.
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For some reason the offense has got sloppy, too much one on one, bad shots, settling for jumpers.
THe big question to answer as we come out of the AS break. Who will be the 2nd scorer behind Kyrie?
I don't think Horford is that guy.
Brown isn't ready to be a consistent scorer because of his handle.
Tatum may hit a wall at some point and isn't ready.
Teams will make us find that person. It may be collectively but we need the right people taking shots. I miss the days when guys who make sure the ball was always in the hands of the scorers as the shot clock ticks down and let that player decide. Now, anyone is taking shots on crucial possessions. I kind of hate 3pt basketball...it encourages bad shooters to shoot.
I agree on Tatum but ideally, Tatum is the 2nd scorer behind Kyrie, Horford is 3rd with either a jumper or low post move, and Brown is the guy who can score off broken plays and on the break.
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Game like last night without Kyrie is when we sorely miss Gordon the most.
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Ainge put 5 rookies on this team (not counting the 2 way players), only 1 of which should be getting minutes. He didn't fill a roster spot and then with Hayward going down that created another open roster spot which he still hasn't filled. So the team has essentially 9 players that should be getting NBA minutes (and I'm using should loosely when it includes players like Larkin), without Irving that is down to 8. Ainge created this situation by putting together a cheap young bench that has no business playing real NBA minutes. I'm guessing Ainge didn't believe the team was a real contender, which would explain this roster construction, but once the team started winning, and winning a lot, Ainge should have at least filled the 2 open spots with actual NBA players.
Said this all summer.
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Another thing, when Irving is on the bench or out of the game, the ball just does not move. It sticks at the top of the key in Larkin's, Smart's and Rozier's hands. All three basically try to play a 2 man PnR game and you get three players standing around waiting for a kickout for a three, most of which are hurried or contested.
Give Philly credit, they played great defense and without the good ball movement last night, they dominated the Cs defensively.
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everybody is banged up right now.
I will say this though, the problems on offense have been there all year. yes the loss of kyrie was huge and we probably win that game last night if he played.
but the problem is this team really doesn't play "fast" on offense. and what I mean by that is we're too determined to get the ball to the PG after a defensive rebound so he can walk up the court and get in a half-court set.
we have Jaylen brown, if we get a defensive rebound and he's at mid court or further give him the ball so he can use that athleticism and he might have to only worry about getting around 1 or 2 guys.
obviously we don't want to turn the ball over and don't want to be throwing the ball all over the place but we're wasting 4-6 secs. on the shot clock on these plays we're we insist on getting the ball to the PG.
this would also help the 2nd unit if we didn't play this way.
I'm convinced this is why they lost the NOP game, they easily could have "outrun" them. However, Philly can play up-tempo and it really helps them with Simmons being a non-shooter and JJ being out entirely.
this is more of a stevens' coaching issue imo. the offense had to play like this before this season because he didn't have the roster to play any other way.
but he's got players that are way more talented now, so I don't know what the reason is? unless he's just trying to limit turnovers, being that this is a very young squad.
which imo is the worst decision he could come up with. i'd rather these guys learn early on from their mistakes, instead of when it matters in the playoffs.
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everybody is banged up right now.
I will say this though, the problems on offense have been there all year. yes the loss of kyrie was huge and we probably win that game last night if he played.
but the problem is this team really doesn't play "fast" on offense. and what I mean by that is we're too determined to get the ball to the PG after a defensive rebound so he can walk up the court and get in a half-court set.
we have Jaylen brown, if we get a defensive rebound and he's at mid court or further give him the ball so he can use that athleticism and he might have to only worry about getting around 1 or 2 guys.
obviously we don't want to turn the ball over and don't want to be throwing the ball all over the place but we're wasting 4-6 secs. on the shot clock on these plays we're we insist on getting the ball to the PG.
this would also help the 2nd unit if we didn't play this way.
