Best young hybrid forward: Jayson Tatum vs Ben Simmons vs Pascal Siakam

[Fierce1]

Luka >>> everyone else

Btw, 29 points, 15 assists, 14 rebs tonight @Cleveland. Luka is the real deal.

That's the name I was waiting for someone to mention.

How he slipped to 3rd I'll never know.

DAL backed into the jackpot. A couple of years ago, their future hinged on DSJ. They then went out and got Luka while somehow turning DSJ into Porzingis and they are now one of the most exciting young teams in the league. I am happy to be a Cs fan and appreciate all that Danny and co. have done, but we really need one of our young guys to break out as a superstar. It's really only fair.

Jayson Tatum is breaking out this season.

Kemba and Tatum are All-Star candidates this season

[tazzmaniac]

I don't see what step forward Simmons has taken this year. He's turning it over way more, rebounding less and shooting worse. He's also not a forward, according to himself and his coaches. Simmons also has a unique game - but not for the better. His Shaq-like shooting touch is crippling come playoff time.

Siakam isn't really young, but he's the best of the three. He can defend lots of positions, has a balanced scoring game and is a steadily improving passer.

Tatum is considerably younger than both. He's also the best shooter. It's between him and Siakam.

100% dead on. A player who is a liability at crunch time can't be the "best" anything.

Simmons is a very interesting case.  He's by far the best passer and in transition.  He's a very good rebounder.  He's also the best and most versatile defender.  It boggles the mind how he go through all those years without developing some kind of a jump shot. 

[Jvalin]

How he slipped to 3rd I'll never know.

He's white and he's from Europe.

The Ringer said it the best:

''His game was strong, but we needed proof
we hadn't seen him play Mizzou''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE23ajVX930

We had the #3 pick two years in a row. If only we had it in 2018 instead of 2016 or 2017... Don't get me wrong. Tatum and Brown are terrific young players. Having said that, none of them is Luka.

Imagine Tatum & Luka

Losing the Brooklyn pick was why I was so mad at DA for the IT trade at the time - thought that was our ticket to Luka. I know it ended up being used on Sexton, but I thought we could have had the next superstar

Imagine Tatum & Brown & Luka

Luka (trade up from #8, just like the Mavs did from #5)
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Horford (why would he leave?)

Ugh, it is what it is. At least he ain't playing for the Lakers.

[Fierce1]

How he slipped to 3rd I'll never know.

He's white and he's from Europe.

The Ringer said it the best:

''His game was strong, but we needed proof
we hadn't seen him play Mizzou''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE23ajVX930

We had the #3 pick two years in a row. If only we had it in 2018 instead of 2016 or 2017... Don't get me wrong. Tatum and Brown are terrific young players. Having said that, none of them is Luka.

Imagine Tatum & Luka

Losing the Brooklyn pick was why I was so mad at DA for the IT trade at the time - thought that was our ticket to Luka. I know it ended up being used on Sexton, but I thought we could have had the next superstar

Imagine Tatum & Brown & Luka

Luka
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Horford (why would he leave?)

Ugh, I hate the draft gods. Anyway, it is what it is. At least he ain't playing for the Lakers.

Right now he's not playing for the Lakers.
But who knows in the future when Luka wants to become a movie actor.

[Jvalin]

How he slipped to 3rd I'll never know.

He's white and he's from Europe.

The Ringer said it the best:

''His game was strong, but we needed proof
we hadn't seen him play Mizzou''

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE23ajVX930

We had the #3 pick two years in a row. If only we had it in 2018 instead of 2016 or 2017... Don't get me wrong. Tatum and Brown are terrific young players. Having said that, none of them is Luka.

Imagine Tatum & Luka

Losing the Brooklyn pick was why I was so mad at DA for the IT trade at the time - thought that was our ticket to Luka. I know it ended up being used on Sexton, but I thought we could have had the next superstar

Imagine Tatum & Brown & Luka

Luka
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Horford (why would he leave?)

Ugh, I hate the draft gods. Anyway, it is what it is. At least he ain't playing for the Lakers.

Right now he's not playing for the Lakers.
But who knows in the future when Luka wants to become a movie actor.

