Author Topic: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM  (Read 106295 times)

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Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #405 on: May 27, 2008, 12:31:18 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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Wow 21 and 16 for McDyess.  TWENTY-ONE AND SIXTEEN!!!!  I have respect for Antonio's game but we really can't let players like that look like superstars.

Our defense had some big holes tonight. That was one thing I couldn't figure out. I kept waiting for someone to put a hand in his face. You would think that after a guy proves he's hot that they would have clamped down on him >:(
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #406 on: May 27, 2008, 12:32:01 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Are there really people out there screaming about how bad Doc is after watching the garbage displayed by the players on the court?

For all those people complaining about how foolish Doc was for using Cassell, please note that he was the ONLY Celtic not in the negative for the game in the +/- stats. That's right the only one. And he only missed three shots. It's not like he shot us out of the game.

31.8 FG%
11.1 3PT FG%
14 TO
12 AST
Garnett -12 for the game 6-16 FGM/FGA
Pierce  -14 for the game 3-14 FGM/FGA 4 TO
Allen   -14 for the game 2-8  FGM/FGA
Rondo   -14 for the game 2-8  FGM/FGA

None of the above stats have anything to do with Doc. The players sucked. They were worse than bad. They didn't show. They had no intensity, no cohesion, no heart in any way tonight.

Red Auerbach coaching the players on this team couldn't have won this game.

Doc may drive us all mad but he had nothing to do with why we lost. If not for the refs and the obvious one sided calls we were getting this was a 35-40 point loss.


Then why does our offense look so confused? With 3 guys out there that have the ability to score(yes allen still has this) there should rarely be a problem with this offense. Whats sad is that sheed was out for an eternity and so was billups and they still couldn't get anything done. The team didn't play well I'll give you that, but Doc doen't know how to get the O on track when its sputtering.

As for sam, his numbers don't mean a thing. When it looked like our offense was making a run, he came in and it slowed way down and didn't pick up again until he was out.
First, the offense looks a bit confused because the Celtics are playing the second best defensive team in the league. Detroit's defense tonight was excellent.

Second, the decision making by the players on the floor on the offensive end was worse than terrible. Constant jumping in the air and trying to pass that turned into turnovers or near turnovers. Bad picks being set. Poor passing. How many times did a player forego a layup to pass out for a 20 footer.

Doc's not the best x's and o's coach and his defensive schemes are much better than his offensive ones but if the players actually try to run the offense properly, it should work. It has all year.

Lastly, your statement about Cassell coming in and slowing the offense way down and that it didn't pick up again until he was out is so far off base it's not funny. Sam entered the game with the score 18-6. The offense was stagnant and doing nothing better than any other offense that ever tried to do nothing. Sam's pressence settled things down and the Celtics closed the last 3:46 with an 11-4 run.

I'm sorry but you are just mentioning the typical Sam stereotype. It did not happen tonight.

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #407 on: May 27, 2008, 12:44:01 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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Are there really people out there screaming about how bad Doc is after watching the garbage displayed by the players on the court?

For all those people complaining about how foolish Doc was for using Cassell, please note that he was the ONLY Celtic not in the negative for the game in the +/- stats. That's right the only one. And he only missed three shots. It's not like he shot us out of the game.

31.8 FG%
11.1 3PT FG%
14 TO
12 AST
Garnett -12 for the game 6-16 FGM/FGA
Pierce  -14 for the game 3-14 FGM/FGA 4 TO
Allen   -14 for the game 2-8  FGM/FGA
Rondo   -14 for the game 2-8  FGM/FGA

None of the above stats have anything to do with Doc. The players sucked. They were worse than bad. They didn't show. They had no intensity, no cohesion, no heart in any way tonight.

Red Auerbach coaching the players on this team couldn't have won this game.

Doc may drive us all mad but he had nothing to do with why we lost. If not for the refs and the obvious one sided calls we were getting this was a 35-40 point loss.


Then why does our offense look so confused? With 3 guys out there that have the ability to score(yes allen still has this) there should rarely be a problem with this offense. Whats sad is that sheed was out for an eternity and so was billups and they still couldn't get anything done. The team didn't play well I'll give you that, but Doc doen't know how to get the O on track when its sputtering.

As for sam, his numbers don't mean a thing. When it looked like our offense was making a run, he came in and it slowed way down and didn't pick up again until he was out.
First, the offense looks a bit confused because the Celtics are playing the second best defensive team in the league. Detroit's defense tonight was excellent.

Second, the decision making by the players on the floor on the offensive end was worse than terrible. Constant jumping in the air and trying to pass that turned into turnovers or near turnovers. Bad picks being set. Poor passing. How many times did a player forego a layup to pass out for a 20 footer.

