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Beyond the Association => College Basketball => Topic started by: esel1000 on February 15, 2018, 10:00:41 PM

Title: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: esel1000 on February 15, 2018, 10:00:41 PM
https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-college-hoops-corruption-case-poised-take-hall-fame-coaches-top-programs-lottery-picks-224417174.html

The world of college basketball is about to be ROCKED.

There are so many possible implications... do more top HS players go oversees instead of college?
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: nickagneta on February 15, 2018, 10:44:23 PM
If some reporter can get a hold of all this info and get it out in the public soon, the NCAA tournament is screwed.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Kuberski33 on February 15, 2018, 10:49:30 PM
The hypocrisy that is the NCAA is about to be exposed it sounds like.  March Madness baby...get those brackets ready...
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Jiri Welsch on February 15, 2018, 10:59:58 PM
Sounds like the FBI doesn’t have intentions to release the info any time soon. Also, does anyone really care? Is it cheating if everyone’s doing it? I for one was never under the illusion that these kids were true student athletes.

I played college sports (hardo) and can tell you that no one is more excited to see the NCAA crumble than I. It’s unpaid labor. The textbooks have a word for unpaid labor. I’ll let you figure that one out!
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Kuberski33 on February 15, 2018, 11:28:24 PM
It got serious implications for corporate sponsorship of the tournament and NCAA in general. The way companies try to protect their brands these days no one's going to want to associate itself with an organization that the public thinks (or better yet, finally realizes) is corrupt.

Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Jiri Welsch on February 16, 2018, 12:14:18 AM
It got serious implications for corporate sponsorship of the tournament and NCAA in general. The way companies try to protect their brands these days no one's going to want to associate itself with an organization that the public thinks (or better yet, finally realizes) is corrupt.

You mean like the NFL? March Madness is a cultural moment for millions of people, I think the advertisers will stay put.

I hope you’re right though.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 16, 2018, 03:24:57 AM
Sounds like the FBI doesn’t have intentions to release the info any time soon. Also, does anyone really care? Is it cheating if everyone’s doing it? I for one was never under the illusion that these kids were true student athletes.

I played college sports (hardo) and can tell you that no one is more excited to see the NCAA crumble than I. It’s unpaid labor. The textbooks have a word for unpaid labor. I’ll let you figure that one out!

Is it unpaid if you get an athletic scholarship though?

When does it stop being fun and become labor? Should high school students get paid too? College athletes will always be amateurs.

I understand the universities make tons and tons of money off these athletes, but the programs fund the schools many programs (and of course fatttt salaries to the coaches and AD’s). But if you start paying student athletes, you are going to open up a whole new world of corruption.

Do ALL athletes get paid the same? Are their tiers? Experience? Can they have agents?

I agree the NCAA is horrible and needs a compete overhaul, it’s just going to take a lot of time. I’m ready to see this unfold though.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: JSD on February 16, 2018, 05:11:35 AM
Good. Maybe the NBA will start investing in a legitimate minor league. College basketball has been a racket sponging off these players for over 30 years.

Bye!
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: esel1000 on February 16, 2018, 10:11:43 AM
Sounds like the FBI doesn’t have intentions to release the info any time soon. Also, does anyone really care? Is it cheating if everyone’s doing it? I for one was never under the illusion that these kids were true student athletes.

I played college sports (hardo) and can tell you that no one is more excited to see the NCAA crumble than I. It’s unpaid labor. The textbooks have a word for unpaid labor. I’ll let you figure that one out!

Is it unpaid if you get an athletic scholarship though?

When does it stop being fun and become labor? Should high school students get paid too? College athletes will always be amateurs.

I understand the universities make tons and tons of money off these athletes, but the programs fund the schools many programs (and of course fatttt salaries to the coaches and AD’s). But if you start paying student athletes, you are going to open up a whole new world of corruption.

Do ALL athletes get paid the same? Are their tiers? Experience? Can they have agents?

I agree the NCAA is horrible and needs a compete overhaul, it’s just going to take a lot of time. I’m ready to see this unfold though.

That’s pretty much how I feel as well. Paying players is super murky, though I do understand both sides of the argument.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: CFAN38 on February 16, 2018, 10:22:03 AM
Honestly as long as the cheating isn't on the court (fixing an actual game) it has no effect on me or any other fan. NCAA basketball is big business and university and coaches benefit from having elite programs. In order to have an elite program you need to have elite players. This can create an ugly behind the scene world that we are more often getting a glimpse of.

