CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: trickybilly on October 11, 2017, 05:23:24 AM

Title: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: trickybilly on October 11, 2017, 05:23:24 AM
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/20847733/nba-preview-2017-18-warriors-vs-everybody-power-rankings#rockets

Not that Kyrie needs any motivation, but I hope he notices this.
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Androslav on October 11, 2017, 05:38:38 AM
This list was made with such preciseness, it feels like watching children fingerpaint for the 1st time. Celtics have a 15th best chance out of 29 teams to beat the Warriors. A couple of (outsourced) Ph.D.'s were needed to reach that profound conclusion.
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: kozlodoev on October 11, 2017, 05:52:42 AM
These are not "power rankings" in the traditional sense of the word. They measure how well teams match up against the Warriors specifically.
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: pearljammer10 on October 11, 2017, 05:56:49 AM
Most hilarious thing I've woken up to in a long time.
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: kozlodoev on October 11, 2017, 06:19:42 AM
Most hilarious thing I've woken up to in a long time.
You don't believe the matchup with the Warriors is just average for us?
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Celtics4ever on October 11, 2017, 06:57:25 AM
I think we have like the 4th to 6th best chance not the 16th.   That article was a complete joke.

Quote
These are not "power rankings" in the traditional sense of the word. They measure how well teams match up against the Warriors specifically.
 

Still way off in their matchups, you want to tell me the Clippers or the Heat match up better than us.   It is pretty clear the author has a serious west coast bias. 
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: LilRip on October 11, 2017, 07:17:20 AM
Well, one thing I don't disagree with: trading Tatum, Morris and Baynes (and 2 1st rounders) for Anthony Davis would be terrifying for the rest of the league indeed.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Greenback on October 11, 2017, 07:38:11 AM
The Celtics have a very good chance to beat the Warriors this year.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Who on October 11, 2017, 07:53:53 AM
I think the C's are one of the best matchup wise against GSW.

I believe Boston has a better shot at beating Golden State than Cleveland or San Antonio. The only team I would really hesitate on is Houston. So I would have Boston as either the most likely or 2nd most likely to beat GSW in a playoff series.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: kozlodoev on October 11, 2017, 08:07:47 AM
I think the C's are one of the best matchup wise against GSW.
Yeah, the Warriors are essentially the same team, except they do everything better at just about any position (other than C). :P
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: jpotter33 on October 11, 2017, 08:41:18 AM
Most hilarious thing I've woken up to in a long time.
You don't believe the matchup with the Warriors is just average for us?

Absolutely not. We matchup with the Warriors as well as anyone in the league with our versatility on both sides of the ball. This list is a joke.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: johnnygreen on October 11, 2017, 08:49:53 AM
That ranking was a complete joke.

They seriously gave Houston the best odds of beating Golden State? This is the team who's best player, literally gave up during the middle of a game during the second round against San Antonio during the playoffs. I will generously give Houston a 2% chance.

I had to read the last sentence at least 5 times, regarding Minnesota's overall chance against Golden State..."an offense projected to be better than that of all but one team: the Warriors". I think when ESPN ran those projections, that they missed a zero. I would bet their offense will be closer to 20th than anywhere close to #2.

Not to seem like a homer, but how are their 6 eastern conference and 8 western conference teams ahead of the Celtics? Obviously, any 7 or 8 seeded team would be swept by the Warriors easily. To make matters even worse, they project a western conference team that won't even make the playoffs, to have a better chance than the Celtics. At worst, I think the Celtics should have been 6th.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Eddie20 on October 11, 2017, 08:55:01 AM
I like the way it talks about the loss of Amir Johnson as if that was such a huge blow. The guy terrible and was virtually unplayable during the playoffs.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: jpotter33 on October 11, 2017, 09:15:54 AM
I like the way it talks about the loss of Amir Johnson as if that was such a huge blow. The guy terrible and was virtually unplayable during the playoffs.

Yeah, that was pretty much laughable. If anything, Morris is twice as good of a fit against the Warriors as Amir due to his better isolation offense, floor spreading, and versatile defense
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: gouki88 on October 11, 2017, 09:21:46 AM
I like the way it talks about the loss of Amir Johnson as if that was such a huge blow. The guy terrible and was virtually unplayable during the playoffs.
He was the key!
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Androslav on October 11, 2017, 09:22:21 AM
Clips at the 5th spot are just ridiculous: It is so ridiculous, it should be on the writer's tombstone.
During the best years of the Clips franchise history 2013-2017, since they have beaten the Warriors in the 1st round of the 2013 playoffs, they haven't been able to sniff them. I mean they were beating on them like a drum, 30, 40 points advantage. (I know this cause a friend of mine is a huge Clips fan and he was crying on the phone like a baby, every single time after their loss, 4x per season) Then the let them stick close till the 4th qtr, but kill them to finish +20 with flamethrowing threes. And now they say, after having the whole summer to ponder the possibilities, that a weaker version of that team (best player is gone, the 2nd best player is robbed from his athleticism, and nominally their 3rd best guy is a good center, but always was a playoff/late game screwup) is the 4th best GSW challenger. 

