No Worries From Ainge (Herald Article)

[Truth Hurts]

A 6th man would have to be a big or a wing. Rondo will play 36 minutes a game next year. A back-up point won't get enough burn to be considered a 6th man unless House or Pruitt really step up and play both guard spots.

A quality 4/5 could get some good minutes relieving KG and Perk. But I think Danny wants to develop Baby and Powe, and sign a legit backup center to replace PJ.

Hey, how about James Posey? he would be a PERFECT fit here!

[cordobes]

Do we really need the MLE to sign a backup center and Eddie House? I really don't think we do.

Some of you are proposing that we replace Posey with the pu-pu platter of role players.....but it doesn't work like that. Good teams stick primarily to an 8 man rotation, with some occasional spot time for weaker players.

In theory, we could sign three guys that could play 8 minutes each, and each give us some of the things that BGJ does. Then, in the playoffs....those guys would get exposed for what they are.

This is my position as well.  The sum of a few player's talent in the NBA can never equal those talents in a single player.  The restriction comes in because you are only allowed to play five guys at once.  Three examples/anecdotes to support this point:  First, if we sign Matt Barnes (a 3/4 defender), a three point shooter, and a Ross to be a wing defender for the same money as Posey, that is a huge mistake.  When we bring in Barnes, for example, to play the defensive role, we lose the three point shooting on the other end of the same court.  In other words, were it Posey, instead, filling that role, we would still have the three point shooter AND the defender.  You might say, "well, bring in the three point shooter also."  OK, but that player displaces somebody else with skills who was on the Court. 

Second discussion point: take Cleveland for example.  I strongly believe that one of the reasons we beat them (besides pp) is that many of their players not named LaBron are role players.  Take their front line of Ilgauskis, Wallace, Sideshow Bob, and Joe Smith.  Ilgauskis and Joe Smith help offensively but hurt defensively.  Sideshow Bob and Wallace the opposite.  From my point of view, I watched the Celtics pick apart these guys respective weaknesses because the Celtics on the Court were, in general, better rounded players with superior skill sets in many areas, while not being deficient in those skills where they were weaker.  This is the way NBA playoff basketball is moving in my opinion - towards well-rounded players in general who may or may not have specific skills where they excel.  Just like Rondo's offensive weakness was a constant target for exploitation, so too would Matt Barnes.  Posey, not so much.

Third discussion point: The extreme example.  If you could combine (for example) Korver's shooting, Iggy's slashing, and Cassell's short man, post-up game.  That would be one hell of an offensive player.  Probably top 10 in the NBA.  However, if you play these same players as a starting unit, you have a perennial-cellar dweller.

Exactly. We have a good example in the Finals as well. Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza are a good SF rotation. Rad is a great shooter, Walton a great play-maker and  Ariza a great defender. But they don't do anything else and I bet Phil Jackson would rather dump 2 of them for a player like Posey.

I remember saying before the Finals that the Lakers bench was apparently better but in the end we would win the bench battle because Posey was the best all-around player and the most versatile one and we wouldn't be playing bench vs bench 5on5 games.

[bucknersrevenge]

  so why cant we have a committee of guys to fill out a roster and each of them play a role in the success of this team?...or did we not do that last year?

No, we didn't do that last year.

Davis, Powe, Cassell, House, TAllen were buried for most of the post-season. When the matchups dictated so, they got some burn. House and Powe played well in certain matchups. But don't kid yourself. For 95% of the post-season, we had a 7 man rotation playing most of the minutes.

PP
KG
Ray
Rondo
Perk
Posey
PJ

Let's say the two-headed monster of House/Cassell at the back-up point was the 8th man.

  Last year Posey was so important because we had so many weak spots on the bench. What happened isn't the only scenario that can lead to a championship. A lot of the people who are pushing for Posey at any cost are fixated on the backup sf spot as the be all and end all of a team's bench. Last year we won the title with a great backup sf and garbage (or, if you prefer, a couple of pupu platters) for our backup center/pf and pg. What if we had a pupu platter at backup sf and a good backup center? What about a good backup pg? What about a decent backup sf (worse than Posey), but a better big than PJ and a better pg than House or Cassell? Won't those scenarios work?

It wouldn't work as well as Posey, because Posey plays three positions. He is a unique player.

you dont need posey to play 3 positions. posey doesnt even play 3 positions well. he doesnt guard 2s or 4s all that well to be honest

Of course not. In the last 3 years he just guarded the league MVPs (a 4 and a 2) in clinching games in the NBA Finals. I'm sure the #30 pick of the draft and Brian Scalabrine are able to do a similar job.

I think the problem here is "that well compared to who?". I mean you have  free-agents and the MLE to spend, it's not like we can replace Posey by another player we like more.

actually i was thinking kg paul pierce and giddens(in small spurts) could do a similar job.

[BCelts]

Exactly. We have a good example in the Finals as well. Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza are a good SF rotation. Rad is a great shooter, Walton a great play-maker and  Ariza a great defender. But they don't do anything else and I bet Phil Jackson would rather dump 2 of them for a player like Posey.

