Poll

Who should be the starting PF

Robert Williams
3 (3.4%)
Grant Williams
13 (14.6%)
Gordon Hayward
65 (73%)
Daniel Theis
8 (9%)

Total Members Voted: 89

Author Topic: Poll: Who should be the starting PF  (Read 15317 times)

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Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #90 on: July 19, 2019, 12:51:52 PM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.




 And although Smart. Brad is a fool for continuing with this nonsense.

 Stop trying to reinvent the wheel Brad. The Celtics are not winning a title with Gordon Hayward at Power forward.

Shane on Danny to. Your frontline

Was 7 foot Parish
6'10" McHale
6'9" Bird

 

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #91 on: July 19, 2019, 01:45:08 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court. 

The two-big lineup that was most used was only the ninth-most used lineup last year. This was in stark contrast to the year before.

Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.

Yes, though they also usually included Morris. Tatum (or Morris, depending on the matchup) was never a second big.

Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

One big, clearly. It's really not a question of perspective. Today's swings play a game that's more like today's wings (obviously that's true for Brad Stevens, who's said that he sees only three positions) - and less like the power forwards of yesteryear.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 01:57:14 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #92 on: July 19, 2019, 01:56:03 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.




 And although Smart. Brad is a fool for continuing with this nonsense.

 Stop trying to reinvent the wheel Brad. The Celtics are not winning a title with Gordon Hayward at Power forward.

Shane on Danny to. Your frontline

Was 7 foot Parish
6'10" McHale
6'9" Bird

With all due respect, I find your point of view quaint.

The game has changed because the rules have changed, not because "positionless basketball", or three-position ball, or whatever, is a passing fad. The game has opened up - I for one don't miss all the isos and the static sets from the past.

The rules changes privilege speed and skill, and showcase athleticism.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 03:00:09 PM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #93 on: July 19, 2019, 02:07:17 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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And how, in 2019, are we even defining “Power Forward”, since the league, and in particular, Boston’s head coach, aren’t using that term because they aren’t thinking that way anymore?

And while you may well have seen moments last season here Brad may have gone small with say, Tatum and Morris up front - that's definitely more the exception then the rule, and would be something that would be done iin rare occasions just to match up differently or throw a different look out there.

By far the most used lineup last season was Irving-Smart-Tatum-Morris-Horford. The second most used lineup (though already much less) was Irving-Brown-Tatum-Hayward-Horford.

I could go down the list; but the point is that the big/swing lineups were the rule, and the two-big lineups were very much the exception. 

If Baynes had been healthier, I suppose that we would have seen something more like 2018; but in fact last year even when Baynes played he was more likely to be paired with Morris than Horford or Theis.  As I mentioned above, Theis virtually never played with another big.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #94 on: July 19, 2019, 02:38:11 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I am not sure why people are so sure about Morris being a true PF at 6'9", while they couldn't imagine Tatum (also 6'9") or Hayward (6'8") playing the position. Morris even came to the team as a SF and his game greatly resembled that of a SF.

I agree that having Horford's defense helped mitigate any issues in the front court, but at least Kanter (or Poirier?) are very big individuals who should be able to bang with the best of them down on the low post. Everybody else should be switching like crazy on the perimeter.

I personally just don't see any way we don't have a starting line-up that includes both Hayward/Tatum at the Forward spots going into the season. It may not last, or a trade may occur, but these two are by far the best options on opening night. Starting anybody else could once again cause discourse similar to what we had last season.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #95 on: July 19, 2019, 02:47:11 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Tacko should be the power forward with someone taller at Center!

you bloody well knew you d get a TP for say n that  ;D

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #96 on: July 19, 2019, 02:56:02 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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I am not sure why people are so sure about Morris being a true PF at 6'9", while they couldn't imagine Tatum (also 6'9") or Hayward (6'8") playing the position. Morris even came to the team as a SF and his game greatly resembled that of a SF.

Your main point here is a good one, I think. His game is a wing's game; he's not a "true PF". His offensive rebounding numbers, for example, have always been minuscule (and his defensive rebounding has never cracked 20%...).

Having said that, the main difference is weight: Morris 235, Hayward 225, and Tatum 210.

I agree that having Horford's defense helped mitigate any issues in the front court, but at least Kanter (or Poirier?) are very big individuals who should be able to bang with the best of them down on the low post. Everybody else should be switching like crazy on the perimeter.

A bigger priority, I think, is pick and roll defense, and here, at least, I think that Daniel Theis has an advantage (perhaps I'd feel differently if I knew Poirier's game better).

I personally just don't see any way we don't have a starting line-up that includes both Hayward/Tatum at the Forward spots going into the season. It may not last, or a trade may occur, but these two are by far the best options on opening night. Starting anybody else could once again cause discourse similar to what we had last season.