By their count,  between the Lakers (21.) and the Celts (15.) there are just 5 teams that matchup better with GSW.

Conclusion: When you write up something totally out there, you can just say that special computer programs, even better to use the term, the models made this calculation. That way you can say that BKN will finish 50-32 and it will have some anchorage there. All clean.
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: jambr380 on October 11, 2017, 09:30:23 AM
Most hilarious thing I've woken up to in a long time.
You don't believe the matchup with the Warriors is just average for us?

Absolutely not. We matchup with the Warriors as well as anyone in the league with our versatility on both sides of the ball. This list is a joke.

Yeah, I realize we have had a number of roster changes, but we are 2-2 against them in the last two years - with one of those losses going into multiple overtimes. For a team that is considered at least the clear-cut #2 team in the EC, this seems like a major insult, especially since we are considered to be better than '15-'16 and '16-'17. Like, who created this thing?
Title: Re: ESPN power rankings. LOL.
Post by: johnnygreen on October 11, 2017, 09:47:08 AM
Most hilarious thing I've woken up to in a long time.
You don't believe the matchup with the Warriors is just average for us?

Absolutely not. We matchup with the Warriors as well as anyone in the league with our versatility on both sides of the ball. This list is a joke.

Yeah, I realize we have had a number of roster changes, but we are 2-2 against them in the last two years - with one of those losses going into multiple overtimes. For a team that is considered at least the clear-cut #2 team in the EC, this seems like a major insult, especially since we are considered to be better than '15-'16 and '16-'17. Like, who created this thing?

Jemele Hill???
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: D Dub on October 11, 2017, 10:20:28 AM
Their coverage is officially become full-blown clickbait garbage. 

Of course they know the C's have a better chance than half the league.

But that isn't a story.

They only have one priority, please their advertisers.

Best way, these days, is to tick off the largest most engaged fan base in the league. 

It's a simple equation:

Preposporous claim underestimating the C's
+
A planet packed with critical Celtics fans
=
100's of thousands of web page impressions.

Well I've had enough. 

Maybe this time, we skip them over. 

Do we really need to read their piece to gauge exactly how wrong they are this time?

Sorry ESPN.

The highlights on YouTube are better than sportscenter.

The NBA commentary from the knowledge base over at the Ringer smokes you guys (at least those guys seem to watch the sports they cover)



Celticblog Challenge:



Go the whole season without clicking their website even once. 

Trust me you'll feel better for it.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Androslav on October 11, 2017, 10:41:19 AM
Their coverage is officially become full-blown clickbait garbage. 

Of course they know the C's have a better chance than half the league.

But that isn't a story.

They only have one priority, please their advertisers.

Best way, these days, is to tick off the largest most engaged fan base in the league. 

It's a simple equation:

Preposporous claim underestimating the C's
+
A planet packed with critical Celtics fans
=
100's of thousands of web page impressions.

Well I've had enough. 

Maybe this time, we skip them over. 

Do we really need to read their piece to gauge exactly how wrong they are this time?

Sorry ESPN.

The highlights on YouTube are better than sportscenter.

The NBA commentary from the knowledge base over at the Ringer smokes you guys (at least those guys seem to watch the sports they cover)



Celticblog Challenge:



Go the whole season without clicking their website even once. 

Trust me you'll feel better for it.
You are 100% right. We shouldn't support poor and "forced" due to thier size, coverage. I didn't follow them in my first 19 years of NBA. Since the Grantland teardown, I started to visit them in search of Z.Lowe articles. PP and Tmac are good too and thats about it.
However since most CBloggers are from US, seems like every ESPN article remotely significant gets a thread here.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: PaulAllen on October 11, 2017, 11:21:38 AM
What a joke... Should have ranked the Celtics #17

17 championships
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: RLewis35 on October 11, 2017, 11:26:02 AM
This is the problem with analytics...they don't account for a LOT of what we bring to the table (or at least did and hopefully still will this season).  Grit, tenacity, effort, supreme coaching, guys sacrificing stats for good of team.  People talk about things like chemistry in baseball which is important but nowhere NEAR the level of importance as chemistry is in basketball.  It's what the Celtics bring - and for the most part, have always brought - and it is consistently overlooked (or not looked at at all) by stat heads.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: RMO on October 11, 2017, 11:42:56 AM
This is why I only check ESPN for scores.  They've just become too gimmicky.  Constantly ramming a superstar or a super team down everyone's throats (ie The Heat Index).  Maybe that's just the way sports are now (and have been for many years) where fans' allegiances change but I've been rooting for the same team for 30 years and it's not changing. 
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: PhoSita on October 11, 2017, 11:42:58 AM
This is like making a power rankings of how various breeds of dog matchup with a pickup truck.


