Author Topic: #DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)  (Read 600477 times)

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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2055 on: August 04, 2015, 04:40:30 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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This should be fascinating.

From PFT:

Quote
Judge Berman orders NFL-NFLPA to not file documents under seal

Posted by Mike Florio on August 4, 2015, 4:04 PM EDT

AP
Full transparency is coming to the Tom Brady appeal process.

Judge Richard M. Berman, who strongly hinted on Friday that he won’t be inclined to allow the NFL and NFLPA to keep the transcript of the 10-hour Tom Brady appeal hearing secret, has ordered the parties to not submit materials under seal, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.

It means that the transcript of the Brady appeal hearing will soon be made public.

The NFLPA previously attached the transcript as an exhibit to the filing made under seal in federal court in Minnesota. With that case transferred back to New York, the union soon will be re-filing its initial submission, with the transcript as an exhibit.

And the transcript at that point will be a matter of public record. Which means that it’ll be time to brew some coffee and put on the cheaters, because anyone paid to comment on this case will be compelled to read every word of every page of the transcript.


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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2056 on: August 04, 2015, 04:41:46 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Ideal Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

  The ideal gas law is a *possible* explanation for the difference, hence the inconclusiveness of the data. You'd also see consistent signs of it. The first balls that were measured would tend to have the lowest psi, the last pats balls to be measured would be close to being in range. You'd also likely see more of a spread between the first pats balls measured and the last than you would between the last pats balls and the colts balls as the increase in temperature would slow as they approached equilibrium. I don't think that's the case.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2057 on: August 04, 2015, 04:46:06 PM »

Offline Rondo2287

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Ideal Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

  The ideal gas law is a *possible* explanation for the difference, hence the inconclusiveness of the data. You'd also see consistent signs of it. The first balls that were measured would tend to have the lowest psi, the last pats balls to be measured would be close to being in range. You'd also likely see more of a spread between the first pats balls measured and the last than you would between the last pats balls and the colts balls as the increase in temperature would slow as they approached equilibrium. I don't think that's the case.

Read the AEI report.  They spelled it all out pretty conclusively while [dang]ing the analysis in the wells report by exponent. 
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Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2058 on: August 04, 2015, 04:48:20 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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This should be fascinating.

From PFT:

Quote
Judge Berman orders NFL-NFLPA to not file documents under seal

Posted by Mike Florio on August 4, 2015, 4:04 PM EDT

AP
Full transparency is coming to the Tom Brady appeal process.

Judge Richard M. Berman, who strongly hinted on Friday that he won’t be inclined to allow the NFL and NFLPA to keep the transcript of the 10-hour Tom Brady appeal hearing secret, has ordered the parties to not submit materials under seal, according to a source with knowledge of the situation.

It means that the transcript of the Brady appeal hearing will soon be made public.

The NFLPA previously attached the transcript as an exhibit to the filing made under seal in federal court in Minnesota. With that case transferred back to New York, the union soon will be re-filing its initial submission, with the transcript as an exhibit.

And the transcript at that point will be a matter of public record. Which means that it’ll be time to brew some coffee and put on the cheaters, because anyone paid to comment on this case will be compelled to read every word of every page of the transcript.



This is actually awesome, though. At least, I am going to enjoy the heck out of it.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2059 on: August 04, 2015, 05:00:07 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

Yup.  There certainly can be a scientific explanation for it & this was also addressed in the Wells Report.   Up to 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes.

  For the record, I'm not oblivious to the ideal gas law, and I didn't need a refresher course in it when this story came out. I'm saying that they didn't take enough measurements to measure the effect of it they didn't take all of the measurements they'd want to, and the measuring they did wasn't accurate enough, they didn't even know (apparently) which gauge they used for some of the measurements. On top of that, they don't know how well the balls held their air pressure. Did I miss anything?

  The only things you can prove or disprove based on that are things that are so far from what was measured that the accumulation of all of the errors aren't great enough to affect them.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2060 on: August 04, 2015, 05:08:24 PM »

Offline cometboy

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

Yup.  There certainly can be a scientific explanation for it & this was also addressed in the Wells Report.   Up to 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes.

  For the record, I'm not oblivious to the ideal gas law, and I didn't need a refresher course in it when this story came out. I'm saying that they didn't take enough measurements to measure the effect of it they didn't take all of the measurements they'd want to, and the measuring they did wasn't accurate enough, they didn't even know (apparently) which gauge they used for some of the measurements. On top of that, they don't know how well the balls held their air pressure. Did I miss anything?

