Why does IME insist on starting Marcus over Schroeder?

[Who]

Ok. back to old line up. Same result. In the hole.  I rest my case.

It has nothing to do with Tatum and Brown being absolutely dreadful offensively so far, though, right?

Part of the reason they are dreadful is the lack of dribble penetration and playmaking without Schroder there.

After seeing that suggestion in the game thread;

That's not a Smart vs Schröder issue.

That's a Schröder vs Brown issue.

Yes, I see Schroder and Tatum as the first two names down on the team sheet.

It should be Jaylen & Tatum but the team is not well constructed around them and the duo are not getting the guard help they need to play next to two big men.

So from Schroder and Tatum you have 4 choices:

(1) Schroder, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(2) Schroder, Smart, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(3) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford
(4) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Rob Williams

I do worry about Schroder, Jaylen and Tatum together as there is only one basketball and do feel that they are best served being split up. Since Schroder and Tatum are the two most indispensable parts of the team's offense, that leaves Jaylen as the odd man out.

I like Jaylen off the bench as a 6th man. It would be a temporary solution to the problem rather than a long term one. Schroder is likely only here for the year. Horford and Rob Williams is not a long term fixture either given Horford's age. Jaylen will resume his place in the starting lineup after the roster changes in the summer. For now though, yeah, I like it.

Jaylen would still be the clear cut #2 guy on the team despite coming off the bench. They can still get him around 28-31mpg. He'll still score 20+ppg.

[blink]

Ok. back to old line up. Same result. In the hole.  I rest my case.

It has nothing to do with Tatum and Brown being absolutely dreadful offensively so far, though, right?

Part of the reason they are dreadful is the lack of dribble penetration and playmaking without Schroder there.

After seeing that suggestion in the game thread;

That's not a Smart vs Schröder issue.

That's a Schröder vs Brown issue.

Yes, I see Schroder and Tatum as the first two names down on the team sheet.

It should be Jaylen & Tatum but the team is not well constructed around them and the duo are not getting the guard help they need to play next to two big men.

So from Schroder and Tatum you have 4 choices:

(1) Schroder, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(2) Schroder, Smart, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(3) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford
(4) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Rob Williams

I do worry about Schroder, Jaylen and Tatum together as there is only one basketball and do feel that they are best served being split up. Since Schroder and Tatum are the two most indispensable parts of the team's offense, that leaves Jaylen as the odd man out.

I like Jaylen off the bench as a 6th man. It would be a temporary solution to the problem rather than a long term one. Schroder is likely only here for the year. Horford and Rob Williams is not a long term fixture either given Horford's age. Jaylen will resume his place in the starting lineup after the roster changes in the summer. For now though, yeah, I like it.

Jaylen would still be the clear cut #2 guy on the team despite coming off the bench. They can still get him around 28-31mpg. He'll still score 20+ppg.

This is a complete over-reaction to one bad game.  Brown was obviously not 100%, he probably wanted to be out there to try and beat the Nets.  Ime probably should have held him out.  Tatum was awful tonight as well.  That doesn't mean you don't start Tatum either.

Brown isn't coming off the bench, it isn't happening, it doesn't make any sense at all.   We have two all stars on our team that average over 25 points a game, neither one is coming off the bench.
I will eat my hat if Ime does that. 

[Who]

Ok. back to old line up. Same result. In the hole.  I rest my case.

It has nothing to do with Tatum and Brown being absolutely dreadful offensively so far, though, right?

Part of the reason they are dreadful is the lack of dribble penetration and playmaking without Schroder there.

After seeing that suggestion in the game thread;

That's not a Smart vs Schröder issue.

That's a Schröder vs Brown issue.

Yes, I see Schroder and Tatum as the first two names down on the team sheet.

It should be Jaylen & Tatum but the team is not well constructed around them and the duo are not getting the guard help they need to play next to two big men.

So from Schroder and Tatum you have 4 choices:

(1) Schroder, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(2) Schroder, Smart, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(3) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford
(4) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Rob Williams

I do worry about Schroder, Jaylen and Tatum together as there is only one basketball and do feel that they are best served being split up. Since Schroder and Tatum are the two most indispensable parts of the team's offense, that leaves Jaylen as the odd man out.