I hate you

[Somebody]

To expand on my ranking earlier on, the most portable/scalable skills in basketball are finishing, shooting, defense and passing. These skills scale up the more talented your teammates are simply due to the fact that they aren't dependent on touching the ball to provide value to a team. The best young hybrid forwards in the league, eg. Simmons, Ingram, Tatum, Siakam aren't really good enough to be that high usage perimeter engine in the vein of Jordan/Kobe/Bron/Wade/Kawhi (I'm warming up on Kawhi a LOT this season, his passing is on another level compared to his 2019 championship run) assuming that what Siakam and Ingram are showing this season is merely a hot streak, so how we should rate them as of right now is their efficacy as a second/third option on offense (which can be incredibly valuable, there's only so much value in having a #1 guy on offense, eg. the 2008 Celtics' best player was Kevin Garnett and they still won a title with his #2/#3 qualities lifting his team offense enough to churn out a championship calibre season alongside elite defense, check stats like SRS to see how dominant that squad was).

I'd rank them like this right now:
1. Siakam
2. Ingram
3. Simmons
4. Tatum

Although Ingram's stats are nuts atm, I think he's been unreasonably hot to start the season. His numbers overstate his offense and defense - he still can't drive inside and finish through contact (his preferred move is to pull up for an inefficient midrange shot that's somehow automatic for him so far), and his defensive numbers are pumped up due to the free safety role he gets. I think Siakam's statistical jump is more indicative of his quality (although they're still likely to be inflated a bit) - his passing and shooting have improved, and his defense has slipped a bit (although he's still a good defender), but he still gives you that excellent two way complementary piece that can now be a viable centrepiece. I don't rate Simmons much, his shooting is still god awful and his passing is overrated (the majority of his assists come from post ups and transition plays), but he can still give you a very additive package based on his defensive versatility, finishing and passing (yes it's overrated, but it's by no means bad) that can scale on any team that doesn't have poor spacing. I think Tatum's as good as those guys when it comes to pure "goodness", but I think that his current skillset is between a rock and a hard place - his game is designed to be an offensive centrepiece, but he hasn't developed enough to be a viable high usage engine, and his complementary skills are pretty eh (good outside shooter and plus defender, but is a meh passer and finisher). If Tatum cleans up his passing and finishing as the season progresses I could see him jumping up to #1 in the list, but I don't think I can justify putting him above those forwards right now. Ultimately it's a super small sample size so we'll probably have to wait until the new year before we can start to form any real opinions when it comes to such young players.

[Rikibellevie]

1) By a millions miles Doncic. Wonderfull talent but his relative lack of quickness and athleticism might put his max potential a little lower than some thinks. Like a better scorer Jokic as an hybrid PG/F

2) Tatum because he has still almost all the Tools at this stage and I think he can improove a little bit everywhere with his mentality and work ethic… He must progress into the paint contact, play harder and gain in strength to put his motor a little higher.

3) Siakam just because all the others still have 4 or 5 years to achieve his level. Maybe a Reason of his stronger and mature body motor. He is maybe at his top  physically  unlike the others. But more of a scorer than Sions ever will be for me.

4) Simmons because for me his shoot will limit him especially on a team with few 3 points skills, as he doesn't dominate the basket as Le Bron did at his age

[timpiker]

From what I've seen of Siakam, he's pretty amazing.  Simmons gets little respect from me.  I swear I don't understand why players like Simmons (can't hit the side of a barn) are successful.  Put someone in front of him and take charges all day, please.  Tatum is the most well-rounded and can do everything, so Tatum it is.

[Moranis]

Luka >>> everyone else

Btw, 29 points, 15 assists, 14 rebs tonight @Cleveland. Luka is the real deal.

That's the name I was waiting for someone to mention.

How he slipped to 3rd I'll never know.

He wouldn't meet with the Kings at 2 and I still think you can make an argument Ayton was the better pick (though his suspension certainly makes that harder). 

[Moranis]

To expand on my ranking earlier on, the most portable/scalable skills in basketball are finishing, shooting, defense and passing. These skills scale up the more talented your teammates are simply due to the fact that they aren't dependent on touching the ball to provide value to a team. The best young hybrid forwards in the league, eg. Simmons, Ingram, Tatum, Siakam aren't really good enough to be that high usage perimeter engine in the vein of Jordan/Kobe/Bron/Wade/Kawhi (I'm warming up on Kawhi a LOT this season, his passing is on another level compared to his 2019 championship run) assuming that what Siakam and Ingram are showing this season is merely a hot streak, so how we should rate them as of right now is their efficacy as a second/third option on offense (which can be incredibly valuable, there's only so much value in having a #1 guy on offense, eg. the 2008 Celtics' best player was Kevin Garnett and they still won a title with his #2/#3 qualities lifting his team offense enough to churn out a championship calibre season alongside elite defense, check stats like SRS to see how dominant that squad was).

