a link to raise the blood pressure of Celts fans everywhere

[Redz]

Oh good god...I was wondering why this thread kept going and going, so I at last went and perused through the 139 responses to Max's original post.  First, I must say there's a fine representation of CBers on there bashing back at Max.  I wasn't tempted enough to create an account on there (I'm a monogamous blogger ), but the thing that's killing me about his assessment of the Celtics efficiency based on their low amount of possessions is that he's assuming the Celtics low amount of possessions was due to them having a slow offense, when in fact it's at least as much, if not more so, due to their DEFENSE forcing opponents to chew up a ton of shot clock before taking a shot.

[Roy Hobbs]

This kid fell out of the ignorant tree, and hit every branch on the way down.

[Steve Weinman]

Oh good god...I was wondering why this thread kept going and going, so I at last went and perused through the 139 responses to Max's original post.  First, I must say there's a fine representation of CBers on there bashing back at Max.  I wasn't tempted enough to create an account on there (I'm a monogamous blogger ), but the thing that's killing me about his assessment of the Celtics efficiency based on their low amount of possessions is that he's assuming the Celtics low amount of possessions was due to them having a slow offense, when in fact it's at least as much, if not more so, due to their DEFENSE forcing opponents to chew up a ton of shot clock before taking a shot.

Yes, this quite frustrated me as well.  It looks like a situation where you can simply comment, and that's that.  After you post your first comment, they demand you start playing around with accounts.

I felt dirty just in even setting up an account with them; monblogamy really is the way, Redz  -- well at least with regard to Bleacher Report.  I wouldn't claim that there aren't a few other solid sites out there.

-sw

[Big Ticket]

Some of what he said to Ryan (Big Ticket, I would presume) is utterly appalling.

This is truly embarrassing to other writers in the blogosphere.

-sw

You guessed it  .  I cracked the case (someone else might've already).  Looking at his other posts, he is a big Mavs fan.  That's why he keeps bringing up Dirk.  He is tired of 10 years of criticism towards his favorite player's defense and is using KG as way to "bring it to light".  I have a feeling he is 16 or 17 years old and came to a conclusion (Dirk is good at D, KG isn't) before doing the research. 

But whatever... more power to him for making his voice heard (and taking the beating that it brought him). 

[Redz]

Some of what he said to Ryan (Big Ticket, I would presume) is utterly appalling.

This is truly embarrassing to other writers in the blogosphere.

-sw

You guessed it  .  I cracked the case (someone else might've already).  Looking at his other posts, he is a big Mavs fan.  That's why he keeps bringing up Dirk.  He is tired of 10 years of criticism towards his favorite player's defense and is using KG as way to "bring it to light".  I have a feeling he is 16 or 17 years old and came to a conclusion (Dirk is good at D, KG isn't) before doing the research. 

But whatever... more power to him for making his voice heard (and taking the beating that it brought him). 

I'll give him that, he seems to be enjoying the beating

[Bahku]

Oh I'm gonna have some fun with this...

Bring the pain, BT...

I couldn't resist upon coming home from work today to give that post a look to see if he actually responded with any substance. Foolish me. He attempted to take on a post of mine (about opp fg pct <posted under "greg"> but merely sidestepped all the facts that were presented, oh well. Yet just posted one more out of sheer lunacy 

I know, it's strangely addictive, it's like trying to narrow down where his particular brand of ignorance originates.  I've been posting under "Larry", and I realize it's pointless but it's difficult to stop.

ha! I agree. Kudos to Max for not resorting to the typical internet low depths (of course not seen around here) but actually attempting to engage in rational discussion. Now, his substance isn't rational but at least his demeanor is. Mine might have gone a little over board  Well nothing too cruel just an "I'm fed up, do you really believe what you write?"

Truth be told, I'm extremely disappointed in his demeanor.  He hasn't resorted to "shouting" (Internet-style), I guess, but at the same time, from reading his responses, it's clear to me that he hasn't even begun to make an effort to process what other people are telling him.  That doesn't impress me.  As I wrote earlier in this thread, when someone like him steps into something believing there is no chance he can be wrong no matter the evidence against him, it defeats the ideal of actual 'productive' or 'meaningful' discussion.  Granted, I've gotten sucked in and posted a couple of times...but ugh.  When your defense is "ALL the time, I disagree with accepted norms, and I'm right," I find that to be misplaced arrogance and bravado rather than something to respect.

That being said, I guess I should give Max some props for the fact that he has likely never lost any argument.  Ever.

Just putrid.

