Best / Worst Celtic 1st Round pick (lower than 15)

[Hoops]

Roy - I'm surprised you would pick Jefferson. I figured lots of younger guys would choose Jefferson, mostly because they never saw Reggie. I don't know how old you are (nor do I care), but I know you were around to watch Reggie Lewis. What's the rationale?

Reggie brought it on both ends of the floor - a lock-down type of defender and his offensive game was like a cream-sicle. Reggie was a bona fide all-star, something Jefferson doesn't have on his resume (yet).

Plus Reggie was drafted at 22 while Al was practically a lottery pick. In other words, not only do I think Reggie was a better player than Al is now, but he was certainly a better pick at 22 than Al was at 15.

[celts60]

This goes back over 30 years ago, but I would say Tom Boswell in '75 because Auerbach passed up Gus Williams that year

[Roy Hobbs]

Roy - I'm surprised you would pick Jefferson. I figured lots of younger guys would choose Jefferson, mostly because they never saw Reggie. I don't know how old you are (nor do I care), but I know you were around to watch Reggie Lewis. What's the rationale?

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

[SShoreFan 2.0]

This goes back over 30 years ago, but I would say Tom Boswell in '75 because Auerbach passed up Gus Williams that year

Impressive first post!!  I am honored to give you your first Tommy Point for this.

I also noticed that you are from the Philippines, I hope you, your family and friends are safe and secure following the weather you have been having. 

[vanga]

Best the great Reggie, worst Forte and Gerald Green

[12417]

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

By this rationale you'd have to include GG because he was in the same package for KG. Also if TA is later in a package for a potential HOF player he'd be included. I think the logic is faulty, IMHO.

That being said, I'd still go with Al over Reggie. Reggie had just reached his prime at the time of his death and was avg just over 20pts/game on a team where he was the only featured scorer. A very good player but not great.

Al is not even sniffing his prime yet at only 23, and he will be a 20-10 to 25-15 player in the post for the better part of the next 10yrs. In 3-4 yrs the McHale helping out the Celtics jokes will seem stupid if Al's career continues on its current arc. Al is a potential HOF PF which are much harder to come by than a 20pt/game swingman.

[wdleehi]

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

By this rationale you'd have to include GG because he was in the same package for KG. Also if TA is later in a package for a potential HOF player he'd be included. I think the logic is faulty, IMHO.

That being said, I'd still go with Al over Reggie. Reggie had just reached his prime at the time of his death and was avg just over 20pts/game on a team where he was the only featured scorer. A very good player but not great.

Al is not even sniffing his prime yet at only 23, and he will be a 20-10 to 25-15 player in the post for the better part of the next 10yrs. In 3-4 yrs the McHale helping out the Celtics jokes will seem stupid if Al's career continues on its current arc. Al is a potential HOF PF which are much harder to come by than a 20pt/game swingman.

Jefferson allows the Celtics to trade for KG.


Green is just filler. 

[Hoops]

Roy - I'm surprised you would pick Jefferson. I figured lots of younger guys would choose Jefferson, mostly because they never saw Reggie. I don't know how old you are (nor do I care), but I know you were around to watch Reggie Lewis. What's the rationale?

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

Well, sure, if you had hindsight and knew about Reggie's heart, then I guess you'd have to shy away from him. But using that logic, how do you know Al doesn't have a heart problem? Or maybe more realistically a career-ending knee injury? And if you're not willing to speculate about a future injury, how can you speculate about a future all-star selection for Al. I'm a big fan of Al's, but he's not a slam-dunk all-star yet and there's no guarantee that he'll get there.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, I understand your rationale and don't begrudge your choice. I just happen to disagree with it.  

[BballTim]

Roy - I'm surprised you would pick Jefferson. I figured lots of younger guys would choose Jefferson, mostly because they never saw Reggie. I don't know how old you are (nor do I care), but I know you were around to watch Reggie Lewis. What's the rationale?

Reggie brought it on both ends of the floor - a lock-down type of defender and his offensive game was like a cream-sicle. Reggie was a bona fide all-star, something Jefferson doesn't have on his resume (yet).