Doc's not the best x's and o's coach and his defensive schemes are much better than his offensive ones but if the players actually try to run the offense properly, it should work. It has all year.

Lastly, your statement about Cassell coming in and slowing the offense way down and that it didn't pick up again until he was out is so far off base it's not funny. Sam entered the game with the score 18-6. The offense was stagnant and doing nothing better than any other offense that ever tried to do nothing. Sam's pressence settled things down and the Celtics closed the last 3:46 with an 11-4 run.

I'm sorry but you are just mentioning the typical Sam stereotype. It did not happen tonight.



1. I was on the fence about sam until tonight. The guy doesn't creat offense and our team slowed because of it.

2. It's true our guys didn't play well, but don't you find it odd that no one seems to know what to do with the ball? You can blame the players to an extent and I would agree with you. But if a coach cannot rein his guys in, draw up a few plays to break a double team and get his guys some clean looks, and make adjustments when down, then he is not a good coach.

3. If sam settled things down so well then why would he take a 3 at the worst possible moment and contribute to killing a run? We get a good look and were down by 1, instead they run back and I believe it was 7
Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #408 on: May 27, 2008, 01:00:46 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Are there really people out there screaming about how bad Doc is after watching the garbage displayed by the players on the court?

For all those people complaining about how foolish Doc was for using Cassell, please note that he was the ONLY Celtic not in the negative for the game in the +/- stats. That's right the only one. And he only missed three shots. It's not like he shot us out of the game.

31.8 FG%
11.1 3PT FG%
14 TO
12 AST
Garnett -12 for the game 6-16 FGM/FGA
Pierce  -14 for the game 3-14 FGM/FGA 4 TO
Allen   -14 for the game 2-8  FGM/FGA
Rondo   -14 for the game 2-8  FGM/FGA

None of the above stats have anything to do with Doc. The players sucked. They were worse than bad. They didn't show. They had no intensity, no cohesion, no heart in any way tonight.

Red Auerbach coaching the players on this team couldn't have won this game.

Doc may drive us all mad but he had nothing to do with why we lost. If not for the refs and the obvious one sided calls we were getting this was a 35-40 point loss.


Then why does our offense look so confused? With 3 guys out there that have the ability to score(yes allen still has this) there should rarely be a problem with this offense. Whats sad is that sheed was out for an eternity and so was billups and they still couldn't get anything done. The team didn't play well I'll give you that, but Doc doen't know how to get the O on track when its sputtering.

As for sam, his numbers don't mean a thing. When it looked like our offense was making a run, he came in and it slowed way down and didn't pick up again until he was out.
First, the offense looks a bit confused because the Celtics are playing the second best defensive team in the league. Detroit's defense tonight was excellent.

Second, the decision making by the players on the floor on the offensive end was worse than terrible. Constant jumping in the air and trying to pass that turned into turnovers or near turnovers. Bad picks being set. Poor passing. How many times did a player forego a layup to pass out for a 20 footer.

Doc's not the best x's and o's coach and his defensive schemes are much better than his offensive ones but if the players actually try to run the offense properly, it should work. It has all year.

Lastly, your statement about Cassell coming in and slowing the offense way down and that it didn't pick up again until he was out is so far off base it's not funny. Sam entered the game with the score 18-6. The offense was stagnant and doing nothing better than any other offense that ever tried to do nothing. Sam's pressence settled things down and the Celtics closed the last 3:46 with an 11-4 run.

I'm sorry but you are just mentioning the typical Sam stereotype. It did not happen tonight.



1. I was on the fence about sam until tonight. The guy doesn't creat offense and our team slowed because of it.

2. It's true our guys didn't play well, but don't you find it odd that no one seems to know what to do with the ball? You can blame the players to an extent and I would agree with you. But if a coach cannot rein his guys in, draw up a few plays to break a double team and get his guys some clean looks, and make adjustments when down, then he is not a good coach.

3. If sam settled things down so well then why would he take a 3 at the worst possible moment and contribute to killing a run? We get a good look and were down by 1, instead they run back and I believe it was 7

Without Sam Cassell the Celtics are losing at the end of the 1st quarter by serious double digits instead of 5. Sam ran the offense way better than Rondo did tonight and took one bad shot. One. It was a hero three pointer but considering the fact that until that point there had only been three outside shots made all game, it wasn't that bad of a decision.

Sorry, most nights you are right and Sam does slow things down and costs the team momentum. Tonight was not one of those nights. He had the best +/- on the whole freaking team. That stat just does not lie.

As for the play being drawn up that would free up his players, who's to say that he didn't draw up good adjustments and that they just weren't executed?