I remember saying before the Finals that the Lakers bench was apparently better but in the end we would win the bench battle because Posey was the best all-around player and the most versatile one and we wouldn't be playing bench vs bench 5on5 games.

Well, we agree, but I'll go one further.  I'd bet that Jackson would willing dump all three (Spaceman, Jr., and Ariza) for Posey and sign a minimum guy (like, say, Matt Barnes) to fill the rest of the time.  This discussion all comes down to PT.  There are 240 minutes available per game.  Thats six 40 minute increments.  Assume for simplicity's sake the playoff starters play 40 minutes (not always true, I know, but bear with me, it does not change the argument).  If you have a strong 6th man who is a combo guy (can play two positions, be it the 1/2, the 2/3, the 3/4, or the 4/5) AND you have players like Garnett and Pierce who are starters who can play multiple positions, depending on match-ups, your 6th man can play the majority of the bench minutes (my guess is about 22, or what Posey average in the playoffs).  Of those 40 "bench" minutes, would you rather have Posey taking 22 and whatever rookies/min-level guys you have taking 18 (Powe, BBD, and House), or would you rather have Barnes, Ross, and the corpse of Anthony Johnson taking, say 36 of those minutes?

I go with the former.  Barnes, Ross, and Johnson are not significant upgrades over Powe, BBD, and House if they are even upgrades at all (Barnes looked great two years ago, last year, not so much).  Posey is the most useful player in that scenerio, playing the most minutes.

[bucknersrevenge]

Do we really need the MLE to sign a backup center and Eddie House? I really don't think we do.

Some of you are proposing that we replace Posey with the pu-pu platter of role players.....but it doesn't work like that. Good teams stick primarily to an 8 man rotation, with some occasional spot time for weaker players.

In theory, we could sign three guys that could play 8 minutes each, and each give us some of the things that BGJ does. Then, in the playoffs....those guys would get exposed for what they are.

This is my position as well.  The sum of a few player's talent in the NBA can never equal those talents in a single player.  The restriction comes in because you are only allowed to play five guys at once.  Three examples/anecdotes to support this point:  First, if we sign Matt Barnes (a 3/4 defender), a three point shooter, and a Ross to be a wing defender for the same money as Posey, that is a huge mistake.  When we bring in Barnes, for example, to play the defensive role, we lose the three point shooting on the other end of the same court.  In other words, were it Posey, instead, filling that role, we would still have the three point shooter AND the defender.  You might say, "well, bring in the three point shooter also."  OK, but that player displaces somebody else with skills who was on the Court. 

Second discussion point: take Cleveland for example.  I strongly believe that one of the reasons we beat them (besides pp) is that many of their players not named LaBron are role players.  Take their front line of Ilgauskis, Wallace, Sideshow Bob, and Joe Smith.  Ilgauskis and Joe Smith help offensively but hurt defensively.  Sideshow Bob and Wallace the opposite.  From my point of view, I watched the Celtics pick apart these guys respective weaknesses because the Celtics on the Court were, in general, better rounded players with superior skill sets in many areas, while not being deficient in those skills where they were weaker.  This is the way NBA playoff basketball is moving in my opinion - towards well-rounded players in general who may or may not have specific skills where they excel.  Just like Rondo's offensive weakness was a constant target for exploitation, so too would Matt Barnes.  Posey, not so much.

Third discussion point: The extreme example.  If you could combine (for example) Korver's shooting, Iggy's slashing, and Cassell's short man, post-up game.  That would be one hell of an offensive player.  Probably top 10 in the NBA.  However, if you play these same players as a starting unit, you have a perennial-cellar dweller.

Exactly. We have a good example in the Finals as well. Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza are a good SF rotation. Rad is a great shooter, Walton a great play-maker and  Ariza a great defender. But they don't do anything else and I bet Phil Jackson would rather dump 2 of them for a player like Posey.

I remember saying before the Finals that the Lakers bench was apparently better but in the end we would win the bench battle because Posey was the best all-around player and the most versatile one and we wouldn't be playing bench vs bench 5on5 games.

i disagree. i thought they were a horrid sf rotation because they could barely spell defense let alone play it. ariza is not a great defender by any stretch when 100% healthy which he wasnt for the finals. its not about having random piecemeal parts its about having the right components while still emphasizing defense in your pickups. nobody here is suggesting we dump posey for a slow footed playmaker or spot up shooter. were suggesting you replace posey with a wing defender that wont take up the entire mle and pair him with a young wing that while a rookie has a defensive pedigree and combine that with an athletic big man that can play defense and a pg that can play defense. btw the other reason that rotation was terrible was because they could see pauls jock on the court. franchise talent wins out.

[bucknersrevenge]

Exactly. We have a good example in the Finals as well. Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza are a good SF rotation. Rad is a great shooter, Walton a great play-maker and  Ariza a great defender. But they don't do anything else and I bet Phil Jackson would rather dump 2 of them for a player like Posey.

I remember saying before the Finals that the Lakers bench was apparently better but in the end we would win the bench battle because Posey was the best all-around player and the most versatile one and we wouldn't be playing bench vs bench 5on5 games.