I like Jaylen off the bench as a 6th man. It would be a temporary solution to the problem rather than a long term one. Schroder is likely only here for the year. Horford and Rob Williams is not a long term fixture either given Horford's age. Jaylen will resume his place in the starting lineup after the roster changes in the summer. For now though, yeah, I like it.

Jaylen would still be the clear cut #2 guy on the team despite coming off the bench. They can still get him around 28-31mpg. He'll still score 20+ppg.

This is a complete over-reaction to one bad game.  Brown was obviously not 100%, he probably wanted to be out there to try and beat the Nets.  Ime probably should have held him out.  Tatum was awful tonight as well.  That doesn't mean you don't start Tatum either.

Brown isn't coming off the bench, it isn't happening, it doesn't make any sense at all.   We have two all stars on our team that average over 25 points a game, neither one is coming off the bench.
I will eat my hat if Ime does that.

It is not about one game. I mentioned bringing Jaylen off the bench a few days or week or so ago.

The balance of this team is not good in the current starting lineup and it needs to change. I offered 4 options for changes to help fix the current problems and Jaylen comes off the bench in only one of them but it is an option I like.

I believe it deserves more thought because I do believe it would work well for this current cast of Celtics. I thought the team's chemistry worked well while Jaylen was out and I have long liked Smart as a SG next to a dribble drive threat at PG.

[blink]

Ok. back to old line up. Same result. In the hole.  I rest my case.

It has nothing to do with Tatum and Brown being absolutely dreadful offensively so far, though, right?

Part of the reason they are dreadful is the lack of dribble penetration and playmaking without Schroder there.

After seeing that suggestion in the game thread;

That's not a Smart vs Schröder issue.

That's a Schröder vs Brown issue.

Yes, I see Schroder and Tatum as the first two names down on the team sheet.

It should be Jaylen & Tatum but the team is not well constructed around them and the duo are not getting the guard help they need to play next to two big men.

So from Schroder and Tatum you have 4 choices:

(1) Schroder, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(2) Schroder, Smart, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(3) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford
(4) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Rob Williams

I do worry about Schroder, Jaylen and Tatum together as there is only one basketball and do feel that they are best served being split up. Since Schroder and Tatum are the two most indispensable parts of the team's offense, that leaves Jaylen as the odd man out.

I like Jaylen off the bench as a 6th man. It would be a temporary solution to the problem rather than a long term one. Schroder is likely only here for the year. Horford and Rob Williams is not a long term fixture either given Horford's age. Jaylen will resume his place in the starting lineup after the roster changes in the summer. For now though, yeah, I like it.

Jaylen would still be the clear cut #2 guy on the team despite coming off the bench. They can still get him around 28-31mpg. He'll still score 20+ppg.

This is a complete over-reaction to one bad game.  Brown was obviously not 100%, he probably wanted to be out there to try and beat the Nets.  Ime probably should have held him out.  Tatum was awful tonight as well.  That doesn't mean you don't start Tatum either.

Brown isn't coming off the bench, it isn't happening, it doesn't make any sense at all.   We have two all stars on our team that average over 25 points a game, neither one is coming off the bench.
I will eat my hat if Ime does that.

It is not about one game. I mentioned bringing Jaylen off the bench a few days or week or so ago.

The balance of this team is not good in the current starting lineup and it needs to change. I offered 4 options for changes to help fix the current problems and Jaylen comes off the bench in only one of them but it is an option I like.

I believe it deserves more thought because I do believe it would work well for this current cast of Celtics. I thought the team's chemistry worked well while Jaylen was out and I have long liked Smart as a SG next to a dribble drive threat at PG.

The team also played poorly for a number of games while Jaylen was out too.  So just because you said it one week ago makes it more valid?  That isn't a support of your idea. 

I just can't believe I am hearing options where Brown comes off the bench.  That isn't going to fix any problems, but it will def create some.

We have two all star players.  Those two are going to start.  If it is between Brown and DS, Brown is going to start.  If it is between Brown and Smart, Brown is going to start. 

[Kiorrik]

Ok. back to old line up. Same result. In the hole.  I rest my case.

It has nothing to do with Tatum and Brown being absolutely dreadful offensively so far, though, right?