I hope we some day have a true basketball developmental league and clean college basketball as entertaining as the current NCAA is it can never be either of those things.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: ChillyWilly on February 16, 2018, 11:08:02 AM
I hope this collapses college basketball. I'm heavily invested in the Big Baller Jr League or whatever my business partner Lavar is calling it. We going to speak this league into existence and take down the NCAA with those same words :D
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: gift on February 16, 2018, 11:08:09 AM
NCAA could have gradually made changes to prevent this. But they maintained a foolish premise for years that led everyone involved to bend/break the rules. It's a poor game design when all participants are required to cheat. Just change the rules and you can accomplish the same without the violations.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: PhoSita on February 16, 2018, 11:45:53 AM
I hope the whole things burns down.  Honestly.  The NCAA is a corrupt racket.

They should pay the kids or lose all the $$ they bring in that doesn't get used for student scholarships, campus improvements, etc.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: PhoSita on February 16, 2018, 11:52:32 AM

Is it unpaid if you get an athletic scholarship though?


What's the ratio between the value provided to the students and the value provided to the NCAA / schools?  How much money are they generating?

If the answer is "lopsided," isn't that an artificial market condition created to greatly advantage the owners and greatly disadvantage the laborers in this scenario?  It's not "slavery" -- the word the previous poster was alluding to -- but isn't it similar to indentured servitude?


How many of these "student athletes" graduate?  How many of them end up with gainful employment as a result of the great education they're getting?

How many of these "student athletes" would ever go to college at all if it weren't for this arrangement that requires them to do so for a year or two in order to pursue their actual career aspiration, i.e. professional sports?


At the very least the elite tier schools that enjoy the benefits of having these star amateur athletes wearing their uniforms should be required to create a separate school & program for students that intend to go into sports as a career.  There should be a system created for allowing the students to go on learning and working toward their degrees even after they go pro and stop playing for the school.  And there should be a penalty paid by the school for any scholarship athlete that doesn't end up earning their degree.

Oh, and the schools should be required to provide medical coverage for any and all injuries sustained during the course of playing sports for the benefit of the schools.  Including cumulative injuries that are only discovered later.  That medical coverage should last for life, and the schools should be required to pay compensation to the students for any lasting disability resulting from injuries the students sustain.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 16, 2018, 01:02:02 PM
The problem with college athletics and the pay structure, is there are so many significant differences between the future earning potential of players, schools, etc. that it is hard to find a stead fast rule.  Even on the super elite basketball programs, generally less than half of the athletes will play professionally.  Very few athletic programs even make money.  Sure the football and basketball programs at the top level schools make gobs of money, but most college sports lose significant money and as a result most athletic programs lose money. 

Here is an article from December 2014, in which a US Representative said only 20 FBS programs made money  http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/.  Politfact said that was a true statement.  On average, football netted 3 million, men's basketball netted 340k and every other sport lost money, and most lost significant amounts, such that the average for the 120 or so schools was a loss of 11.6 million dollars per year by their athletic departments. 

So with rules like Title IX and other equality rules, how exactly do you pay football and basketball players, but not pay women's volleyball, or ice hockey, or soccer, or track and field, etc.  You just can't do it.   

The only logical solution is to make it so the top of the line players aren't in college.  Let them go to a minor or developmental league, or you know the top league right away. 
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: PhoSita on February 16, 2018, 01:53:06 PM
The problem with college athletics and the pay structure, is there are so many significant differences between the future earning potential of players, schools, etc. that it is hard to find a stead fast rule.  Even on the super elite basketball programs, generally less than half of the athletes will play professionally.  Very few athletic programs even make money.  Sure the football and basketball programs at the top level schools make gobs of money, but most college sports lose significant money and as a result most athletic programs lose money. 

Here is an article from December 2014, in which a US Representative said only 20 FBS programs made money  http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/.  Politfact said that was a true statement.  On average, football netted 3 million, men's basketball netted 340k and every other sport lost money, and most lost significant amounts, such that the average for the 120 or so schools was a loss of 11.6 million dollars per year by their athletic departments. 

So with rules like Title IX and other equality rules, how exactly do you pay football and basketball players, but not pay women's volleyball, or ice hockey, or soccer, or track and field, etc.  You just can't do it.   