Just looking through the top of the rankings ahead of the Celts, it's very clear that they overrate teams with talented size and underrate projected offensive efficiency and defensive ability.

The Nuggets have firepower but they'd give up 120-130+ points every single game against the Nuggets.

A team like the Heat or Jazz can't hope to score enough points.  Just not enough shooting or offensive talent.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: PhoSita on October 11, 2017, 11:46:50 AM
I like the way it talks about the loss of Amir Johnson as if that was such a huge blow. The guy terrible and was virtually unplayable during the playoffs.

Yeah, that was pretty much laughable. If anything, Morris is twice as good of a fit against the Warriors as Amir due to his better isolation offense, floor spreading, and versatile defense


All you have to do is look at the fact that they based this HEAVILY on their in-house RPM statistic.

RPM loves Amir.

It's a wonky stat that has a lot of fairly obvious bugs in it if you ever look at the rankings of players based on the stat.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: CelticsElite on October 11, 2017, 12:10:25 PM
Espn has a long history of "loving" the celtics-

Remember 08 finals predictions, 66 win Celtic team:

(https://www.caffein8ed.com/images/celts-lakers-predictions_6-5-2008.jpg)
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: trickybilly on October 11, 2017, 12:33:23 PM
Jesus. Calm down with all the Trumpian ESPN attacks. Still full of hundreds of great stories every week. It's an insult to David Aldridge and many others.

I posted this thread to say that the subjective assessment was, in my opinion, not great.

So sick of conspiracy theories. Just so sick of them at the moment. Except Kyrie. Kyrie can say what he wants.

Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Erik on October 11, 2017, 01:08:30 PM
I like the way it talks about the loss of Amir Johnson as if that was such a huge blow. The guy terrible and was virtually unplayable during the playoffs.

It's what happens when advanced analytics jockeys are given a microphone. "But..but he was +3 in the 4 minutes per game he was played! That's +22.5 per 30 minutes making him the greatest player of all time. How can the Celtics ever overcome losing that?"

It's a mental disorder. Just nod your head and move on and hope that it's not contagious.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Beat LA on October 11, 2017, 11:36:45 PM
Ridiculous trades aside - many of which seemed to include Demar Derozan because you just know that Toronto has been shopping him for like, ever ::) - my favorite part of these "power rankings" has to be this line from the preview of the Minnesota Timberwolves -

Quote
Still, Minnesota should make its first playoff appearance in 13 years behind an offense projected to be better than that of all of but team: the Warriors.
--Nick Friedell

Not if Thibs has anything to say about it :laugh:.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: crimson_stallion on October 11, 2017, 11:59:00 PM
Miami in the top 10 - that's all I need to see.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: liam on October 12, 2017, 02:12:09 AM
I like the way it talks about the loss of Amir Johnson as if that was such a huge blow. The guy terrible and was virtually unplayable during the playoffs.

It's what happens when advanced analytics jockeys are given a microphone. "But..but he was +3 in the 4 minutes per game he was played! That's +22.5 per 30 minutes making him the greatest player of all time. How can the Celtics ever overcome losing that?"

It's a mental disorder. Just nod your head and move on and hope that it's not contagious.

The strict analytics people don't watch the games and wonder why a guy like Marcus Smart is so valuable. They should stick to baseball.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: loco_91 on October 12, 2017, 08:16:03 AM
Their coverage is officially become full-blown clickbait garbage. 

Of course they know the C's have a better chance than half the league.

But that isn't a story.

They only have one priority, please their advertisers.

Best way, these days, is to tick off the largest most engaged fan base in the league. 

It's a simple equation:

Preposporous claim underestimating the C's
+
A planet packed with critical Celtics fans
=
100's of thousands of web page impressions.

Well I've had enough. 

Maybe this time, we skip them over. 

Do we really need to read their piece to gauge exactly how wrong they are this time?

Sorry ESPN.

The highlights on YouTube are better than sportscenter.

The NBA commentary from the knowledge base over at the Ringer smokes you guys (at least those guys seem to watch the sports they cover)



Celticblog Challenge:



Go the whole season without clicking their website even once. 