Part of the reason they are dreadful is the lack of dribble penetration and playmaking without Schroder there.

After seeing that suggestion in the game thread;

That's not a Smart vs Schröder issue.

That's a Schröder vs Brown issue.

Yes, I see Schroder and Tatum as the first two names down on the team sheet.

It should be Jaylen & Tatum but the team is not well constructed around them and the duo are not getting the guard help they need to play next to two big men.

So from Schroder and Tatum you have 4 choices:

(1) Schroder, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(2) Schroder, Smart, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(3) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford
(4) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Rob Williams

I do worry about Schroder, Jaylen and Tatum together as there is only one basketball and do feel that they are best served being split up. Since Schroder and Tatum are the two most indispensable parts of the team's offense, that leaves Jaylen as the odd man out.

I like Jaylen off the bench as a 6th man. It would be a temporary solution to the problem rather than a long term one. Schroder is likely only here for the year. Horford and Rob Williams is not a long term fixture either given Horford's age. Jaylen will resume his place in the starting lineup after the roster changes in the summer. For now though, yeah, I like it.

Jaylen would still be the clear cut #2 guy on the team despite coming off the bench. They can still get him around 28-31mpg. He'll still score 20+ppg.

This is a complete over-reaction to one bad game.  Brown was obviously not 100%, he probably wanted to be out there to try and beat the Nets.  Ime probably should have held him out.  Tatum was awful tonight as well.  That doesn't mean you don't start Tatum either.

Brown isn't coming off the bench, it isn't happening, it doesn't make any sense at all.   We have two all stars on our team that average over 25 points a game, neither one is coming off the bench.
I will eat my hat if Ime does that.

It is not about one game. I mentioned bringing Jaylen off the bench a few days or week or so ago.

The balance of this team is not good in the current starting lineup and it needs to change. I offered 4 options for changes to help fix the current problems and Jaylen comes off the bench in only one of them but it is an option I like.

I believe it deserves more thought because I do believe it would work well for this current cast of Celtics. I thought the team's chemistry worked well while Jaylen was out and I have long liked Smart as a SG next to a dribble drive threat at PG.

The team also played poorly for a number of games while Jaylen was out too.  So just because you said it one week ago makes it more valid?  That isn't a support of your idea. 

I just can't believe I am hearing options where Brown comes off the bench.  That isn't going to fix any problems, but it will def create some.

We have two all star players.  Those two are going to start.  If it is between Brown and DS, Brown is going to start.  If it is between Brown and Smart, Brown is going to start.

I love how your only argument is "top 10 worst idea", "can't believe it" and just repeating the same "not gonna happen" line over and over and over again.

We're at least pointing at games where certain line-ups worked. At other teams with similar circumstances (Manu Ginobili could've been a starter on any given team). At the fact that the Dennis + Marcus line-up produces hella results. Etc.

Still not hearing a good argument against it, just more "dumbest idea" lines.

.edit: I'm actually not giving you enough credit for your "complete overreaction" retort. That was actually valid. My bad. But Who answered that in his response.

[Somebody]

Ok. back to old line up. Same result. In the hole.  I rest my case.

It has nothing to do with Tatum and Brown being absolutely dreadful offensively so far, though, right?

Part of the reason they are dreadful is the lack of dribble penetration and playmaking without Schroder there.

After seeing that suggestion in the game thread;

That's not a Smart vs Schröder issue.

That's a Schröder vs Brown issue.

Yes, I see Schroder and Tatum as the first two names down on the team sheet.

It should be Jaylen & Tatum but the team is not well constructed around them and the duo are not getting the guard help they need to play next to two big men.

So from Schroder and Tatum you have 4 choices:

(1) Schroder, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(2) Schroder, Smart, Tatum, Horford, Rob Williams
(3) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Horford
(4) Schroder, Smart, Jaylen, Tatum, Rob Williams

I do worry about Schroder, Jaylen and Tatum together as there is only one basketball and do feel that they are best served being split up. Since Schroder and Tatum are the two most indispensable parts of the team's offense, that leaves Jaylen as the odd man out.