Meaning, I take it, that one of those two is the swing? Perhaps you're right.
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #97 on: July 20, 2019, 05:57:37 AM »

Offline RockinRyA

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I am not sure why people are so sure about Morris being a true PF at 6'9", while they couldn't imagine Tatum (also 6'9") or Hayward (6'8") playing the position. Morris even came to the team as a SF and his game greatly resembled that of a SF.

I agree that having Horford's defense helped mitigate any issues in the front court, but at least Kanter (or Poirier?) are very big individuals who should be able to bang with the best of them down on the low post. Everybody else should be switching like crazy on the perimeter.

I personally just don't see any way we don't have a starting line-up that includes both Hayward/Tatum at the Forward spots going into the season. It may not last, or a trade may occur, but these two are by far the best options on opening night. Starting anybody else could once again cause discourse similar to what we had last season.

I think it has more to do with Morris having more bulk and strength to defend bigger guys.

To hoopvortex:

One of the reasons why the 2 big lineup wasn't used as much last season is because Baynes and even Horford missed a lot of time. We also had more wings that needed minutes.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #98 on: July 20, 2019, 07:29:09 AM »

Offline RodyTur10

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I am not sure why people are so sure about Morris being a true PF at 6'9", while they couldn't imagine Tatum (also 6'9") or Hayward (6'8") playing the position. Morris even came to the team as a SF and his game greatly resembled that of a SF.

I agree that having Horford's defense helped mitigate any issues in the front court, but at least Kanter (or Poirier?) are very big individuals who should be able to bang with the best of them down on the low post. Everybody else should be switching like crazy on the perimeter.

I personally just don't see any way we don't have a starting line-up that includes both Hayward/Tatum at the Forward spots going into the season. It may not last, or a trade may occur, but these two are by far the best options on opening night. Starting anybody else could once again cause discourse similar to what we had last season.

I think it has more to do with Morris having more bulk and strength to defend bigger guys.

To hoopvortex:

One of the reasons why the 2 big lineup wasn't used as much last season is because Baynes and even Horford missed a lot of time. We also had more wings that needed minutes.

And Stevens wanted to keep everybody happy. Rozier got regular minutes even if that wasn't the best for the team. Stevens put individual interests above the team and lost credibility and accountability in the process. Very bad management.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #99 on: July 20, 2019, 11:53:00 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.




 And although Smart. Brad is a fool for continuing with this nonsense.

 Stop trying to reinvent the wheel Brad. The Celtics are not winning a title with Gordon Hayward at Power forward.

Shane on Danny to. Your frontline

Was 7 foot Parish
6'10" McHale
6'9" Bird

With all due respect, I find your point of view quaint.

The game has changed because the rules have changed, not because "positionless basketball", or three-position ball, or whatever, is a passing fad. The game has opened up - I for one don't miss all the isos and the static sets from the past.

The rules changes privilege speed and skill, and showcase athleticism.



 Oh really? It's changed so much right.

 Last year's champion.

 C Marc Gasol 7 Feet slow as dirt. Way slower than Tacko.

 PF Ibaka 6'10" Shot blocker

 Sf 6'10" Siakam

Sg 6'7 Kawhi

PG 6'1"

 Defense and rebounding win championships. Still need at least 1 star Kawhi.

 but that's all they had one star and a team full of big tall rebounding shot-blocking defensive players.

 does Golden State dynasty run has got everybody thinking crazy you'll never see guys like that assembled again.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #100 on: July 20, 2019, 12:21:18 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.




 And although Smart. Brad is a fool for continuing with this nonsense.

 Stop trying to reinvent the wheel Brad. The Celtics are not winning a title with Gordon Hayward at Power forward.

Shane on Danny to. Your frontline

Was 7 foot Parish
6'10" McHale
6'9" Bird

With all due respect, I find your point of view quaint.

The game has changed because the rules have changed, not because "positionless basketball", or three-position ball, or whatever, is a passing fad. The game has opened up - I for one don't miss all the isos and the static sets from the past.

The rules changes privilege speed and skill, and showcase athleticism.



 Oh really? It's changed so much right.

 Last year's champion.

 C Marc Gasol 7 Feet slow as dirt. Way slower than Tacko.

 PF Ibaka 6'10" Shot blocker

 Sf 6'10" Siakam

Sg 6'7 Kawhi

PG 6'1"

 Defense and rebounding win championships. Still need at least 1 star Kawhi.

 but that's all they had one star and a team full of big tall rebounding shot-blocking defensive players.

 does Golden State dynasty run has got everybody thinking crazy you'll never see guys like that assembled again.
Serge Ibaka was 7th in minutes played

Their lineup was Lowry-Green-Leonard-Siakam-Gasol

Ibaka played less than 100 minutes the entire playoffs at the 4. He was their backup 5.

Siakam is lightning quick and played the 4. Leonard played the 3 registering less than 20 minutes at the 2 the entire playoffs.

Furthermore, Siakam is 6’9” not 6’10.

Why do you feel the need to make stuff up in order to further your point?
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #101 on: July 20, 2019, 12:52:27 PM »

Offline Somebody

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The position that seems to have been eliminated is center. In the new terminology you have ball handlers (point guards), wings (shooting guards), swings (small forwards) and bigs (power fowards and centers.