-sw

Well said, Steve, (as usual - TP) ... and again, when I read most anything, (actually, before I read it), I try to consider the source and it's history, (if possible). Max is a know-it-all ... I hate to use that phrase because it's so tacky, but it's the best way to describe him. When I apply the usual filters that I do to other writers, (such as perspective, bias, knowledge, objectivity, discernment, sources, resources, etc.), with Max, after all is said-and-done, I'm left with very little, (if any), content that is actually even worth considering. For that reason, and my past experiences with most of his detritus, I very rarely read anything attached to his name anymore, and I think I'm the better for it overall.

Nobody's ever going to win an argument with him, because his idea of discourse is more like dictation and admonishment, and on the rare occasions that he does show any latitude, it's still within the confines of the boundaries he sets forth. I think he does have some intelligence and talent with the written word, but he lacks a great deal of maturity and humility, (which excludes him from any sort of wisdom), and he just plain can't get out of his own way long enough to put forth much that's worth taking seriously. (IMHO, of course).

[bbc3341]

let's remember that this is an "article" on an open source web site, it's basically a post. This is not a journalist. He's just some guy with a laptop, no surprise that there are guys with laptops who don't know the game, or are incapable of intelligent back and forth...

[fairweatherfan]

Well, all I know is if I ever decide to troll CelticsBlog, it'll be by way of an pseudonymous article on something like Bleacher Report, that just "happens" to find its way here...

What's both frustrating and alluring about it is that Steve is right: the guy's not an idiot, he clearly knows some things about the game and has some general intelligence.  He just seems to be some mix of contrarian, deliberately obtuse, and willfully ignorant - like he gets a kick out of disagreeing with conventional wisdom and then feeling superior due to his "maverick" (pun intended) thinking.  The psychologist in me can't stop watching how he filters and twists everything and makes greater and more tenuous leaps of logic to support an ever-weakening argument.  I wonder if he'll ever crack...more likely if he does, he'll just stop posting.

[Steve Weinman]

Well, all I know is if I ever decide to troll CelticsBlog, it'll be by way of an pseudonymous article on something like Bleacher Report, that just "happens" to find its way here...

What's both frustrating and alluring about it is that Steve is right: the guy's not an idiot, he clearly knows some things about the game and has some general intelligence.  He just seems to be some mix of contrarian, deliberately obtuse, and willfully ignorant - like he gets a kick out of disagreeing with conventional wisdom and then feeling superior due to his "maverick" (pun intended) thinking.  The psychologist in me can't stop watching how he filters and twists everything and makes greater and more tenuous leaps of logic to support an ever-weakening argument.  I wonder if he'll ever crack...more likely if he does, he'll just stop posting.

Alluring indeed, in a weird way.  I couldn't help but chime in on BT's behalf after Max's latest bit of absurdity.  Just a quick line was all.

I don't know that I said he "knows some things about the game", but then again, he does seem pretty cognizant of the fact that a) the Mavs have lost a few playoff series and b) Avery got fired 

Either way, I think we're on the same page.

-sw

[GLS]

After his latest comments:

Something big...

Let me think about it..

and....

Rome wasn't built in a day. I do think I have put a giant crack in it though.. give me time. I will bust it.

I could not resist, so I wanted to comment that if he was still working on this myth and whatnot FIVE days after originally posting it, then he really never had it to begin with.

But alas, I  am now receiving a 405 error message.

Maybe I was banned 

[Steve Weinman]

After his latest comments:

Something big...

Let me think about it..

and....

Rome wasn't built in a day. I do think I have put a giant crack in it though.. give me time. I will bust it.

I could not resist, so I wanted to comment that if he was still working on this myth and whatnot FIVE days after originally posting it, then he really never had it to begin with.

But alas, I  am now receiving a 405 error message.

Maybe I was banned 

Given his latest comment to me (indented above), I think I may tell him that I'm impressed with his ability to remain so humble despite his omniscience.

Whatever.

-sw

[Bahku]

After his latest comments:

Something big...

Let me think about it..

and....

Rome wasn't built in a day. I do think I have put a giant crack in it though.. give me time. I will bust it.

I could not resist, so I wanted to comment that if he was still working on this myth and whatnot FIVE days after originally posting it, then he really never had it to begin with.

But alas, I  am now receiving a 405 error message.

Maybe I was banned 

Given his latest comment to me (indented above), I think I may tell him that I'm impressed with his ability to remain so humble despite his omniscience.

Whatever.

-sw

I truly admire your tenacity, Steve, and applaud the effort, but as I intimated below, you can't win an argument with a know-it-all ... and this guy's not worth the time invested. Guys like this amaze me ... they just love to stir the pot, but they could care less how the chowder tastes when it's done. 

[fairweatherfan]

Well, all I know is if I ever decide to troll CelticsBlog, it'll be by way of an pseudonymous article on something like Bleacher Report, that just "happens" to find its way here...