The only logical solution is to make it so the top of the line players aren't in college.  Let them go to a minor or developmental league, or you know the top league right away.

I think it's fair to say the problem here is the very top programs that generate all the money and get all the national attention.

Those programs -- which are in essence quasi-sports franchises in and of themselves -- should be separated from the rest and treated differently.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: gift on February 16, 2018, 02:26:41 PM
The problem with college athletics and the pay structure, is there are so many significant differences between the future earning potential of players, schools, etc. that it is hard to find a stead fast rule.  Even on the super elite basketball programs, generally less than half of the athletes will play professionally.  Very few athletic programs even make money.  Sure the football and basketball programs at the top level schools make gobs of money, but most college sports lose significant money and as a result most athletic programs lose money. 

Here is an article from December 2014, in which a US Representative said only 20 FBS programs made money  http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2014/dec/22/jim-moran/moran-says-only-20-colleges-make-profit-sports/.  Politfact said that was a true statement.  On average, football netted 3 million, men's basketball netted 340k and every other sport lost money, and most lost significant amounts, such that the average for the 120 or so schools was a loss of 11.6 million dollars per year by their athletic departments. 

So with rules like Title IX and other equality rules, how exactly do you pay football and basketball players, but not pay women's volleyball, or ice hockey, or soccer, or track and field, etc.  You just can't do it.   

The only logical solution is to make it so the top of the line players aren't in college.  Let them go to a minor or developmental league, or you know the top league right away.

Well, you could start by allowing them to be paid rather than paying them directly. Allow players to market themselves etc.

But I'd prefer to see a better developmental league anyway.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on February 16, 2018, 02:50:54 PM
Good.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 16, 2018, 03:01:16 PM

Is it unpaid if you get an athletic scholarship though?


What's the ratio between the value provided to the students and the value provided to the NCAA / schools?  How much money are they generating?

If the answer is "lopsided," isn't that an artificial market condition created to greatly advantage the owners and greatly disadvantage the laborers in this scenario?  It's not "slavery" -- the word the previous poster was alluding to -- but isn't it similar to indentured servitude?


How many of these "student athletes" graduate?  How many of them end up with gainful employment as a result of the great education they're getting?

How many of these "student athletes" would ever go to college at all if it weren't for this arrangement that requires them to do so for a year or two in order to pursue their actual career aspiration, i.e. professional sports?


At the very least the elite tier schools that enjoy the benefits of having these star amateur athletes wearing their uniforms should be required to create a separate school & program for students that intend to go into sports as a career.  There should be a system created for allowing the students to go on learning and working toward their degrees even after they go pro and stop playing for the school.  And there should be a penalty paid by the school for any scholarship athlete that doesn't end up earning their degree.

Oh, and the schools should be required to provide medical coverage for any and all injuries sustained during the course of playing sports for the benefit of the schools.  Including cumulative injuries that are only discovered later.  That medical coverage should last for life, and the schools should be required to pay compensation to the students for any lasting disability resulting from injuries the students sustain.

But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you don’t think they are making more off him than that?

What about the scholars that bring in more money for the school? Should they be compensated beyond a full academic scholarship?

I personally am not a huge college fan so maybe I’m wrong, but aren’t the programs what create the money, not necessarily the individual players themselves? Like did Kentucky suffer by not having Fultz play for them? Did UCLA crumble when Ball left? Think of the ramifications of a star like LeBron leaving the Cavs.

The reason schools enjoy these star amateur athletes at their school is because of the pro leagues rules that require they be X years removed from high school. They DO receive the benefit of learning the game and enhancing their skills. I’ve never heard of a case where a player would have been so much better had he jumped straight to the pros instead of going to college.

So the non stars get a free education, and the stars hone their skills. It may not be fair value, but it’s certainly not nothing.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: PhoSita on February 16, 2018, 04:18:25 PM

But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you don’t think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 16, 2018, 04:29:26 PM

But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you don’t think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Actually most college athletes do in fact graduate and they graduate at higher percentages than the regular student population.  It is typically well over 80% of all college athletes graduate within 6 years of first enrolling (football and basketball do have the lowest rates, but a lot of that is those are the athletes most likely to leave to pursue professional careers in sport).  All student graduation rates are generally in the 60's as a percentage.  In other words, college athletes graduate at a higher rate and with less debt (since most athletes get some form of scholarship). 