I'd rank them like this right now:
1. Siakam
2. Ingram
3. Simmons
4. Tatum

Although Ingram's stats are nuts atm, I think he's been unreasonably hot to start the season. His numbers overstate his offense and defense - he still can't drive inside and finish through contact (his preferred move is to pull up for an inefficient midrange shot that's somehow automatic for him so far), and his defensive numbers are pumped up due to the free safety role he gets. I think Siakam's statistical jump is more indicative of his quality (although they're still likely to be inflated a bit) - his passing and shooting have improved, and his defense has slipped a bit (although he's still a good defender), but he still gives you that excellent two way complementary piece that can now be a viable centrepiece. I don't rate Simmons much, his shooting is still god awful and his passing is overrated (the majority of his assists come from post ups and transition plays), but he can still give you a very additive package based on his defensive versatility, finishing and passing (yes it's overrated, but it's by no means bad) that can scale on any team that doesn't have poor spacing. I think Tatum's as good as those guys when it comes to pure "goodness", but I think that his current skillset is between a rock and a hard place - his game is designed to be an offensive centrepiece, but he hasn't developed enough to be a viable high usage engine, and his complementary skills are pretty eh (good outside shooter and plus defender, but is a meh passer and finisher). If Tatum cleans up his passing and finishing as the season progresses I could see him jumping up to #1 in the list, but I don't think I can justify putting him above those forwards right now. Ultimately it's a super small sample size so we'll probably have to wait until the new year before we can start to form any real opinions when it comes to such young players.

Ingram's hot shooting start is from deep not from 2 point range as his 2PT% is basically identical to last year.  His 3PT% is way above the norm, that will obviously come back down at some point.  So I do think he can sustain a lot of what he was doing.  Ingram has always been a fairly efficient scorer and as his touches have gone up he actually hasn't lost much that efficiency.  He is finally getting touches like he is a #1 option and I expect him to continue to score like he is a #1 option. 

I've actually been most impressed by his improvement on the glass and in his passing game.  He has made pretty big strides in both of those areas.  He is also blocking shots at over double his career rate and has the lowest TOV% of his career.  It has been 5 games obviously, but I like what I've seen from Ingram.

[Who]

Of those 3, Simmons is the clear choice given his unique skill set. 

I'm not so sure that Markkanen won't end up better than them all though. 

Then you have Ingram, who has been an absolute monster so far in New Orleans. 

So right now I think based on all I know of those 5, I'd have Simmons, Ingram, Tatum, Markkanen, Siakam.  Wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years the order was all mixed up though.

I regard Markkanen as a center. I got him top 6 talent wise there along with Towns, AD, Embiid, Porzingis and Jokic.

I prefer Markkanen at center because he would be a matchup nightmare there with his quickness and shooting ability. He would completely change the dimensions of the court. Like Steph Curry or Trae Young do at PG. Markkanen would do that as a center. He has enough size and physicality to be decent enough defensively for the huge gains offensively to outweigh any fall-off on D.

I believe the Bulls using him at PF makes him less effective because most teams play either SFs or combo forwards at PF nowadays and those guys are much better able to keep up with & cover Markkanen on the perimeter. Markkanen gets a few post ups where his size is a plus but those few advantageous opportunities are far less than the number of perimeter touches he gets + far less frequent than the number of advantageous opportunities he'd get on the perimeter at center against slower footed big men.

Also, I am annoyed at the Bulls rationing his playing time. Let him play! Bloody hell he is the most talented player on the team. Get on the court for 33-35mpg. Stop playing him 29-30mpg! I hate that stupid coach.

Carter or Markkanen has to play PF.  They are their 2 most important, if not best, players so they both have to play.

I'd like to see them trade Carter for another SF/PF in order to free up Markkanen at the center position.

[PhoSita]

I think you have to say Simmons right now, in a vacuum.  He's the best creator of the three and probably needs the least around him to be productive.  Just give him space to attack.

Maybe it's Siakam, even in a vacuum, if you assume his current level of production will hold up.

On a team with a balanced roster, you have to say Siakam because of his two-way value.


Siakam is by far the oldest and any good faith appraisal of these players has to take that into account.  Siakam did come late to the game of basketball but he's almost certainly closer to his peak than Simmons or Tatum.


Simmons is going to have a hard cap on his potential so long as he is lacking a jumpshot.  On a team with a variety of scoring options I think his value is lessened because in that scenario he's just a huge point guard who can't shoot.


Tatum looks like he could top out as a Paul George caliber player, minus the elite defense.  Is Paul George with solid-not-amazing defense more valuable than Siakam is right now?