I like Jaylen off the bench as a 6th man. It would be a temporary solution to the problem rather than a long term one. Schroder is likely only here for the year. Horford and Rob Williams is not a long term fixture either given Horford's age. Jaylen will resume his place in the starting lineup after the roster changes in the summer. For now though, yeah, I like it.

Jaylen would still be the clear cut #2 guy on the team despite coming off the bench. They can still get him around 28-31mpg. He'll still score 20+ppg.

This is a complete over-reaction to one bad game.  Brown was obviously not 100%, he probably wanted to be out there to try and beat the Nets.  Ime probably should have held him out.  Tatum was awful tonight as well.  That doesn't mean you don't start Tatum either.

Brown isn't coming off the bench, it isn't happening, it doesn't make any sense at all.   We have two all stars on our team that average over 25 points a game, neither one is coming off the bench.
I will eat my hat if Ime does that.

It is not about one game. I mentioned bringing Jaylen off the bench a few days or week or so ago.

The balance of this team is not good in the current starting lineup and it needs to change. I offered 4 options for changes to help fix the current problems and Jaylen comes off the bench in only one of them but it is an option I like.

I believe it deserves more thought because I do believe it would work well for this current cast of Celtics. I thought the team's chemistry worked well while Jaylen was out and I have long liked Smart as a SG next to a dribble drive threat at PG.

The team also played poorly for a number of games while Jaylen was out too.  So just because you said it one week ago makes it more valid?  That isn't a support of your idea. 

I just can't believe I am hearing options where Brown comes off the bench.  That isn't going to fix any problems, but it will def create some.

We have two all star players.  Those two are going to start.  If it is between Brown and DS, Brown is going to start.  If it is between Brown and Smart, Brown is going to start.

I love how your only argument is "top 10 worst idea", "can't believe it" and just repeating the same "not gonna happen" line over and over and over again.

We're at least pointing at games where certain line-ups worked. At other teams with similar circumstances (Manu Ginobili could've been a starter on any given team). At the fact that the Dennis + Marcus line-up produces hella results. Etc.

Still not hearing a good argument against it, just more "dumbest idea" lines.

.edit: I'm actually not giving you enough credit for your "complete overreaction" retort. That was actually valid. My bad. But Who answered that in his response.

Ginobili had issues with playing heavy minutes (this held in the playoffs relative to his peers): he only crossed 30 MPG once in his career, including his first couple of prime years where he started most of his games. He was just more suited to be a sixth man with his minute load: it made sense to have him anchoring the bench unit and make sure that the backups were decent offensively. This is not the case with Brown - his MPG has been in the mid-30s in recent years (which is high considering the landscape of the modern NBA). If anything, he's perfectly suited to play in a secondary or tertiary role if we knew how to utilise Brown off the ball other than parking him in the corner or wing as the second coming of Bruce Bowen: his combination of shooting and quick moves off the catch to score on all three levels meshes well next to on-ball creators.

What I would suggest is to stagger Schroeder and Tatum and have one of them on the court at all times with Brown being their co-pilot in terms of on-ball load, or even have Brown carry a comparable load to Schroeder. There are simply much better ways to optimise the offensive talent we have instead of benching a star wing who's capable of playing heavy minutes as either a co-star or focal point.

[Kiorrik]

TP for bringing up some great points and schooling me on Manu. Didn't know that!

[goz421]

People are missing the point. The problem is chemistry of players starting. All year with this line up we have had horrendous starts.  My opinion is when the ball is starting the offense in Marcus hands and we have Tatum and Brown on wings we have no ability to create space. This is so because Smart s not a natural point guard and can not successfully collapse the defense. He starts it slow and then Tatum and Brown are pressed to score with dwindling time clock and heavy pressure. Hence, a lot of forced shots and no flow.

Schroeder though not a great passer better collapses the defense. We need to ball in his hands to start the game and end it.

IME needs to stop catering to Marcus Smarts ego and find the proper place for him to fit.

[Birdman]

Schroeder needs to start

[The Oracle]

The Celtics are 13W-5L in the minutes Smart was on the floor so far this year.

The Celtics are 3W-16L in the minutes Smart has not been on the floor.  Yes that is correct the C's have only outscored their opponents 3 times in 19 games when Smart is NOT on the floor.