There are plenty of reasons to not like the NCAA system, you don't need to just make stuff up that just isn't true to support the awfulness of college athletics.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: nickagneta on February 16, 2018, 04:38:20 PM

But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you don’t think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Actually most college athletes do in fact graduate and they graduate at higher percentages than the regular student population.  It is typically well over 80% of all college athletes graduate within 6 years of first enrolling (football and basketball do have the lowest rates, but a lot of that is those are the athletes most likely to leave to pursue professional careers in sport).  All student graduation rates are generally in the 60's as a percentage.  In other words, college athletes graduate at a higher rate and with less debt (since most athletes get some form of scholarship). 

There are plenty of reasons to not like the NCAA system, you don't need to just make stuff up that just isn't true to support the awfulness of college athletics.
So what are the percentages for football and men's basketball players? Rather than skewing the percentages by using every college athlete, don't you think it would be pertinent to include those percentages since thats what most of the conversation is about?
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 16, 2018, 04:57:05 PM

But what is that ratio for professionals? Do you think the league makes more off LeBron than his $33M salary (or whatever it is)? Nike pays Jordan like $100M a year still, you don’t think they are making more off him than that?


The professionals at least make enough money to provide for themselves and their families, and it's many times greater than what they could hope to make in some other profession with the same level of education.

So yeah, in any business the people who own the means of production, so to speak, are going to be making most of the money.  At the very least the people whose labor (and in the case of star players, whose personal likeness) generates revenue ought to be able to make a decent living off the proceeds.

Many of these college athletes never graduate, never make the pros, don't get a decent paying job out of it, and don't end up with any money in the bank (at least not by legitimate means).
Actually most college athletes do in fact graduate and they graduate at higher percentages than the regular student population.  It is typically well over 80% of all college athletes graduate within 6 years of first enrolling (football and basketball do have the lowest rates, but a lot of that is those are the athletes most likely to leave to pursue professional careers in sport).  All student graduation rates are generally in the 60's as a percentage.  In other words, college athletes graduate at a higher rate and with less debt (since most athletes get some form of scholarship). 

There are plenty of reasons to not like the NCAA system, you don't need to just make stuff up that just isn't true to support the awfulness of college athletics.
So what are the percentages for football and men's basketball players? Rather than skewing the percentages by using every college athlete, don't you think it would be pertinent to include those percentages since thats what most of the conversation is about?
But you can't pay just football and basketball players and not the other sports.  It is illegal.  So any change in the system has to affect all sports.  That said the football and men's basketball players are around 70%, still above the regular population, but much closer to it.  Of course there are plenty of reasons for that.  Obviously, many end up leaving early to pursue a professional career (that happens in other fields as well, like music, drama, computer programming, etc. but it is less common).  Those two sports are also often comprised of a much larger percentage of people that if not for the sport would not be in college at all as a result of their upbringing, financial capability, etc. 

The simple reality is the structure of playing a college sport, needing to remain eligible to do so, and the institutional support provided for that purpose (i.e. scholarships, tutors, etc.) yield a far higher percentage of graduates than the regular population. 
Title: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
Post by: stb on February 23, 2018, 08:34:47 AM
...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 23, 2018, 08:54:22 AM
Quote
The ongoing federal investigation into corruption in college basketball has unearthed new financial documents which appear to link former NBA agent Andy Miller's ASM Sports to a litany of prominent basketball players - relationships which would likely contravene the very nucleus of NCAA amateurism.

The documents, obtained by Yahoo Sports' Pat Forde and Pete Thamel, include a balance sheet entitled "Loan to Players." That document features a list of purported cash advances to notable players now among the professional ranks, including - but by no means limited to - Toronto Raptors All-Star Kyle Lowry, Philadelphia 76ers 2017 No. 1 draft pick Markelle Fultz, Los Angeles Lakers rookie Kyle Kuzma, Dallas Mavericks rookie Dennis Smith Jr., and Miami Heat rookie Bam Adebayo.

I'm sure a million other names will surface, just sharing another new report.

https://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1491549 (https://www.thescore.com/ncaab/news/1491549)
Title: Re: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 23, 2018, 08:56:56 AM
...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
ASM Sports "loans" Dennis Smith 73k and he doesn't sign with them.  Wonder how much the agency that Smith did sign with "loaned" him? 
Title: Re: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 23, 2018, 09:04:40 AM
...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html
ASM Sports "loans" Dennis Smith 73k and he doesn't sign with them.  Wonder how much the agency that Smith did sign with "loaned" him?