Plus Reggie was drafted at 22 while Al was practically a lottery pick. In other words, not only do I think Reggie was a better player than Al is now, but he was certainly a better pick at 22 than Al was at 15.

  You're comparing Reggie at 26 or 27 to Al at 22 or 23. At the same age Al's the easy choice.

[paintitgreen]

Roy, right on with that assessment. There are still people hoping to salvage G$. As much as some other players would have been better picks (Lee, Jarrett Jack, Jason Maxiell, Monta Ellis), nobody was bummed about the Green pick at the time (except Scintan, probably).

You have to consider players passed up when determining how good or bad a pick was. The mid-70s was basically a crap shoot, since a lot of great players were picked late, but that was because they were all going to the ABA. I put the best players we bypassed after these picks.

1973 Steve Downing 17 - George McGinnis, Larry Kenon - both went to the ABA. Pretty weak draft.
1974 Glenn McDonald 17 - Billy Knight and George Gervin went to the ABA; Passed on Truck Robinson, John Drew and Leonard Gray, who had productive careers. Could have done better.
1975 Tom Boswell 17 - Gus Williams and World B. Free would have been much better picks.
1976 Norm Cook 16 - Alex English and Dennis Johnson would have been much better picks.
1981 Charles Bradley 23 - Eddie Johnson maybe? we passed on him twice. But we did get one of the best players available at our pick with Danny Ainge at 31.
1982 Darren Tillis 23 - maybe Derek Smith? pretty weak draft.
1983 Greg Kite 21 - we passed on Doc Rivers here but Kite did contribute to titles.
1984 Michael Young* 24 - best player passed up was probably Jerome Kersey, but the pick was traded I guess, so it's irrelevant.
1985 Sam Vincent 20 - passed on A.C. Green and Terry Porter, not the best selection.
1987 Reggie Lewis 22 - got the best player available.
1988 Brian Shaw 24 - probably the best player available.
1990 Dee Brown 19 - Jayson Williams? Elden Campbell? Toni Kukoc? Cedric Ceballos? Could have been better, but it wasn't a bad pick.
1991 Rick Fox 24 - in hindsight, probably the best player available.
1992 Jon Barry* 21 - passed on Sprewell and PJ Brown. What were circumstances of trading this? Having a solid big man like PJ for his whole career would have been huge, and probably would have prevented us wasting back to back picks on Acie Earl and Eric Montross.
1993 Acie Earl 19 - passed on Sam Cassell and Nick Van Exel.
2001 Joseph Forte 21 - passed on Tony Parker and Gilbert Arenas, even Earl Watson (better for position), as well as Gerald Wallace, Sam Dalembert and Mehmet Okur.
2003 Kendrick Perkins 27 - passed on Leandro Barbosa and Josh Howard, but Perk was a good pick.
2004 Al Jefferson 15 - best player available, got us KG.
2004 Delonte West 24, Tony Allen 25 - passed on Kevin Martin, Trevor Ariza. Okay picks, though but who wouldn't want Martin there instead of TA (or as additional trade bait last summer)?
2005 Gerald Green 18 - as mentioned, we passed on Lee, Maxiell, Ellis, Jack, Louis Williams.

Best pick - Al Jefferson. As good as Reggie was, the fact remained, he passed away before he gave us everything he could. Al gave us a couple of good seasons and Kevin Garnett. That pick got us a title, therefore it's the best of those selections. Don't even bother with the Telfair, Green, Gomes, draft picks part of the deal. Big Al is the reason Minnesota traded us KG. If you're arguing that, it's just ridiculous. Argue Reggie was better, but don't argue Al didn't get us KG.

To me, Al's followed by Reggie (only All Star on the list) and then Perk (yeah, we could have gotten some arguably better players, but again, this pick gave us a key contributor to a champion). Kite played on title teams, but he wasn't nearly as key as Perk, and we did pass on Doc, who would have been a nice big backup point guard who added to our depth throughout the late 80s so I'd have to call that a bad pick.