Trust me you'll feel better for it.

TP
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Boris Badenov on October 12, 2017, 12:32:05 PM
They're using their own "real plus-minus" which is garbage as the foundation of the rankings. Garbage in, garbage out.

Some details:
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Moranis on October 12, 2017, 02:33:03 PM
clearly Boston shouldn't be that low, but I do think GS is an absolutely terrible matchup for Boston and there are teams behind Boston that do match-up better (a team like the Bucks for example, does match-up better against the Warriors than Boston does, but Boston is better than the Bucks and would very likely beat them in a playoff series). 
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: PhoSita on October 12, 2017, 02:45:03 PM
They're using their own "real plus-minus" which is garbage as the foundation of the rankings. Garbage in, garbage out.

Some details:
  • RPM has Paul George 37th, behind Zaza Pachulia, Giorgui Deng, Lucas Nogueira and other notables
  • RPM has Jae Crowder at 20 and Amir Johnson at 21, just ahead of Blake Griffin
  • RPM ranks Kevin Love ahead of James Harden, Anthony Davis and Greek Freak
  • RPM ranks Cody Zeller as better than Gordon Hayward and Paul George
  • RPM ranks Patrick Patterson and Dewayne Dedmon ahead of Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Bradley Beal and Karl Anthony-Towns
  • ESPN is stupid and it sucks


According to the RPM rankings, this starting lineup would have won 50+ games last year:


Pat Beverley, Andre Roberson, Rob Covington, Amir Johnson, Dewayne Dedmon
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: GreenEnvy on October 12, 2017, 03:07:51 PM
I think the C's are one of the best matchup wise against GSW.

I believe Boston has a better shot at beating Golden State than Cleveland or San Antonio. The only team I would really hesitate on is Houston. So I would have Boston as either the most likely or 2nd most likely to beat GSW in a playoff series.

Prior to this summer, it wasn’t outrageous to consider Boston the worst matchup for GSW. At worst, maybe second to San Antonio.

I don’t see how the trades this season makes them any worse. Kyrie and Isaiah are a wash. Gordon is not much of a downgrade defensively but is a major upgrade offensively and that should make Durant work on the defensive end. Morris is a better matchup against them than Johnson. Bradley is a big loss without a doubt, but Rozier looks ready and Smart looks quicker than ever.

We shouldn’t be favored over them, but we should be less of an underdog than just about every other team, in my green-colored-glasses opinion.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: nickagneta on October 12, 2017, 03:19:32 PM
I gotta save this ESPN webpage so when people start quoting ESPNs RPM as a way of rating players, I can just reference this aticle to show them how wrong they are.
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: Moranis on October 12, 2017, 03:22:18 PM
I think the C's are one of the best matchup wise against GSW.

I believe Boston has a better shot at beating Golden State than Cleveland or San Antonio. The only team I would really hesitate on is Houston. So I would have Boston as either the most likely or 2nd most likely to beat GSW in a playoff series.

Prior to this summer, it wasn’t outrageous to consider Boston the worst matchup for GSW. At worst, maybe second to San Antonio.

I don’t see how the trades this season makes them any worse. Kyrie and Isaiah are a wash. Gordon is not much of a downgrade defensively but is a major upgrade offensively and that should make Durant work on the defensive end. Morris is a better matchup against them than Johnson. Bradley is a big loss without a doubt, but Rozier looks ready and Smart looks quicker than ever.

We shouldn’t be favored over them, but we should be less of an underdog than just about every other team, in my green-colored-glasses opinion.
Losing Bradley, Crowder, and Johnson are actually much bigger than you are giving them credit for because Boston's only real shot against GS is defensively.  This team is worse defensively overall and didn't make up nearly enough of the offensive gap to overcome that. 
Title: Re: ESPN match-up-with-Warriors power rankings. LOL.
Post by: celticsclay on October 12, 2017, 04:02:31 PM
They're using their own "real plus-minus" which is garbage as the foundation of the rankings. Garbage in, garbage out.

Some details:
  • RPM has Paul George 37th, behind Zaza Pachulia, Giorgui Deng, Lucas Nogueira and other notables
  • RPM has Jae Crowder at 20 and Amir Johnson at 21, just ahead of Blake Griffin
  • RPM ranks Kevin Love ahead of James Harden, Anthony Davis and Greek Freak
  • RPM ranks Cody Zeller as better than Gordon Hayward and Paul George
  • RPM ranks Patrick Patterson and Dewayne Dedmon ahead of Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving, John Wall, Bradley Beal and Karl Anthony-Towns
  • ESPN is stupid and it sucks

Thank you saved me the trouble of reading it