Again, I just don't see where Doc can be criticized for what happened tonight. For all we know he had the perfect game plan and the players just botched the whole thing. They were just that awful.

On the pick and roll the picker was always moving and the man with the ball always started before the pick was set.

I didn't see one properly executed pick and roll all night.

Most times Detroit caused some havoc and someone decided it was time to do it all themselves.

Ray wasn't cutting close enough on the screens set for him and hasn't all postseason. That's part of the reason for his not being open. You have to cut around those screens close, sharp and fast to free yourself up. He's just not doing it.

Rondo played more like Sam than Sam did tonight. He was constantly dribbling for 15 out of the 24 seconds available.

Garnett wasn't trying to get his post positions deep enough. This is a constant problem Ihave with him and I can't helkp but think the coaches do too. Start to establish your low post position sooner and deeper and the spacing will take care of itself and he won't need to be so reliant on fall aways.

Execution tonight sucked.

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #409 on: May 27, 2008, 01:08:38 AM »

Offline angryguy77

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Again, I just don't see where Doc can be criticized for what happened tonight. For all we know he had the perfect game plan and the players just botched the whole thing. They were just that awful.


Well I do know that part of his game plan was letting his guys watch tape instead of holding practice to let them rest. That might have had something to do with how dull they looked at the start of the game. With how this team has played on the road in these playoffs, I really think that they need to be worried about staying sharp, they can rest after the season.


























































Still don't believe in Joe.

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #410 on: May 27, 2008, 01:13:13 AM »

Offline Bahku

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The Celtics truly stunk tonight, including Sam ... there was no energy, no sense of urgency, no life, and no aggressiveness. They couldn't buy a basket or sustain defensive pressure. Doc used the wrong rotation, called some very questionable plays, and did little to motivate this team. They shot 32%, and you just can't win games shooting like that ... that's truly horrible. How such a good team can play so lousy in one of the most important games of the year, is totally baffling. They should be battling for every game, every hour, and every second that they're on the floor, and playing like their lives depend on it. If the starting five can't get it done, then play the bench ... at least they'll make the most of the opportunity, and work their butts off consistently. This one was painful to watch ... where the heck was this team tonight ... stranded on the plane?
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Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #411 on: May 27, 2008, 01:18:53 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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Again, I just don't see where Doc can be criticized for what happened tonight. For all we know he had the perfect game plan and the players just botched the whole thing. They were just that awful.


Well I do know that part of his game plan was letting his guys watch tape instead of holding practice to let them rest. That might have had something to do with how dull they looked at the start of the game. With how this team has played on the road in these playoffs, I really think that they need to be worried about staying sharp, they can rest after the season.

Please understand I say this with the utmost respect so please don't take this the wrong way.

I think Doc Rivers has a much better handle as to what this team does and does not need to do on their off days than either you or me.

If that is the crux of your position as to why Doc caused this loss or should be held accountable for it, then there's really nothing I'm going to say that will change your mind.

I'll agree to disagree with you about as much as one person can and leave it at that.

Oh and don't get me wrong, I don't think Sam played good basketball. He just played a lot better than most of his teammates.

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #412 on: May 27, 2008, 09:14:50 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Again, I just don't see where Doc can be criticized for what happened tonight. For all we know he had the perfect game plan and the players just botched the whole thing. They were just that awful.


Well I do know that part of his game plan was letting his guys watch tape instead of holding practice to let them rest. That might have had something to do with how dull they looked at the start of the game. With how this team has played on the road in these playoffs, I really think that they need to be worried about staying sharp, they can rest after the season.

Please understand I say this with the utmost respect so please don't take this the wrong way.

I think Doc Rivers has a much better handle as to what this team does and does not need to do on their off days than either you or me.

If that is the crux of your position as to why Doc caused this loss or should be held accountable for it, then there's really nothing I'm going to say that will change your mind.

Well, Nick, Doc admitted before the game that it was a coin-flip, that he wasn't sure which way to go with it.  I think it's fair to at least argue that he made the wrong decision.  Since focus on the road has been a huge problem all post-season, maybe it made more sense to keep the team on task.

I'm not going to criticize Doc for that, because it's a legitimately tough call: rest for a team that has been playing non-stop, or preparation for a team that has failed to show up in about 75% of its road games.  However, the decision certainly didn't seem to help the team, in that not only did they not appear rested, but they looked lethargic and unfocused.  One of the jobs of a coach is to have his team prepared to play, and this post-season, that has been an ongoing concern. 

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Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #413 on: May 27, 2008, 10:14:50 AM »

Offline Chief

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I think Doc should have worked them hard and tried to finish it in 5. Take your rest when Spurs/Lakers go 7. :)
Once you are labeled 'the best' you want to stay up there, and you can't do it by loafing around.
 
