Author Topic: Trade Irving for the sake of the team  (Read 53337 times)

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Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #375 on: January 19, 2019, 06:13:38 PM »

Online BitterJim

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Irving is currently having big stat lines and, of course, came up huge vs Toronto late to basically win the game for the Celts.

My concern, which will not be heard because of my "bias" regarding Irving is, that short term, he produces some great moments but long term, I think he hurts a team's chances towards consistent championship contention.

What you have to look at is, when Irving posts these big numbers, points & assists, what are the other players producing ? The Celtics are at their best when assists and points are spread among several players. That means the ball is moving and not being dribbled. When Irving gets 18 assists, everyone wants to kneel and worship the guy. Problem is, those 18 assists come after he dominates the ball for much of the shot clock and then makes ONE pass for a basket. When a lot of players get assists, it means the ball is moving, everyone is involved and much more active, both offensively and defensively. Irving is often great for a team the last 2 minutes of a game. It's the first 46 minutes that I worry about.

His basic self-centered nature has been discussed at length already. Anyone who responds to a coach's directive with, "That's not my job" is obviously more concerned with themselves than the team.

Larry Bird had career average USG rate of 26.5%, and Irving has 29.3%, which isn't that far fetched to believe in the percentage difference, considering Irving is a PG/SG combo guard, and generally will have the ball in his hands for far longer.

Bird also had consecutive games where he had 20+ PPG, and 10+ APG. Did he also deter his other teammates from being involved and scoring? Did we hear the same glaring complaints with Irving, APPLY to Bird? Sure, two different players, and two entirely different positions, but it's always alarming to me that you guys continuously talk about him having 18 assists as if that's a bad thing. Like Bird never just took over the game, and led the team to a win. Why is it such a problematic issue if Irving does the same?

Offensively, he's our clear cut go to scorer, and probably the best player on the team.
Is he not allowed to be given the luxury to do so, when he has been nothing short of excellent; in fixing and improving upon his most immediate deficiencies.

Like seriously, it's like you guys just try to pluck away any achievements, or anything impactful that Irving has done. Every time, I come into this forums, I've seen some users who really have it out for Irving, and just whine and complain about everything that he does, and never EVER talk about whatever good he accomplished. You guys really are some negative nancy's. 

It's also telling that you chose the one sentence that marks him out as a bad guy, but none of the other 100 great ones mentioned in his post game interviews; taking blame for losses, stepping us as a leader.

You are actually trying to equate Irving's ability to get teammates inolved to Larry Bird, who may have been the best all-time at getting the ball moving and other players scoring. Getting teammates involved was probably the most important thing Bird did as a rookie to get the Celtics moving back in a winning direction.

Irving is a great offensive player - but his style hurts these specific teammates in the long run. Bad fit.

As for the comment Irving made to Tyronn Lue, that's about as bad as it gets - unless some player threatens to get surgery done if he is not traded.

And Irving hasn't shown that he is showing an willingness to do that in the past 2 years? What more do you guys want from Kyrie?

Oh come off it, jeez louise lol. So what? That locker room was toxic from the beginning, Lue was a horrible coach, and LBJ wasn't a leader by any means either. He wasn't happy with CLE, sure it was immature, but WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES as human beings.

"Like Bird never just took over the game, and led the team to a win. Why is it such a problematic issue if Irving does the same?"

One of my statements was that Irving is great the last 2 minutes of a close game.

And one of my responses to said statement is that Irving is great 48 minutes of a close game... Kyrie is clutch, no doubt about it, but sure keep thinking that he isn't. I wonder what it'll take for you guys to stop judging Irving and dismissing him, and maybe just be happy we finally have someone like Irving on our team..

In some cases, Irving would need to go back in time and commit to another college team (like, say, the Tarheels)  ;D
I'm bitter.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #376 on: January 19, 2019, 06:19:12 PM »

Offline mctyson

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Baynes was a plus 21 tonight.

Irving was a plus 4.

Interior defense and rebounding matters.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2019/lineups/#lineups_3-man_::3

Kyrie is in 5 of top 6.

This is plus/minus for the entire season.

Sorry, you missed the point. We have been losing because without Baynes we are too small and too weak.

Sorry, you missed the point.  The Celtics are way better than the opposition with Kyrie on the floor, as determined by the amount of points they score versus the amount they give up.  This is a consistent statistical fact from this season.

This occurs with or without Baynes. 

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #377 on: January 19, 2019, 06:40:48 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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This thread should maybe just get locked.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #378 on: January 19, 2019, 06:50:20 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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This thread should maybe just get locked.

Just this thread? I feel like literally half the threads created this past week should be locked forever  :P

(And yes, I'm aware this thread has been around for 2 weeks but still...)
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Kyrie is amazing and should be traded for sure
« Reply #379 on: January 26, 2019, 10:55:12 PM »

Offline PatrickLencioni

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Okay, it's only sports.  So it's not life and death  But it is absolutely clear to me that the Celtics are not a better TEAM with Kyrie than they are without him.  Stay with me here.

When he has the ball, which is most of the time at the beginning of their offensive sets, the rest of the team is waiting for him to do something, and then they get to contribute IF he doesn't try to score and IF he decides to pass them the ball. 

Irving often does something amazing.  He's so talented.  But he also turns the ball over a lot, and he is the reason that Tatum, Brown and Hayward are off this season.  There is no movement and fluidity to their offense.  It is patently obvious.  Irving reminds me of those players from the 70s and 80s who were fantastic one on one, but never made their team great. 