I'm convinced this is why they lost the NOP game, they easily could have "outrun" them. However, Philly can play up-tempo and it really helps them with Simmons being a non-shooter and JJ being out entirely.
this is more of a stevens' coaching issue imo. the offense had to play like this before this season because he didn't have the roster to play any other way.
but he's got players that are way more talented now, so I don't know what the reason is? unless he's just trying to limit turnovers, being that this is a very young squad.
which imo is the worst decision he could come up with. i'd rather these guys learn early on from their mistakes, instead of when it matters in the playoffs.
Without Irving, there are 8 NBA level players on the team. The rest are the end of bench rotation type players at best. No coaching in the world is going to overcome that game after game.
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everybody is banged up right now.
I will say this though, the problems on offense have been there all year. yes the loss of kyrie was huge and we probably win that game last night if he played.
but the problem is this team really doesn't play "fast" on offense. and what I mean by that is we're too determined to get the ball to the PG after a defensive rebound so he can walk up the court and get in a half-court set.
we have Jaylen brown, if we get a defensive rebound and he's at mid court or further give him the ball so he can use that athleticism and he might have to only worry about getting around 1 or 2 guys.
obviously we don't want to turn the ball over and don't want to be throwing the ball all over the place but we're wasting 4-6 secs. on the shot clock on these plays we're we insist on getting the ball to the PG.
this would also help the 2nd unit if we didn't play this way.
I'm convinced this is why they lost the NOP game, they easily could have "outrun" them. However, Philly can play up-tempo and it really helps them with Simmons being a non-shooter and JJ being out entirely.
this is more of a stevens' coaching issue imo. the offense had to play like this before this season because he didn't have the roster to play any other way.
but he's got players that are way more talented now, so I don't know what the reason is? unless he's just trying to limit turnovers, being that this is a very young squad.
which imo is the worst decision he could come up with. i'd rather these guys learn early on from their mistakes, instead of when it matters in the playoffs.
Without Irving, there are 8 NBA level players on the team. The rest are the end of bench rotation type players at best. No coaching in the world is going to overcome that game after game.
I wasn't talking about this last game in my previous post. the offense has struggled at times even with Kyrie healthy. and this has been a consistent thing during stevens tenure before kyrie.... which I stated was understandable with the players he's had in the past.
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We have been playing all but about 5 mins of the season without our second best player when the best player is also missing you get a game like this. You cannot lose your best two players in a game and not miss a bit.
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everybody is banged up right now.
I will say this though, the problems on offense have been there all year. yes the loss of kyrie was huge and we probably win that game last night if he played.
but the problem is this team really doesn't play "fast" on offense. and what I mean by that is we're too determined to get the ball to the PG after a defensive rebound so he can walk up the court and get in a half-court set.
we have Jaylen brown, if we get a defensive rebound and he's at mid court or further give him the ball so he can use that athleticism and he might have to only worry about getting around 1 or 2 guys.
obviously we don't want to turn the ball over and don't want to be throwing the ball all over the place but we're wasting 4-6 secs. on the shot clock on these plays we're we insist on getting the ball to the PG.
this would also help the 2nd unit if we didn't play this way.
I'm convinced this is why they lost the NOP game, they easily could have "outrun" them. However, Philly can play up-tempo and it really helps them with Simmons being a non-shooter and JJ being out entirely.
this is more of a stevens' coaching issue imo. the offense had to play like this before this season because he didn't have the roster to play any other way.
but he's got players that are way more talented now, so I don't know what the reason is? unless he's just trying to limit turnovers, being that this is a very young squad.
which imo is the worst decision he could come up with. i'd rather these guys learn early on from their mistakes, instead of when it matters in the playoffs.
Without Irving, there are 8 NBA level players on the team. The rest are the end of bench rotation type players at best. No coaching in the world is going to overcome that game after game.
I wasn't talking about this last game in my previous post. the offense has struggled at times even with Kyrie healthy. and this has been a consistent thing during stevens tenure before kyrie.... which I stated was understandable with the players he's had in the past.
9 nba quality players and 1 of those is historically one of the worst offensive players in basketball history. Again this isn't a coaching problem