Author Topic: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?  (Read 27627 times)

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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2012, 03:43:31 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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Stockton is a prototype PG. He did everything at a high level, everything. I was thinking of who he could be compared to in today's game and maybe Deron Williams?

?

I don't see a single similarity between the two except that they play the same position and are good. Deron is a scorer, first and foremost, who isn't bad at passing the ball and other facets of the game. Stockton was a passer, first and foremost, who wasn't terrible at shooting and other facets of the game.

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Anyway, the way I see it with Hall of Famers, is that once you get into the Top 5 basketball players of all time it doesn't really matter where they rank. For example, when you are talking about Dominique Wilkins and Clyde Drexler, for example, you can make a lot of arguments one way or the other. But once you get to talking about, say, Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ... it's a lot harder to really say anything except "Both those guys were really, really, really, really good." That's how I see it with Stockton vs Magic.

Don't forget both were drafted by Utah and played under Jerry Sloan.  ;)


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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2012, 03:47:16 PM »

Offline Kane3387

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While I hate the "he had Malone" argument.  One thing that probably did help a lot is how Stockton and Malone's careers lined up.

Look at a guy like Rondo at the start of his career, playing with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett at the end of their careers.  Rondo would probably be putting up even better numbers if Pierce was 25/26 (or Allen or Garnett was 25/26).

Or it could be like that right now in OKC with Westbrook and Durant (if Westbrook was a pass first guy).  Same age, drafted one year apart.  They should be hitting their primes at the same time.  This is what happened with Stockton and Malone.

Also not only did the Stockton/Malone combo line up perfectly career-wise, but they both had incredible health.

In 18 seasons together, they played in 1,422 games together, out of total of 1,444.  That's 98.5%.  Rondo has missed more games over the last season and a half than Stockton missed in his entire 19 year career.  Same thing with Pierce (or Allen or Garnett...).

Stockton basically never missed a game (over 19 seasons), and the primary scorer he played with never missed a game either for the 18 years they played together.  That definitely helps.

You hate the he had malone argument yet sum it up to a tee.
John Stockton Played with the 2nd leading scorer in NBA history through their primes and most of his career, which one helped the other more? tough to say
Honestly through his first 3+ seasons his stats looked nearly identical to rondos through his first 3+ but then took a jump rondo hasnt quite taken yet after that...he was also expected to score more and had the best big man finisher the game has almost ever seen to pass to in his freakish athletic prime

See I think you're getting into the territory I don't like.

What I hate about the "he had Malone" theory is that John Stockton would have been a Hall of Fame player, one of the greatest point guards ever, and the all time assists and steals leader whether or not he played with Karl Malone and ran the pick and roll.

People make it sound like all you have to do is play with a dominant scorer and you'll automatically lead the league in assists.  Did anybody who ever played with Shaq ever come close to leading the league in assists?  How about Olajuwon, Ewing, or David Robinson? If it's that easy the guys who played with Wilt Chamberlain should have all the assist record.  Guys can't even seem to lead the league once with a dominant scorer, yet Stockton did it every year. 

Now to be in first by such an incredibly large margin, yes playing with Malone for so long, and neither missing a game helped that.  But even if Malone wasn't there, Stockton would be the all-time assist leader, it's just that guys like Kidd and Nash would be a little closer to breaking the record instead of still 4,000 and 6,000 assists away.

Magic - greatest point guard ever.
Stockton - greatest pure point guard ever.

To me this is the old Jerry Rice and Joe Montana/Steve Young argument. Simply put both were All-Time players. Top 25 players. Would they have been outstanding without the other? Yes. Would they have been as outstanding? Maybe and maybe not, but they would have still been great.


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Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2012, 03:59:09 PM »

Offline TitleMaster

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The comment that Stockton was only an average shooter is ridiculous. He was one of the all time shooters. He was an average "scorer" simply for the fact he passed up so many shots as he was always looking to pass. In fact as an old man who watched countless players he is the only top player that I thought should have shot the ball more.

If Stockton did exactly that, shoot more, the Jazz would have won one of the titles, between '97 and '01.

There were many big game playoff moments where Malone went off for 30+, 40, even 50 points but in no situation, did Malone re-distribute the ball, to help his teammates seal the deal, when opponents took away the Jazz's scoring option number one.


Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2012, 09:03:42 PM »

Offline OsirusCeltics

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I thought he was the Third best PG of the 80's/90's.


Behind Magic and Thomas. 




Yup so true. Combined wit the upswing of young guards in the 90s
Payton, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Kenny Anderson, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2012, 09:33:56 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I thought he was the Third best PG of the 80's/90's.


Behind Magic and Thomas. 




Yup so true. Combined wit the upswing of young guards in the 90s
Payton, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Kenny Anderson, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway
Disturbing to hear Anderson mentioned in a discussion like this. Not even in the same league.

I don't consider either Hardaway worthy to be mentioned in this discussion. Payton, sure. A great PG. Kidd, perhaps. More limited than Stockton, but his size helps. I loved KJ in his day, but I am not comfortable putting him in a discussion about Magic, Thomas, Stockton, and Payton.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2012, 09:35:19 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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My main problem with Stockton was his shorts at the end of his career. Inexcusable.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2012, 09:32:30 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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My main problem with Stockton was his shorts at the end of his career. Inexcusable.

I tried to find a picture of when Shaq put on a pair of Stockton's shorts, but was unsuccessful.   :(

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2012, 09:48:53 AM »

Offline birdwatcher

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Stockton was a methodical, super fundamentally sound player who some would consider "boring" in today's game because he was the anithesis of flashy. He made the right pass, was a terrific mid range shooter and was a very savy defender. Watch some clips of him and he's like a basketball training video: he always kept his head up, his back straight, his knees deep and bent and was always on his toes.
Rondo's last couple of games were "Stockton-like" in the way he ran the offense, not many flashy sportscenter moments, but tallied 15 and 20 assists simply by making the most simple yet perfect pass to his teammates in their spots. Its amazing that guys like Rajon and Stockton could see 2 or 3 open teammates at the same time and evaluate in a couple of seconds who has a better chance of hitting the shot and get it to them. Its like a QB going through his reads.

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2012, 10:44:04 AM »

Offline BMark3

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Excellent he was

-Yoda

Re: John Stockton: How Good Exactly He Was?
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2012, 10:46:12 AM »

Offline Kane3387

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I thought he was the Third best PG of the 80's/90's.


Behind Magic and Thomas. 




Yup so true. Combined wit the upswing of young guards in the 90s
Payton, Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Kenny Anderson, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway
Disturbing to hear Anderson mentioned in a discussion like this. Not even in the same league.

I don't consider either Hardaway worthy to be mentioned in this discussion. Payton, sure. A great PG. Kidd, perhaps. More limited than Stockton, but his size helps. I loved KJ in his day, but I am not comfortable putting him in a discussion about Magic, Thomas, Stockton, and Payton.

Kidd has to be in the discussion. Not the others. GP to clarify should be as well.


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