Shaw and Fox were both good picks; that they eventually helped the Lakers rather than the Celtics win titles doesn't mean they were bad picks. Delonte was another good pick, in part because it helped get us Ray, but since we passed on Kevin Martin to get him and TA, maybe it wasn't so great.

Worst pick - I started with Forte over Parker, Arenas or Wallace. Unlike Green and say, Acie Earl, we all knew this was a terrible pick when it was made, and even the short history has backed up that belief.

However, in hindsight, I have to go with the 75-76 combo of Boswell and Cook as the worst picks. Had we picked Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson there, we would have had a backcourt that won a championship in 79 to team with the Big Three. Or instead of DJ (since we eventually got him anyway), imagine throwing up Alex English with Bird, McHale, Parish and Max? Everybody talks about how if Bias had lived, he would have extended Bird and McHale's careers. English did play and excel in the NBA, and absolutely would have extended their careers. We would have been even more unstoppable, and doing those two picks better not only could but probably would have given us 2-3 extra titles in the late 70s and early 80s.

Picking Parker or Arenas or Wallace or Okur over Forte wouldn't have given us any more titles yet, although that could change in the coming years, so the Forte pick has time to get to number one.

Earl and Green were also bad picks, but I didn't really think that at the time. But considering we could have had Sam Cassell and David Lee, both have to be considered bombs. Sam Vincent was actually a pretty darn bad pick considering we could have taken Terry Porter to fill the same role much better.

Our worst pick in the first round, though, as mentioned, may have been Michael Smith 13th in 89, over Tim Hardaway, Dana Barros, Shawn Kemp, BJ Armstrong and Vlade Divac. This one, like Forte, we all knew was a terrible pick when it was made. Bias, in hindsight, was a terrible pick, but for 24 hours seemed like the beginning of another major dynasty, so I can't call it a bad pick, just a bad result.

[SShoreFan 2.0]

Roy, right on with that assessment. There are still people hoping to salvage G$. As much as some other players would have been better picks (Lee, Jarrett Jack, Jason Maxiell, Monta Ellis), nobody was bummed about the Green pick at the time (except Scintan, probably).

You have to consider players passed up when determining how good or bad a pick was. The mid-70s was basically a crap shoot, since a lot of great players were picked late, but that was because they were all going to the ABA. I put the best players we bypassed after these picks.

1973 Steve Downing 17 - George McGinnis, Larry Kenon - both went to the ABA. Pretty weak draft.
1974 Glenn McDonald 17 - Billy Knight and George Gervin went to the ABA; Passed on Truck Robinson, John Drew and Leonard Gray, who had productive careers. Could have done better.
1975 Tom Boswell 17 - Gus Williams and World B. Free would have been much better picks.
1976 Norm Cook 16 - Alex English and Dennis Johnson would have been much better picks.
1981 Charles Bradley 23 - Eddie Johnson maybe? we passed on him twice. But we did get one of the best players available at our pick with Danny Ainge at 31.
1982 Darren Tillis 23 - maybe Derek Smith? pretty weak draft.
1983 Greg Kite 21 - we passed on Doc Rivers here but Kite did contribute to titles.
1984 Michael Young* 24 - best player passed up was probably Jerome Kersey, but the pick was traded I guess, so it's irrelevant.
1985 Sam Vincent 20 - passed on A.C. Green and Terry Porter, not the best selection.
1987 Reggie Lewis 22 - got the best player available.
1988 Brian Shaw 24 - probably the best player available.
1990 Dee Brown 19 - Jayson Williams? Elden Campbell? Toni Kukoc? Cedric Ceballos? Could have been better, but it wasn't a bad pick.
1991 Rick Fox 24 - in hindsight, probably the best player available.
1992 Jon Barry* 21 - passed on Sprewell and PJ Brown. What were circumstances of trading this? Having a solid big man like PJ for his whole career would have been huge, and probably would have prevented us wasting back to back picks on Acie Earl and Eric Montross.
1993 Acie Earl 19 - passed on Sam Cassell and Nick Van Exel.
2001 Joseph Forte 21 - passed on Tony Parker and Gilbert Arenas, even Earl Watson (better for position), as well as Gerald Wallace, Sam Dalembert and Mehmet Okur.
2003 Kendrick Perkins 27 - passed on Leandro Barbosa and Josh Howard, but Perk was a good pick.
2004 Al Jefferson 15 - best player available, got us KG.
2004 Delonte West 24, Tony Allen 25 - passed on Kevin Martin, Trevor Ariza. Okay picks, though but who wouldn't want Martin there instead of TA (or as additional trade bait last summer)?
2005 Gerald Green 18 - as mentioned, we passed on Lee, Maxiell, Ellis, Jack, Louis Williams.