Brad has said more than once that he has 3 positions

Ball handlers
Wings
Bigs

This forum has been over this many times.  You can call them guards and forwards or wings and bigs, or anything you want.  This question of who will play PF could just as easily have been who will play the second big position and everything that followed would be the same pretty much.

The more fundamental question is whether the Celtics will play with two bigs.  Their best line ups last season, and most used line ups, were the ones with Horford (a big) and one of Morris, Baynes, or Theis.  Now you can nit pick that Morris is more of a swing than a big but I think you see the point.

The Celtics did play some with "small" units with only Horford as the true big on the court.  Usually these line ups included Tatum who you could consider the second big or the PF.  Now under that scenario, is Tatum playing PF or are the Celtics playing with only one big?  I say the latter but you say tomato....

Yes Ive been saying this.

Brad has classified the positions into 3 (or 4) Ballhandlers, Wings, (swings) and Bigs. Now what matters is what lineup is he using on the floor, is it a lineup with 2 bigs (Horford, Baynes), 2 Ballhandlers ( Irving, Smart), the dreaded three ballhandlers (IT, Bradley, Smart) etc.




 And although Smart. Brad is a fool for continuing with this nonsense.

 Stop trying to reinvent the wheel Brad. The Celtics are not winning a title with Gordon Hayward at Power forward.

Shane on Danny to. Your frontline

Was 7 foot Parish
6'10" McHale
6'9" Bird

With all due respect, I find your point of view quaint.

The game has changed because the rules have changed, not because "positionless basketball", or three-position ball, or whatever, is a passing fad. The game has opened up - I for one don't miss all the isos and the static sets from the past.

The rules changes privilege speed and skill, and showcase athleticism.



 Oh really? It's changed so much right.

 Last year's champion.

 C Marc Gasol 7 Feet slow as dirt. Way slower than Tacko.

 PF Ibaka 6'10" Shot blocker

 Sf 6'10" Siakam

Sg 6'7 Kawhi

PG 6'1"

 Defense and rebounding win championships. Still need at least 1 star Kawhi.

 but that's all they had one star and a team full of big tall rebounding shot-blocking defensive players.

 does Golden State dynasty run has got everybody thinking crazy you'll never see guys like that assembled again.
Serge Ibaka was 7th in minutes played

Their lineup was Lowry-Green-Leonard-Siakam-Gasol

Ibaka played less than 100 minutes the entire playoffs at the 4. He was their backup 5.

Siakam is lightning quick and played the 4. Leonard played the 3 registering less than 20 minutes at the 2 the entire playoffs.

Furthermore, Siakam is 6’9” not 6’10.

Why do you feel the need to make stuff up in order to further your point?
Agreed that KG is exaggerating the sizes and lineups of the Raptors a bit, but his point is still valid: the modern NBA has just shifted from prioritising pure size to championing skilled and mobile size. The Raptors were in no shortage of size and length in that championship run.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #102 on: July 20, 2019, 02:13:48 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I think with the Raptors, it was more about having a true superstar and solid depth than it was being a powerhouse up front. Siakam at PF compared to Tatum/Hayward at PF is a wash to me in terms of size and ability to guard different areas of the floor. What we need to hope for is that Theis/Poirier (or TL/Grant) can actually give us meaningful Ibaka-like minutes at the back up big positions.

It also cannot be said enough, the Raptors got all-time luck when it came to the timing of GSW injuries. They also saw perhaps the most unlikely bounce to win a game (and series) in the ECSF. Using them as a benchmark may leave you a step behind.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #103 on: July 20, 2019, 02:26:24 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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I think with the Raptors, it was more about having a true superstar and solid depth than it was being a powerhouse up front. Siakam at PF compared to Tatum/Hayward at PF is a wash to me in terms of size and ability to guard different areas of the floor. What we need to hope for is that Theis/Poirier (or TL/Grant) can actually give us meaningful Ibaka-like minutes at the back up big positions.

It also cannot be said enough, the Raptors got all-time luck when it came to the timing of GSW injuries. They also saw perhaps the most unlikely bounce to win a game (and series) in the ECSF. Using them as a benchmark may leave you a step behind.
Siakam is 6’9 with a >7’3” wingspan

He’s notably bigger than Tatum and Hayward
Quote from: George W. Bush
Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.

Re: Poll: Who should be the starting PF
« Reply #104 on: July 20, 2019, 03:15:33 PM »

Offline Jvalin

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Tatum (32 mins) > G. Williams (16 mins) > Theis (basically in a towel-waving role unless we face injury problems or/and CBS wants to rest players)

I'd use Hayward almost exclusively at SF. We need him to find his old self as soon as possible. Don't think it would help him playing out of position. Not to mention, Tatum is a better rebounder than Hayward. Having Tatum closer to the basket would help us secure more rebs.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 11:20:06 PM by Jvalin »