He should be traded to someone who sees his amazing skill but doesn't recognize his self-focused play.

Re: Kyrie is amazing and should be traded for sure
« Reply #380 on: January 26, 2019, 10:57:23 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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Okay, it's only sports.  So it's not life and death  But it is absolutely clear to me that the Celtics are not a better TEAM with Kyrie than they are without him.  Stay with me here.

When he has the ball, which is most of the time at the beginning of their offensive sets, the rest of the team is waiting for him to do something, and then they get to contribute IF he doesn't try to score and IF he decides to pass them the ball. 

Irving often does something amazing.  He's so talented.  But he also turns the ball over a lot, and he is the reason that Tatum, Brown and Hayward are off this season.  There is no movement and fluidity to their offense.  It is patently obvious.  Irving reminds me of those players from the 70s and 80s who were fantastic one on one, but never made their team great. 

He should be traded to someone who sees his amazing skill but doesn't recognize his self-focused play.

Cool! For what?
"Tough times never last, but tough people do." - Robert H. Schuller

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #381 on: January 26, 2019, 10:57:30 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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How many of these people who come on these forums to say "Trade Kyrie" are Knicks fans?
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Kyrie is amazing and should be traded for sure
« Reply #382 on: January 26, 2019, 10:58:25 PM »

Offline 10610786d

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Okay, it's only sports.  So it's not life and death  But it is absolutely clear to me that the Celtics are not a better TEAM with Kyrie than they are without him.  Stay with me here.

When he has the ball, which is most of the time at the beginning of their offensive sets, the rest of the team is waiting for him to do something, and then they get to contribute IF he doesn't try to score and IF he decides to pass them the ball. 

Irving often does something amazing.  He's so talented.  But he also turns the ball over a lot, and he is the reason that Tatum, Brown and Hayward are off this season.  There is no movement and fluidity to their offense.  It is patently obvious.  Irving reminds me of those players from the 70s and 80s who were fantastic one on one, but never made their team great. 

He should be traded to someone who sees his amazing skill but doesn't recognize his self-focused play.

I don't have the numbers but I don't think Kyrie is turnover prone. Seems to be gassed from the flu, as others have noted.

Everything else you raise has been talked about in this thread.


Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #383 on: January 26, 2019, 10:58:31 PM »

Offline gouki88

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How many of these people who come on these forums to say "Trade Kyrie" are Knicks fans?
Probably all of them. Explains the absolute lack of being in touch with reality
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PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #384 on: January 26, 2019, 10:59:46 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

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Alright who are we trading tonight now that the Celtics snapped their 10-game home winning streak and 4-game winning streak?

Kyrie huh. Morris? Maybe Tatum! Or the cliche Rozier/Brown/Hayward!


#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown)
#JFJM (Just Fire Joe Mazzulla)

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #385 on: January 26, 2019, 11:02:37 PM »

Online Roy H.

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We went toe to toe with a modern day dynasty, Kyrie was amazing, and the response is “trade him”.  Nice.

He had some bad turnovers. He also put up 32 / 6 / 10 and made some huge shots.


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Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #386 on: January 26, 2019, 11:08:38 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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We went toe to toe with a modern day dynasty, Kyrie was amazing, and the response is “trade him”.  Nice.

He had some bad turnovers. He also put up 32 / 6 / 10 and made some huge shots.

He's fantastic.  As in, it seems like he must have magical powers.


I genuinely think the anti-Kyrie people are either not really watching the games or, in the case of posters with very few posts, may actually be hoping the Celts trade Kyrie so some other team gets him.
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
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Re: Kyrie is amazing and should be traded for sure
« Reply #387 on: January 26, 2019, 11:10:44 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Okay, it's only sports.  So it's not life and death  But it is absolutely clear to me that the Celtics are not a better TEAM with Kyrie than they are without him.  Stay with me here.

When he has the ball, which is most of the time at the beginning of their offensive sets, the rest of the team is waiting for him to do something, and then they get to contribute IF he doesn't try to score and IF he decides to pass them the ball. 

Irving often does something amazing.  He's so talented.  But he also turns the ball over a lot, and he is the reason that Tatum, Brown and Hayward are off this season.  There is no movement and fluidity to their offense.  It is patently obvious.  Irving reminds me of those players from the 70s and 80s who were fantastic one on one, but never made their team great. 

He should be traded to someone who sees his amazing skill but doesn't recognize his self-focused play.

Cool! For what?
Yep, exactly. It's one thing to say we should trade him, it's another thing to come up with a realistic trade idea.

Kyrie is about to hit free agency. Chances are that most teams wouldn't feel confident about re-signing him next summer, hence we'd have to find a team willing to take that risk. Good luck with that.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #388 on: January 26, 2019, 11:10:45 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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We went toe to toe with a modern day dynasty, Kyrie was amazing, and the response is “trade him”.  Nice.

He had some bad turnovers. He also put up 32 / 6 / 10 and made some huge shots.
Oh, don't you know Roy? Once a player has reached their highest value, you must max out his value and trade him.

Re: Trade Irving for the sake of the team
« Reply #389 on: January 26, 2019, 11:11:29 PM »

Offline gouki88

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We went toe to toe with a modern day dynasty, Kyrie was amazing, and the response is “trade him”.  Nice.

He had some bad turnovers. He also put up 32 / 6 / 10 and made some huge shots.
Oh, don't you know Roy? Once a player has reached their highest value, you must max out his value and trade him.
If only we did that with Rozier!
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)