Best pick - Al Jefferson. As good as Reggie was, the fact remained, he passed away before he gave us everything he could. Al gave us a couple of good seasons and Kevin Garnett. That pick got us a title, therefore it's the best of those selections. Don't even bother with the Telfair, Green, Gomes, draft picks part of the deal. Big Al is the reason Minnesota traded us KG. If you're arguing that, it's just ridiculous. Argue Reggie was better, but don't argue Al didn't get us KG.

To me, Al's followed by Reggie (only All Star on the list) and then Perk (yeah, we could have gotten some arguably better players, but again, this pick gave us a key contributor to a champion). Kite played on title teams, but he wasn't nearly as key as Perk, and we did pass on Doc, who would have been a nice big backup point guard who added to our depth throughout the late 80s so I'd have to call that a bad pick.

Shaw and Fox were both good picks; that they eventually helped the Lakers rather than the Celtics win titles doesn't mean they were bad picks. Delonte was another good pick, in part because it helped get us Ray, but since we passed on Kevin Martin to get him and TA, maybe it wasn't so great.

Worst pick - I started with Forte over Parker, Arenas or Wallace. Unlike Green and say, Acie Earl, we all knew this was a terrible pick when it was made, and even the short history has backed up that belief.

However, in hindsight, I have to go with the 75-76 combo of Boswell and Cook as the worst picks. Had we picked Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson there, we would have had a backcourt that won a championship in 79 to team with the Big Three. Or instead of DJ (since we eventually got him anyway), imagine throwing up Alex English with Bird, McHale, Parish and Max? Everybody talks about how if Bias had lived, he would have extended Bird and McHale's careers. English did play and excel in the NBA, and absolutely would have extended their careers. We would have been even more unstoppable, and doing those two picks better not only could but probably would have given us 2-3 extra titles in the late 70s and early 80s.

Picking Parker or Arenas or Wallace or Okur over Forte wouldn't have given us any more titles yet, although that could change in the coming years, so the Forte pick has time to get to number one.

Earl and Green were also bad picks, but I didn't really think that at the time. But considering we could have had Sam Cassell and David Lee, both have to be considered bombs. Sam Vincent was actually a pretty darn bad pick considering we could have taken Terry Porter to fill the same role much better.

Our worst pick in the first round, though, as mentioned, may have been Michael Smith 13th in 89, over Tim Hardaway, Dana Barros, Shawn Kemp, BJ Armstrong and Vlade Divac. This one, like Forte, we all knew was a terrible pick when it was made. Bias, in hindsight, was a terrible pick, but for 24 hours seemed like the beginning of another major dynasty, so I can't call it a bad pick, just a bad result.

and people wonder why I love this site!!!

[Roy Hobbs]

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

By this rationale you'd have to include GG because he was in the same package for KG. Also if TA is later in a package for a potential HOF player he'd be included. I think the logic is faulty, IMHO.

Um...  no.  Big Al was the centerpiece of the KG trade.  Kevin McHale coveted him, by all reports.  Without him, we don't get Garnett, and we don't win a championship.  Gerald was a throw in.  You're allowed to disagree, but please don't insult my logic.

[Roy Hobbs]

Roy - I'm surprised you would pick Jefferson. I figured lots of younger guys would choose Jefferson, mostly because they never saw Reggie. I don't know how old you are (nor do I care), but I know you were around to watch Reggie Lewis. What's the rationale?