Quote
There’s potential impermissible benefits and preferential treatment for players and families of players at Duke, North Carolina, Texas, Kentucky, Michigan State, USC, Alabama and a host of other schools. The documents link some of the sport’s biggest current stars – Michigan State’s Miles Bridges, Alabama’s Collin Sexton and Duke’s Wendell Carter – to specific potential extra benefits for either the athletes or their family members. The amounts tied to players in the case range from basic meals to tens of thousands of dollars.

I always wondered if Duke was the one program above this stuff purely out of respect for Coach K.  Despite how irrational it sounds, I honestly believed it was possible.  But it's probably safe to say that every major program -- and many other mid to low tier D1 schools -- are all guilty of the same.
Title: Re: Federal documents detail sweeping potential NCAA violations...
Post by: bdm860 on February 23, 2018, 09:17:31 AM
...involving high-profile players, schools.

https://sports.yahoo.com/exclusive-federal-documents-detail-sweeping-potential-ncaa-violations-involving-high-profile-players-schools-103338484.html

The pictures included in this article are the most interesting thing to me (some of them are big, so you may have to scroll over or right click to view image to see the whole thing):

(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/dAnMEi5SXMgsczN3JJ1Leg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/96e16f6a4c59110f79886134bba30a51)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/g8JRdbV3Hh9VfzoJNv2WSQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/2be68fc11ad3d9ec0c97bf2bd373a509)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/3jAGowFBJrBROG8WJlQaug--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTIwMDtoPTY1NA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/6e580e7eaca201da7fda4c4dd32738ae)
(https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/tyWOfAULUW0RtpR1QYph3Q--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9MTI4MDtoPTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en/homerun/feed_manager_auto_publish_494/7a6210544b45c59b759fc6809b01c750)
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Donoghus on February 23, 2018, 09:55:42 AM
Unbelievable.  "Loans to Players" right there on the balance sheet.  Way to keep things incognito. 

Interesting to see names like Haywood & Jefferies as loans receivable on a 12/31/15 balance sheet when those guys have been out of college for over a decade at that point.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Kuberski33 on February 23, 2018, 10:19:05 AM
The entire system is corrupt - and not just the football and basketball programs.  The universities themselves that condone this stuff - because it helps attract paying students to their schools - at ridiculously inflated prices causing them to run up tons of debt that smothers them economically for years to come...) And then there's NBA and NFL which use Div 1 (at least the major conferences) as a no cost minor league.

I really think we're going to see some change in basketball because the NCAA is going to feel the pain from losing some major sponsors - and for the NBA their biggest benefit right now is they don't have to bring the top talent in right out of high school and babysit these guys for a year.

The games themselves are different.  Different rules, different style of play.  I think the only thing that keeps it going is the 'free' aspect and many owners see it as a better alternative than plowing too much money into their own training programs.

The question is how much 'embarrassment' can the NBA and NCAA take before the negatives of the current 'system' supersede the no cost benefit?
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: rondofan1255 on February 23, 2018, 12:57:56 PM
not surprised at all
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on February 23, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
The NCAA is largely a hypocritical joke. If schools can make millions off these players (and they do), the players should be able to receive compensation. I think the power schools/conferences should sever ties with the NCAA and have their own association with their own tournament.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: KGs Knee on February 23, 2018, 01:23:11 PM
The NCAA is largely a hypocritical joke. If schools can make millions off these players (and they do), the players should be able to receive compensation. I think the power schools/conferences should sever ties with the NCAA and have their own association with their own tournament.

Yeah, the big time basketball and football programs really have no need to be associated with the NCAA. They should just cuts ties with them so they can freely pay their players whatever they want. By considering the players "employees" there would be no need to worry about Title IX compliance either.