What's both frustrating and alluring about it is that Steve is right: the guy's not an idiot, he clearly knows some things about the game and has some general intelligence.  He just seems to be some mix of contrarian, deliberately obtuse, and willfully ignorant - like he gets a kick out of disagreeing with conventional wisdom and then feeling superior due to his "maverick" (pun intended) thinking.  The psychologist in me can't stop watching how he filters and twists everything and makes greater and more tenuous leaps of logic to support an ever-weakening argument.  I wonder if he'll ever crack...more likely if he does, he'll just stop posting.

Alluring indeed, in a weird way.  I couldn't help but chime in on BT's behalf after Max's latest bit of absurdity.  Just a quick line was all.

I don't know that I said he "knows some things about the game", but then again, he does seem pretty cognizant of the fact that a) the Mavs have lost a few playoff series and b) Avery got fired 

Either way, I think we're on the same page.

-sw

Yeah - I was referring to the fact that he's starting from a kernel of truth: a slower pace and efficient offense will boost your defensive numbers, because scoring regularly in a slower game means your opponents have fewer opportunities to score in transition - almost any team will put up better defensive #s when they can run half-court defense more often, compared to transition D.  Efficiency stats don't fully account for this because they don't factor in what kind of defensive scenarios a team regularly encounters, only what they tend to do across an equal number of possessions.  This in and of itself is actually something of a valid point, though it's hard to know what impact it really has.

But he's taking it way too far and saying we didn't have an independently good defense at all.  Of course, over the course of the comments he's said that KG, Pierce, Kobe, and Bruce Bowen are all lousy defenders, and that there aren't ANY good defenders or defenses in the NBA, so I think the point is moot: he had to turn it into "there are NO good defenses" to support his claim that the Celtics fall into that group. 

Anyway, thanks for the link, was a good way to while away a few hours.  And I enjoyed it in an odd sort of way. 

[Steve Weinman]

After his latest comments:

Something big...

Let me think about it..

and....

Rome wasn't built in a day. I do think I have put a giant crack in it though.. give me time. I will bust it.

I could not resist, so I wanted to comment that if he was still working on this myth and whatnot FIVE days after originally posting it, then he really never had it to begin with.

But alas, I  am now receiving a 405 error message.

Maybe I was banned 

Given his latest comment to me (indented above), I think I may tell him that I'm impressed with his ability to remain so humble despite his omniscience.

Whatever.

-sw

I truly admire your tenacity, Steve, and applaud the effort, but as I intimated below, you can't win an argument with a know-it-all ... and this guy's not worth the time invested. Guys like this amaze me ... they just love to stir the pot, but they could care less how the chowder tastes when it's done. 

Thanks for the kind words Bahku...but really, your cool head is far more to value here.  As you say, it isn't worth getting riled about.

As I said to Big Ticket earlier tonight, you know what's kind of cool?  That we're the ones purchasing 2008 champs gear, while the poor Mavs fan looks for ways to put the boys in green down.  The ring is worth more than his word...I think I can be satisfied with that one 

Really, my frustration is less with him at this point than the dissemination I brought up earlier, but I need some sleep, so the "Power of the pen" rant part II (which will sound eerily like part I) will have to wait.

-sw

[Bahku]

After his latest comments:

Something big...

Let me think about it..

and....

Rome wasn't built in a day. I do think I have put a giant crack in it though.. give me time. I will bust it.

I could not resist, so I wanted to comment that if he was still working on this myth and whatnot FIVE days after originally posting it, then he really never had it to begin with.

But alas, I  am now receiving a 405 error message.

Maybe I was banned 

Given his latest comment to me (indented above), I think I may tell him that I'm impressed with his ability to remain so humble despite his omniscience.

Whatever.

-sw

I truly admire your tenacity, Steve, and applaud the effort, but as I intimated below, you can't win an argument with a know-it-all ... and this guy's not worth the time invested. Guys like this amaze me ... they just love to stir the pot, but they could care less how the chowder tastes when it's done. 

Thanks for the kind words Bahku...but really, your cool head is far more to value here.  As you say, it isn't worth getting riled about.

As I said to Big Ticket earlier tonight, you know what's kind of cool?  That we're the ones purchasing 2008 champs gear, while the poor Mavs fan looks for ways to put the boys in green down.  The ring is worth more than his word...I think I can be satisfied with that one 

Really, my frustration is less with him at this point than the dissemination I brought up earlier, but I need some sleep, so the "Power of the pen" rant part II (which will sound eerily like part I) will have to wait.

-sw

I hear you, Bud ... I'm headed off to Slumberland myself. By the way, this guy isn't worthy of refilling your pen, (let alone doing battle with a word-warrior of your caliber), despite his "superiority" over the rest of human kind.