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

Well, sure, if you had hindsight and knew about Reggie's heart, then I guess you'd have to shy away from him. But using that logic, how do you know Al doesn't have a heart problem? Or maybe more realistically a career-ending knee injury? And if you're not willing to speculate about a future injury, how can you speculate about a future all-star selection for Al. I'm a big fan of Al's, but he's not a slam-dunk all-star yet and there's no guarantee that he'll get there.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, I understand your rationale and don't begrudge your choice. I just happen to disagree with it.  

Isn't that what we're doing?  Applying hindsight?  I kind of thought that's what this thread was about.  Reggie unfortunately had a congenital heart defect, which limited him to only six seasons with the club.  I think that needs to be factored in when considering -- in hindsight -- how well the draft pick worked out for us.

If the measure of any draft pick is his usefulness to the franchise, I think the only way you can look at it is:  Reggie = 6 great years, Big Al = key piece that brought a championship here.  If Ainge had missed on the Big Al pick, this franchise would still be mired in mediocrity (to be generous); if we'd missed on Reggie, we probably wouldn't have ended up much differently than we did.  Reggie left some great memories; Big Al's impact was significantly bigger.

[paintitgreen]

Roy - I'm surprised you would pick Jefferson. I figured lots of younger guys would choose Jefferson, mostly because they never saw Reggie. I don't know how old you are (nor do I care), but I know you were around to watch Reggie Lewis. What's the rationale?

Reggie was a fabulous player, and in terms of talent, was a better all-around player than Big Al.  I think, though, that you have to take into account how their careers played out.  We were able to parlay Big Al into Kevin Garnett, and a title.  Reggie...  well, we all know how that one turned out.  If I was holding a redraft out of all the listed players, and knew what I knew today, I'd shy away from Reggie. 

He was a phenomenal player, though, and just in his prime when he passed away.  He was definitely one of the greats.  If he'd been healthy, I think a lot of us would be having "Who was better, Paul or Reggie?" conversations.

Well, sure, if you had hindsight and knew about Reggie's heart, then I guess you'd have to shy away from him. But using that logic, how do you know Al doesn't have a heart problem? Or maybe more realistically a career-ending knee injury? And if you're not willing to speculate about a future injury, how can you speculate about a future all-star selection for Al. I'm a big fan of Al's, but he's not a slam-dunk all-star yet and there's no guarantee that he'll get there.

Anyhow, at the end of the day, I understand your rationale and don't begrudge your choice. I just happen to disagree with it.  

Two things on the hindsight debate:

1. Even in hindsight, Reggie was a great pick because nobody else taken after him comes close in career accomplishments, even though Reggie only played six years. Strangely, the best player taken after Reggie was probably Sarunas Marciulionis, who went 127th overall to Golden State, and played 7 seasons before dying in a car accident. But he only played 350 or so games to Reggie's 450.

Only 7 players picked after Reggie played more games than he did: Chris Dudley (886 games for 5 teams in 16 seasons); Greg Anderson (680 games for 8 teams in 11 seasons); Brad Lohaus (our 2nd round pick, 656 games for 8 teams in 11 seasons); Kevin Gamble (649 games for 4 teams in 10 seasons, 6 with the Celtics); Winston Garland (511 games for 5 teams in 8 seasons); Donald Royal (504 games for 5 teams in 8 seasons); and Vincent Askew (467 games for 8 teams in 9 seasons). None scored more career points than Reggie's 7902. Even in only 6 seasons, he had the best career of any player selected 20 or higher. In fact, after the 11th pick (Reggie Miller), only Mark Jackson (19) had a better career than Reggie.

2. Even if Al has a career-ending injury, that will still be a fantastic pick in hindsight, because we got what we wanted out of it - a very good young player who was marketable enough to be traded for a veteran All-NBA player and MVP candidate who brought us a championship. No matter what happens with Al Jefferson, the quality of that pick is set in stone because of what it already produced for us.

The value of other picks might go up or down, and the value of Al's pick might grow if KG leads us to more titles, but it can't go any lower because of the value already received - we've gotten a better result from that pick than we got from any other pick on the list.

[ChampKind]

Best - Greg Kite - nearly unstoppable in Tecmo NBA Basketball

Worst - Al Jefferson - only played 3 years with the Celts, then left the team for some reason.