If the top athletes are going to be forced to waste their time playing in college when they could already be pros if not for stupid rules preventing them from going pro, then they should be paid. I don't really care if they get paid legally or otherwise. But it'd be a lot better for the schools to find a way to do it legally.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: rondofan1255 on February 23, 2018, 10:13:43 PM
Ayton allegedly paid 100k

Quote
FBI wiretaps show Sean Miller discussed $100K payment to lock recruit

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: TheisTheisBaby on February 23, 2018, 10:19:01 PM
Oh the justice if Duke got busted.  The most coddled team in college basketball by the media and refs getting busted?  ESPN wouldn't know what to do. 
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: esel1000 on February 23, 2018, 10:29:44 PM
Ayton allegedly paid 100k

Quote
FBI wiretaps show Sean Miller discussed $100K payment to lock recruit

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation

The dominoes are falling
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: nickagneta on February 24, 2018, 10:54:46 AM
If some reporter can get a hold of all this info and get it out in the public soon, the NCAA tournament is screwed.
Finally got a prediction right!
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2018, 12:19:37 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Eja117 on February 24, 2018, 12:36:57 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares
I also sorta feel this way
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: nickagneta on February 24, 2018, 01:38:43 PM
Ayton allegedly paid 100k

Quote
FBI wiretaps show Sean Miller discussed $100K payment to lock recruit

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22559284/sean-miller-arizona-christian-dawkins-discussed-payment-ensure-deandre-ayton-signing-according-fbi-investigation

The dominoes are falling
Probably will eventually cost Miller his career and Ayton for the year. Say bye bye to the tournament Zona.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2018, 01:45:20 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 24, 2018, 01:54:58 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Eja117 on February 24, 2018, 02:01:39 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.
I could definitely see it as the coaches and agents not acting in the interest of the kid. The kid is being traded like cattle and doesn't even necessarily know it.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2018, 02:02:22 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.

A coach at a state school is paid tens of thousands of dollars by an agent to direct athletes to that agent’s agency.  This is contrary to school and NCAA rules.

How is that not a bribe? Any time you’re paying off a government official to give you an impermissible benefit, it’s bribery.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: green_bballers13 on February 24, 2018, 02:37:07 PM
I do think that such acts are illegal. At the same time, I wish the FBI would finish every important case that they have before they start down this rabbit hole. I feel that only naive people would be surprised that college bball coaches are bribing players and agents, and in the grand scheme of things, this seems like a very low priority.

I'm not really sure how to prevent this from happening, besides big brother monitoring every conversation that every coach has with every recruit. A tall task for an agency that has not been able to finish other investigations.

Is anyone actually offended by these scandals? I feel that it has been happening for such a long time that it is almost old news. Sort of like lobbyists bribing politicians to pass legislation.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Kuberski33 on February 24, 2018, 03:15:40 PM
Technically it's amateur athletics - and there's some corruption - so what, it's been going on forever.. But I think the real story here is the corruption of the American higher education system.

These schools are supposed to be institutions of higher learning preparing kids for their adult lives on one hand and on the other they're allowing this stuff to go on with their athletic departments - looking the other way on bribes, students (athletes) being bought and sold like they're products, athletes being shuffled to 'advisors' who don't necessarily have their best interests at heart, and a joke being made of the term 'student/athlete' - all so they can have athletic teams that help promote the school and ultimately attract students who fund their bottom line. 

Meanwhile the cost of attending these schools for regular students skyrockets and they get saddled with debt that stays with them for years. You can't really even declare bankruptcy to escape it.

The schools make tons of money, the administrators make tons of money, there's lots of shady activity, the NBA gets a free training ground for future players (such as it is at the present time) - and the ones getting screwed are the kids who attend the school as students, pay for the privilege and windup thousands and thousands of dollars in debt.

This FBI thing is kind of like a door finally being opened so people can look inside only this time the dirt can't be pushed under the carpet by the NCAA.

Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2018, 03:38:30 PM
Quote
I do think that such acts are illegal. At the same time, I wish the FBI would finish every important case that they have before they start down this rabbit hole.

I agree. Using three years of FBI resources on this seems like a decision based upon publicity, rather than advancing the best interests of the public.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: green_bballers13 on February 24, 2018, 04:35:49 PM
The schools make tons of money, the administrators make tons of money, there's lots of shady activity, the NBA gets a free training ground for future players (such as it is at the present time) - and the ones getting screwed are the kids who attend the school as students, pay for the privilege and windup thousands and thousands of dollars in debt.


I agree that there appears to be some type of market dislocation re: college. It really shouldn't cost $100-200k to get a bachelor's degree. I think the FBI could try a case for 20 years before even thinking about the cost of education for normal people. IMO this, like so many other things, will be an issue that will be kicked down the road for future generations to deal with.