The C's currently have their highest offensive rating when Smart is on the floor (110.4) of any player on the team, Schroder is (106.4)

Smart has an assist/turnover ratio of 3.19/1, Schroder is at 1.74/1

The C's have a Net rating of +8.9 with both Smart and Schroder on the floor, +6.8 with just Smart and -7.0 with just Schroder.

[Kiorrik]

The Celtics are 13W-5L in the minutes Smart was on the floor so far this year.

The Celtics are 3W-16L in the minutes Smart has not been on the floor.  Yes that is correct the C's have only outscored their opponents 3 times in 19 games when Smart is NOT on the floor.

The C's currently have their highest offensive rating when Smart is on the floor (110.4) of any player on the team, Schroder is (106.4)

Smart has an assist/turnover ratio of 3.19/1, Schroder is at 1.74/1

The C's have a Net rating of +8.9 with both Smart and Schroder on the floor, +6.8 with just Smart and -7.0 with just Schroder.

Further proof that the eye test is biased on singular moments.

It is what it is.

[Ogaju]

The Celtics are 13W-5L in the minutes Smart was on the floor so far this year.

The Celtics are 3W-16L in the minutes Smart has not been on the floor.  Yes that is correct the C's have only outscored their opponents 3 times in 19 games when Smart is NOT on the floor.

The C's currently have their highest offensive rating when Smart is on the floor (110.4) of any player on the team, Schroder is (106.4)

Smart has an assist/turnover ratio of 3.19/1, Schroder is at 1.74/1

The C's have a Net rating of +8.9 with both Smart and Schroder on the floor, +6.8 with just Smart and -7.0 with just Schroder.

Further proof that the eye test is biased on singular moments.

It is what it is.

Yet y’all just rag on Smart. Just amazing how  fans can just rag on players without proof.

[Kiorrik]

The Celtics are 13W-5L in the minutes Smart was on the floor so far this year.

The Celtics are 3W-16L in the minutes Smart has not been on the floor.  Yes that is correct the C's have only outscored their opponents 3 times in 19 games when Smart is NOT on the floor.

The C's currently have their highest offensive rating when Smart is on the floor (110.4) of any player on the team, Schroder is (106.4)

Smart has an assist/turnover ratio of 3.19/1, Schroder is at 1.74/1

The C's have a Net rating of +8.9 with both Smart and Schroder on the floor, +6.8 with just Smart and -7.0 with just Schroder.

Further proof that the eye test is biased on singular moments.

It is what it is.

Yet y’all just rag on Smart. Just amazing how  fans can just rag on players without proof.

Hey don't include me.

I love the feller.

[Hoopvortex]

The Celtics are 13W-5L in the minutes Smart was on the floor so far this year.

The Celtics are 3W-16L in the minutes Smart has not been on the floor.  Yes that is correct the C's have only outscored their opponents 3 times in 19 games when Smart is NOT on the floor.

The C's currently have their highest offensive rating when Smart is on the floor (110.4) of any player on the team, Schroder is (106.4)

Smart has an assist/turnover ratio of 3.19/1, Schroder is at 1.74/1

The C's have a Net rating of +8.9 with both Smart and Schroder on the floor, +6.8 with just Smart and -7.0 with just Schroder.

Further proof that the eye test is biased on singular moments.

It is what it is.

The eye test is only as good as what the eye is looking for.

[Hoopvortex]

The Celtics are 13W-5L in the minutes Smart was on the floor so far this year.

The Celtics are 3W-16L in the minutes Smart has not been on the floor.  Yes that is correct the C's have only outscored their opponents 3 times in 19 games when Smart is NOT on the floor.

The C's currently have their highest offensive rating when Smart is on the floor (110.4) of any player on the team, Schroder is (106.4)

Smart has an assist/turnover ratio of 3.19/1, Schroder is at 1.74/1

The C's have a Net rating of +8.9 with both Smart and Schroder on the floor, +6.8 with just Smart and -7.0 with just Schroder.

A The Oracle sighting!

And a very timely post.

The most interesting bit is the counterintuitive last paragraph. Two ballhandlers on the floor adds a lot in today’s game.

Can we please retire the ‘Marcus Smart is not a point guard’ repetitions?