Not the way Siakam is playing right now.  Siakam is currently a #1 offensive option with close to 60% TS plus he boards like a big man and can defend almost anybody.


Is Siakam going to continue to score with this kind of efficiency, though?  I would think the league would figure him out a little so long as he's the top scoring option for his team.  Guess we'll see.


Siakam has probably 4-5 years left at his current physical level.  Maybe less, maybe more depending on wear and tear.

Tatum could play the way he plays another 10-12 years if he stays healthy, bulks up a bit, doesn't play too many games or too many minutes.

[Somebody]

To expand on my ranking earlier on, the most portable/scalable skills in basketball are finishing, shooting, defense and passing. These skills scale up the more talented your teammates are simply due to the fact that they aren't dependent on touching the ball to provide value to a team. The best young hybrid forwards in the league, eg. Simmons, Ingram, Tatum, Siakam aren't really good enough to be that high usage perimeter engine in the vein of Jordan/Kobe/Bron/Wade/Kawhi (I'm warming up on Kawhi a LOT this season, his passing is on another level compared to his 2019 championship run) assuming that what Siakam and Ingram are showing this season is merely a hot streak, so how we should rate them as of right now is their efficacy as a second/third option on offense (which can be incredibly valuable, there's only so much value in having a #1 guy on offense, eg. the 2008 Celtics' best player was Kevin Garnett and they still won a title with his #2/#3 qualities lifting his team offense enough to churn out a championship calibre season alongside elite defense, check stats like SRS to see how dominant that squad was).

I'd rank them like this right now:
1. Siakam
2. Ingram
3. Simmons
4. Tatum

Although Ingram's stats are nuts atm, I think he's been unreasonably hot to start the season. His numbers overstate his offense and defense - he still can't drive inside and finish through contact (his preferred move is to pull up for an inefficient midrange shot that's somehow automatic for him so far), and his defensive numbers are pumped up due to the free safety role he gets. I think Siakam's statistical jump is more indicative of his quality (although they're still likely to be inflated a bit) - his passing and shooting have improved, and his defense has slipped a bit (although he's still a good defender), but he still gives you that excellent two way complementary piece that can now be a viable centrepiece. I don't rate Simmons much, his shooting is still god awful and his passing is overrated (the majority of his assists come from post ups and transition plays), but he can still give you a very additive package based on his defensive versatility, finishing and passing (yes it's overrated, but it's by no means bad) that can scale on any team that doesn't have poor spacing. I think Tatum's as good as those guys when it comes to pure "goodness", but I think that his current skillset is between a rock and a hard place - his game is designed to be an offensive centrepiece, but he hasn't developed enough to be a viable high usage engine, and his complementary skills are pretty eh (good outside shooter and plus defender, but is a meh passer and finisher). If Tatum cleans up his passing and finishing as the season progresses I could see him jumping up to #1 in the list, but I don't think I can justify putting him above those forwards right now. Ultimately it's a super small sample size so we'll probably have to wait until the new year before we can start to form any real opinions when it comes to such young players.

Ingram's hot shooting start is from deep not from 2 point range as his 2PT% is basically identical to last year.  His 3PT% is way above the norm, that will obviously come back down at some point.  So I do think he can sustain a lot of what he was doing.  Ingram has always been a fairly efficient scorer and as his touches have gone up he actually hasn't lost much that efficiency.  He is finally getting touches like he is a #1 option and I expect him to continue to score like he is a #1 option. 

I've actually been most impressed by his improvement on the glass and in his passing game.  He has made pretty big strides in both of those areas.  He is also blocking shots at over double his career rate and has the lowest TOV% of his career.  It has been 5 games obviously, but I like what I've seen from Ingram.

Oh I meant his FG% in general-his 3 point shooting has jumped and I expect him to maintain a good percentage there, but a good amount of his twos when he has to create his own offense are pullup twos due to his lack of explosiveness and strength, and he's hitting a pretty obscene percentage of them rn on high volume (he had Bron feeding him last year for more high percentage looks, it's different from hitting a bunch of pullup midrange jumpshots). I don't see him as a #1 scorer until he can consistently drive to the basket and score there-almost every great perimeter engine can force the issue with their driving. Imo Ingram is a perfect #2/#3 rn, his complementary attributes (passing, defense, shooting, and to an extent finishing if he's near the basket) are very good.

[coco]

Luka is better than all of those.

[gouki88]

Luka is even more a guard than Simmons is - not sure he's in the discussion. Would be like bringing Harden into a discussion about Kawhi, Giannis, LeBron & KD