Ayton, Miller, and Arizona are done for the year. Shaq's kid just decommitted. I'm sure this will hurt Arizona for a couple years, but let's be honest: they'll be back. Other programs will continue to bribe to get the best talent.

Paying Ayton $100k is over the line. Too much money to be considered even close to reasonable for some type of recruiting trip.

Flying in recruits and their families, putting them up at a decent hotel and taking them all out to nice restaurants seems like a decent guideline for recruiting. The issue is that many top athletes have already unofficially signed with agents while in AAU, and those agents go to work to prove their worth to their young clients. It's a competitive enterprise and college basketball coaches are ruthless.

It's going to take intensive government monitoring to stop these actions.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 24, 2018, 05:03:28 PM
Sean Miller's immediate portrait as the Fall Guy for massive organizational corrupt is pretty funny right now.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: KingChre on February 24, 2018, 05:14:12 PM
But you can't pay just football and basketball players and not the other sports.  It is illegal.  So any change in the system has to affect all sports.  That said the football and men's basketball players are around 70%, still above the regular population, but much closer to it.  Of course there are plenty of reasons for that.  Obviously, many end up leaving early to pursue a professional career (that happens in other fields as well, like music, drama, computer programming, etc. but it is less common).  Those two sports are also often comprised of a much larger percentage of people that if not for the sport would not be in college at all as a result of their upbringing, financial capability, etc. 

The simple reality is the structure of playing a college sport, needing to remain eligible to do so, and the institutional support provided for that purpose (i.e. scholarships, tutors, etc.) yield a far higher percentage of graduates than the regular population.

It's a very simple solution. They apply the Olympic model. The schools do not pay the athletes anything other than the scholarship money. It doesn't violate Title IX. Yes boosters will pay the athletes, but they already do. The athletes will be able to get paid on whatever the free market determines their value to be. Just like literally every other field, and nobody has a problem with it.

It's completely and utterly ridiculous that the FBI is involved with this. Where is the moral crisis here? These athletes are being paid because they are good at what they do. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 25, 2018, 09:18:24 AM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.

A coach at a state school is paid tens of thousands of dollars by an agent to direct athletes to that agent’s agency.  This is contrary to school and NCAA rules.

How is that not a bribe? Any time you’re paying off a government official to give you an impermissible benefit, it’s bribery.
the story thus week was the players getting paid by agents. That is not illegal nor a bribe
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Roy H. on February 25, 2018, 09:41:14 AM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.

A coach at a state school is paid tens of thousands of dollars by an agent to direct athletes to that agent’s agency.  This is contrary to school and NCAA rules.

How is that not a bribe? Any time you’re paying off a government official to give you an impermissible benefit, it’s bribery.
the story thus week was the players getting paid by agents. That is not illegal nor a bribe

You asked about why the FBI was involved. The story that has been out for months involves assistant coaches taking money to secure clients. That’s clear bribery.

Is it illegal for a government official to funnel $100k to a prospect?  I don’t know enough about the law, but I suspect the legality depends on where the money comes from.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Granath on February 25, 2018, 09:42:31 AM
Oh the justice if Duke got busted.  The most coddled team in college basketball by the media and refs getting busted?  ESPN wouldn't know what to do.

That you're hoping that a program with no allegations against it is somehow found dirty says a lot about you.

But nothing good.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Roy H. on February 25, 2018, 09:55:22 AM
Oh the justice if Duke got busted.  The most coddled team in college basketball by the media and refs getting busted?  ESPN wouldn't know what to do.

That you're hoping that a program with no allegations against it is somehow found dirty says a lot about you.

But nothing good.

Don’t make it personal, please.

At the same time, the NCAA has already cleared Carter for the expenses listed in the report (a $100 Longhorn dinner his mom attended).
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 25, 2018, 11:07:30 AM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.

A coach at a state school is paid tens of thousands of dollars by an agent to direct athletes to that agent’s agency.  This is contrary to school and NCAA rules.

How is that not a bribe? Any time you’re paying off a government official to give you an impermissible benefit, it’s bribery.
the story thus week was the players getting paid by agents. That is not illegal nor a bribe

You asked about why the FBI was involved. The story that has been out for months involves assistant coaches taking money to secure clients. That’s clear bribery.