  The only things you can prove or disprove based on that are things that are so far from what was measured that the accumulation of all of the errors aren't great enough to affect them.

1st para sounds like an excellent endorsement for why there should have been absolutely NO punishment, and a promise to tighten up the process for next year (i.e., next BB rule).

CB

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2061 on: August 04, 2015, 05:09:53 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Ideal Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

  The ideal gas law is a *possible* explanation for the difference, hence the inconclusiveness of the data. You'd also see consistent signs of it. The first balls that were measured would tend to have the lowest psi, the last pats balls to be measured would be close to being in range. You'd also likely see more of a spread between the first pats balls measured and the last than you would between the last pats balls and the colts balls as the increase in temperature would slow as they approached equilibrium. I don't think that's the case.

Read the AEI report.  They spelled it all out pretty conclusively while [dang]ing the analysis in the wells report by exponent.

If you are interested in the science, you should read Steve McIntyre's writing on the subject. 

He thinks it's more likely the logo gauge was used and the balls were not tampered with.  He also shreds Exponent's report.

"Remarkably, for Non-Logo initialization, the only manual deflation that is not precluded are amounts equal (within uncertainty) to the inter-gauge bias of ~0.38 psi. Precisely why Patriots would have deflated balls by an amount almost exactly equal to the bias between referee Anderson’s gauges is a bizarre coincidence, to say the least. I think that one can safely say that it is “more probable than not” that referee Anderson used the Logo gauge than that such an implausible coincidence."

http://climateaudit.org/2015/06/29/exponents-transients-bodge-or-botch/

http://www.climateaudit.info/data/football/mcintyre_analysis_of_wells_report.pdf





Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2062 on: August 04, 2015, 05:13:51 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Ideal Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

  The ideal gas law is a *possible* explanation for the difference, hence the inconclusiveness of the data. You'd also see consistent signs of it. The first balls that were measured would tend to have the lowest psi, the last pats balls to be measured would be close to being in range. You'd also likely see more of a spread between the first pats balls measured and the last than you would between the last pats balls and the colts balls as the increase in temperature would slow as they approached equilibrium. I don't think that's the case.

Read the AEI report.  They spelled it all out pretty conclusively while [dang]ing the analysis in the wells report by exponent.

  Did you read it? I'm not going to plow through the whole thing, but I found things like the following in the summary:

"When correct tests are performed, the evidence points to a conclusion that is inconsistent with the Wells findings. Our evidence suggests a specific sequence of events. The Wells report conclusions are likely incorrect, and a simple misunderstanding appears to have led the NFL to these incorrect conclusions."

  Note it says the Wells report is LIKELY incorrect.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2063 on: August 04, 2015, 05:15:48 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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  Note it says the Wells report is LIKELY incorrect.
You mean, like, more probably than not?  ;D
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2064 on: August 04, 2015, 05:17:11 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

Yup.  There certainly can be a scientific explanation for it & this was also addressed in the Wells Report.   Up to 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes.

  For the record, I'm not oblivious to the ideal gas law, and I didn't need a refresher course in it when this story came out. I'm saying that they didn't take enough measurements to measure the effect of it they didn't take all of the measurements they'd want to, and the measuring they did wasn't accurate enough, they didn't even know (apparently) which gauge they used for some of the measurements. On top of that, they don't know how well the balls held their air pressure. Did I miss anything?

  The only things you can prove or disprove based on that are things that are so far from what was measured that the accumulation of all of the errors aren't great enough to affect them.

1st para sounds like an excellent endorsement for why there should have been absolutely NO punishment, and a promise to tighten up the process for next year (i.e., next BB rule).

CB

  I think that all of the texts that we've heard about were more of an issue for the pats than the measurements were.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2065 on: August 04, 2015, 05:18:31 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  Note it says the Wells report is LIKELY incorrect.
You mean, like, more probably than not?  ;D

  Sure, more probably than not, which probably isn't enough to preclude the investigation which followed.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2066 on: August 04, 2015, 05:22:59 PM »

Offline cometboy

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

Yup.  There certainly can be a scientific explanation for it & this was also addressed in the Wells Report.   Up to 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes.

  For the record, I'm not oblivious to the ideal gas law, and I didn't need a refresher course in it when this story came out. I'm saying that they didn't take enough measurements to measure the effect of it they didn't take all of the measurements they'd want to, and the measuring they did wasn't accurate enough, they didn't even know (apparently) which gauge they used for some of the measurements. On top of that, they don't know how well the balls held their air pressure. Did I miss anything?