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Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #414 on: May 27, 2008, 10:25:34 AM »

Offline overeasy

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I don't care about Doc.  Like most coaches, the high-priced talent turn a deaf ear to him anyway.  What I need to see some leadership on the floor.  I need to see Pierce or Garnett or ANYBODY step up and motivate their teammates to get it together;  to make those better cuts, to take open shots, to block out and do all the rest of the things that aren't being done.

Or, maybe Doc could get mad enough that someone would listen!  He could use a little rant now and then, 'cause perhaps the "little three" don't have
what it takes?  I don't know....maybe a T would help!

Sad to say, but the entire team (and most certainly, the guards) looks scared to death out there.  Scared
to drive, scared to shoot.  Scared to win.

As to the "Big Three?"  I agree with Bob Ryan.  You earn that title, boys.  They don't just hand it to you....



Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #415 on: May 27, 2008, 10:43:02 AM »

Offline Redz

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I think Doc should have worked them hard and tried to finish it in 5. Take your rest when Spurs/Lakers go 7. :)

It's easy to confuse raggedness with lack of effort.  Detroit came out strong with swarming D.  You can't fake desperation.  Detroit was the more desperate team last night and they played like it, but it wasn't like the Celtics weren't trying to win.  If that was the case they would have been down by 30 in the 2nd quarter.
Yup

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #416 on: May 27, 2008, 01:05:59 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Again, I just don't see where Doc can be criticized for what happened tonight. For all we know he had the perfect game plan and the players just botched the whole thing. They were just that awful.


Well I do know that part of his game plan was letting his guys watch tape instead of holding practice to let them rest. That might have had something to do with how dull they looked at the start of the game. With how this team has played on the road in these playoffs, I really think that they need to be worried about staying sharp, they can rest after the season.

Please understand I say this with the utmost respect so please don't take this the wrong way.

I think Doc Rivers has a much better handle as to what this team does and does not need to do on their off days than either you or me.

If that is the crux of your position as to why Doc caused this loss or should be held accountable for it, then there's really nothing I'm going to say that will change your mind.

Well, Nick, Doc admitted before the game that it was a coin-flip, that he wasn't sure which way to go with it.  I think it's fair to at least argue that he made the wrong decision.  Since focus on the road has been a huge problem all post-season, maybe it made more sense to keep the team on task.

I'm not going to criticize Doc for that, because it's a legitimately tough call: rest for a team that has been playing non-stop, or preparation for a team that has failed to show up in about 75% of its road games.  However, the decision certainly didn't seem to help the team, in that not only did they not appear rested, but they looked lethargic and unfocused.  One of the jobs of a coach is to have his team prepared to play, and this post-season, that has been an ongoing concern. 
Good point Roy but Doc decided to go with rest and film. The problem was the team looked anything but rested. I can only imagine what a tough practice on Sunday would have done to their overall energy level last night if after a day's rest they still lookled lethargic.

This team is mentally tired after 15 games in 30 days and it seems to need 4 days in between good games to be revitalized. If that's the case, I'm not sure there's much Doc can do if these guys just aren't mentally tough enough to get it done every game.

I'm a firm believer in the fact that the players are first, foremost and lastly, responsible for being emotionally and mentally prepared for every game and that all the coaching in the world to get the players mentally prepared isn't going to work if the player's mind and heart isn't properly self-prepared.

I think the Superbowl was a great example of this. Belichick is the best coach in the game and has done a tremendous job keeping his players focused. But way too many players weren't mentally prepared for what was expected in the game and because of that the Pats lost. Yes, Belichick fell on his sword saying the responsibility was his, but I refuse to believe that his game prep and mental preparation for that game was any different than it always is. The players heads and hearts weren't into it and there was nothing Belichick could do about it.

Same with how this team was last night. I do believe Doc has a better pulse on what this team needs on their days off than any of us and just because he wasn't 100% sure doesn't mean it wasn't the right decision. Things could very well have been worse if he took the other course of action. And all things considered, maybe it didn't matter because it was the players who did.n't come to play with the proper mind set that was necessary and Doc couldn't have done anything about it

Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #417 on: May 27, 2008, 01:10:35 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Quote
Things could very well have been worse if he took the other course of action.

What a scary thought that is.

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Re: ECF Game 4 Celtics at Pistons 5/26 ESPN 8:30 PM
« Reply #418 on: May 27, 2008, 02:16:18 PM »

Offline angryguy77

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The pats didn't lose because of no emotion. They lost because the NY played great ball in the playoffs and had a better game plan and brought a great pass rush that disrupted the pats O.

Also the pats have been there how many times. Not being prepared is no excuse for a team that has that much experience.
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