Is it illegal for a government official to funnel $100k to a prospect?  I don’t know enough about the law, but I suspect the legality depends on where the money comes from.
a lot of the schools are private though, but yeah a government official couldn't serve as a middle man for money, but if the government official never actually touches the money it is a closer case. 
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: tazzmaniac on February 25, 2018, 11:20:43 AM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.

A coach at a state school is paid tens of thousands of dollars by an agent to direct athletes to that agent’s agency.  This is contrary to school and NCAA rules.

How is that not a bribe? Any time you’re paying off a government official to give you an impermissible benefit, it’s bribery.
the story thus week was the players getting paid by agents. That is not illegal nor a bribe

You asked about why the FBI was involved. The story that has been out for months involves assistant coaches taking money to secure clients. That’s clear bribery.

Is it illegal for a government official to funnel $100k to a prospect?  I don’t know enough about the law, but I suspect the legality depends on where the money comes from.
a lot of the schools are private though, but yeah a government official couldn't serve as a middle man for money, but if the government official never actually touches the money it is a closer case.
Don't see why that would be a closer case.  If they have recorded conversations and bank transfer records, it is easier to prove.  Even if the coach didn't directly take money, the coach gains a lot of benefit from getting top players on his team. 
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: More Banners on February 25, 2018, 12:41:44 PM
Oh the justice if Duke got busted.  The most coddled team in college basketball by the media and refs getting busted?  ESPN wouldn't know what to do.

That you're hoping that a program with no allegations against it is somehow found dirty says a lot about you.

But nothing good.

Go easy. Might've just went to Carolina or some other rival. Lot of Duke haters.

Heck, I had a punk lieutenant in the army that went to Duke, and that was enough for me.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on February 25, 2018, 01:11:33 PM
I still haven't figured out what the actual crime is and why the fbi cares

Bribes across state lines?
I don't see that as bribes though and certainly not in an illegal or dishonest manner.

A coach at a state school is paid tens of thousands of dollars by an agent to direct athletes to that agent’s agency.  This is contrary to school and NCAA rules.

How is that not a bribe? Any time you’re paying off a government official to give you an impermissible benefit, it’s bribery.
the story thus week was the players getting paid by agents. That is not illegal nor a bribe

You asked about why the FBI was involved. The story that has been out for months involves assistant coaches taking money to secure clients. That’s clear bribery.

Is it illegal for a government official to funnel $100k to a prospect?  I don’t know enough about the law, but I suspect the legality depends on where the money comes from.
a lot of the schools are private though, but yeah a government official couldn't serve as a middle man for money, but if the government official never actually touches the money it is a closer case.
Don't see why that would be a closer case.  If they have recorded conversations and bank transfer records, it is easier to prove.  Even if the coach didn't directly take money, the coach gains a lot of benefit from getting top players on his team.
It is a closer case on whether or not it is an actual crime because an agent or booster giving a player money isn't a crime. 
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: nickagneta on February 25, 2018, 01:44:05 PM
Funny how all the "thorough" school initiated compliance investigations that took merely hours to finish from when the news broke on the players, found every player eligible to play. I'm guessing they went something like this:

Compliance officer: Did you do anything wrong?

Player: Nope.

Compliance officer: You're cleared.
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: mef730 on February 25, 2018, 04:06:57 PM
Ayton clearly isn't trustworthy. No way that guy should be drafted in the top 26 picks.

Mike
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Eja117 on February 27, 2018, 12:08:12 AM
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22589989/michigan-state-miles-bridges-donates-40-charity-resolve-ncaa-violation (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/22589989/michigan-state-miles-bridges-donates-40-charity-resolve-ncaa-violation)

This thing is getting stranger all the time
Title: Re: College Corruption Case Poised to Take Hall of Fame Coaches, Top Programs, etc.
Post by: Moranis on March 02, 2018, 01:52:07 PM
Funny how all the "thorough" school initiated compliance investigations that took merely hours to finish from when the news broke on the players, found every player eligible to play. I'm guessing they went something like this:

Compliance officer: Did you do anything wrong?

Player: Nope.

Compliance officer: You're cleared.
well it appears that so called wiretap couldn't have been about getting Ayton to Arizona since he had committed to Arizona at least 5 months before the FBI even began wiretapping.  So that report that was leaked was clearly wrong on a number of facts, so who knows how much of it was actually correct.