  The only things you can prove or disprove based on that are things that are so far from what was measured that the accumulation of all of the errors aren't great enough to affect them.

1st para sounds like an excellent endorsement for why there should have been absolutely NO punishment, and a promise to tighten up the process for next year (i.e., next BB rule).

CB

  I think that all of the texts that we've heard about were more of an issue for the pats than the measurements were.

yes, but without a "crime", the texts are meaningless

CB

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2067 on: August 04, 2015, 05:24:45 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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  Note it says the Wells report is LIKELY incorrect.
You mean, like, more probably than not?  ;D

  Sure, more probably than not, which probably isn't enough to preclude the investigation which followed.
The investigation  didn't "follow" -- this is the product of said investigation. However, the (obvious) level of uncertainly should have been enough to preclude the way the whole affair was handled, as a minimum.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2068 on: August 04, 2015, 05:32:07 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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"the margin of error in the measurements will be larger than what they're trying to measure".

Clearly that was going to be the case, and obviously that's what happened.

You don't think that's a pretty serious problem when the NFL seeks to hand down one of the most severe punishments in the history of the league (picks + fines + suspension) for a violation it doesn't have the ability to prove even happened?

  The pats were accused  of doctoring the air pressure in their footballs by another team, and the (poorly done) pressure measurements seem to at least somewhat support the claim. Further investigation (which was probably warranted) uncovered some fairly incriminating texts.

  But the punishments do seem to be exceptionally severe for the infraction.

This is wrong

  It's obviously not wrong. If they'd measured the balls at halftime and the pats PSIs were within the allowable limits then it would have been unlikely that anything untoward happened. Measuring the balls and finding many of the pats balls below the allowable limit and none of the colts balls below the limit clearly seems to somewhat support the claim.

Ummm....except for the part in the Wells Report that showed 3 out the 4 balls from the Colts measured were under the minimum according to one gauge at halftime.

  I stand corrected. One of the colts balls was within range on both measurements, the other three were within range on one measurement. None of the pats balls were within range on either measurement. One of the 8 colts measurements was lower than the highest measurement of a pats ball, and 21 of the 22 measurements of the pats balls were lower than the lowest measurement for the colts balls. So that correction still doesn't really exonerate the pats.

Unless, the colts balls started at 13 psi instead of 12.5 as was WIDELY reported including by Walt Anderson in the wells report

  Do the math, the difference in the average between the pats and colts balls at halftime is probably well over that .5 psi starting difference.


The reasons for that has already been explained by Gas Law which indicated by the nature of them being measured after the Patriot's ones [and whatever time passed between them] was a factor for the increased PSI.

Yup.  There certainly can be a scientific explanation for it & this was also addressed in the Wells Report.   Up to 0.7 PSI in 13 minutes.

  For the record, I'm not oblivious to the ideal gas law, and I didn't need a refresher course in it when this story came out. I'm saying that they didn't take enough measurements to measure the effect of it they didn't take all of the measurements they'd want to, and the measuring they did wasn't accurate enough, they didn't even know (apparently) which gauge they used for some of the measurements. On top of that, they don't know how well the balls held their air pressure. Did I miss anything?

  The only things you can prove or disprove based on that are things that are so far from what was measured that the accumulation of all of the errors aren't great enough to affect them.

You wrote this a few days ago, "I don't think the ideal gas law says you'd lose that amount of air."  That was in response to my pointing out the IGL accounts for a 1.01 psi drop.  I don't mean to be a jerk by digging up older comments, but I think that is proof that you formed your opinion before knowing the basic facts as the IGL states the balls would lose that amount and even slightly more depending on the temperature of the room Anderson tested the balls in before the game.

Re: #DeflateGate
« Reply #2069 on: August 04, 2015, 05:36:40 PM »

Offline knuckleballer

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  Note it says the Wells report is LIKELY incorrect.
You mean, like, more probably than not?  ;D

  Sure, more probably than not, which probably isn't enough to preclude the investigation which followed.
The investigation  didn't "follow" -- this is the product of said investigation. However, the (obvious) level of uncertainly should have been enough to preclude the way the whole affair was handled, as a minimum.

I've said this before, but I don't think it can be said enough.  According the the gauge the ref said he used, the balls should have dropped around 1.1.  The average Patriots ball dropped by 1.01 per that gauge.  There was no reason for suspicion or an investigation.  The suspicion and investigation was based on lies by the NFL that the balls were 2 psi below regulation, not the expected 1 psi.  Everything since has been circumstantial.