Well, we agree, but I'll go one further.  I'd bet that Jackson would willing dump all three (Spaceman, Jr., and Ariza) for Posey and sign a minimum guy (like, say, Matt Barnes) to fill the rest of the time.  This discussion all comes down to PT.  There are 240 minutes available per game.  Thats six 40 minute increments.  Assume for simplicity's sake the playoff starters play 40 minutes (not always true, I know, but bear with me, it does not change the argument).  If you have a strong 6th man who is a combo guy (can play two positions, be it the 1/2, the 2/3, the 3/4, or the 4/5) AND you have players like Garnett and Pierce who are starters who can play multiple positions, depending on match-ups, your 6th man can play the majority of the bench minutes (my guess is about 22, or what Posey average in the playoffs).  Of those 40 "bench" minutes, would you rather have Posey taking 22 and whatever rookies/min-level guys you have taking 18 (Powe, BBD, and House), or would you rather have Barnes, Ross, and the corpse of Anthony Johnson taking, say 36 of those minutes?

I go with the former.  Barnes, Ross, and Johnson are not significant upgrades over Powe, BBD, and House if they are even upgrades at all (Barnes looked great two years ago, last year, not so much).  Posey is the most useful player in that scenerio, playing the most minutes.

poseys not gonna get 25 mpg again off the bench. maybe 17 at best. only reason posey got over 20 is because when perk got in trouble we had NOTHING behind him. guarantee danny rectifies that before training camp. whether you believe in giddens or not he will play spot minutes. were gonna pay 6mil a year for 15min of defense at the 3.

[BCelts]

... btw the other reason that rotation was terrible was because they could see pauls jock on the court. franchise talent wins out.

You are absolutly right it is all about superior talent and they way that talent fits with your other talents.  I just see Posey as the most talented guy left on the free agent market, and don't think that three-headed monsters ever work as well as one good player.  Their weaknesses are too easily exposed.

[bucknersrevenge]

... btw the other reason that rotation was terrible was because they could see pauls jock on the court. franchise talent wins out.

You are absolutly right it is all about superior talent and they way that talent fits with your other talents.  I just see Posey as the most talented guy left on the free agent market, and don't think that three-headed monsters ever work as well as one good player.  Their weaknesses are too easily exposed.

the difference is were talking about 10-15mpg and thats it. ill take my chances. i dont need posey for 15mpg at 6mil. its not cost effective..

[cordobes]

Exactly. We have a good example in the Finals as well. Radmanovic, Walton and Ariza are a good SF rotation. Rad is a great shooter, Walton a great play-maker and  Ariza a great defender. But they don't do anything else and I bet Phil Jackson would rather dump 2 of them for a player like Posey.

I remember saying before the Finals that the Lakers bench was apparently better but in the end we would win the bench battle because Posey was the best all-around player and the most versatile one and we wouldn't be playing bench vs bench 5on5 games.

Well, we agree, but I'll go one further.  I'd bet that Jackson would willing dump all three (Spaceman, Jr., and Ariza) for Posey and sign a minimum guy (like, say, Matt Barnes) to fill the rest of the time.  This discussion all comes down to PT.  There are 240 minutes available per game.  Thats six 40 minute increments.  Assume for simplicity's sake the playoff starters play 40 minutes (not always true, I know, but bear with me, it does not change the argument).  If you have a strong 6th man who is a combo guy (can play two positions, be it the 1/2, the 2/3, the 3/4, or the 4/5) AND you have players like Garnett and Pierce who are starters who can play multiple positions, depending on match-ups, your 6th man can play the majority of the bench minutes (my guess is about 22, or what Posey average in the playoffs).  Of those 40 "bench" minutes, would you rather have Posey taking 22 and whatever rookies/min-level guys you have taking 18 (Powe, BBD, and House), or would you rather have Barnes, Ross, and the corpse of Anthony Johnson taking, say 36 of those minutes?

I go with the former.  Barnes, Ross, and Johnson are not significant upgrades over Powe, BBD, and House if they are even upgrades at all (Barnes looked great two years ago, last year, not so much).  Posey is the most useful player in that scenerio, playing the most minutes.

poseys not gonna get 25 mpg again off the bench. maybe 17 at best. only reason posey got over 20 is because when perk got in trouble we had NOTHING behind him. guarantee danny rectifies that before training camp. whether you believe in giddens or not he will play spot minutes. were gonna pay 6mil a year for 15min of defense at the 3

As a coach, and considering our starters (if I was Doc), I'd rather have a bench of House, Posey, BBD/Powe over a bench of Johnson/Ross/Barnes and it's not even close. Are you aware that neither Ross nor Barnes can shoot the 3 therefore they can't provide spacing? It's a matter of flexibility. Ross is a better perimeter defender than Posey, but playing along Rondo he would cripple our offense. Barnes can guard small 4s or big SFs, but he's basically Posey without the range and the ability to guard smaller wingers. I mean, as a sum, they are probably better, but you can't play the "sum". It's not only a matter of minutes.

Oh, and how would you sign Ross, Barnes and Johnson with the MLE? Barnes alone will get the full-MLE or very close somewhere.

[Bankshot]

... btw the other reason that rotation was terrible was because they could see pauls jock on the court. franchise talent wins out.

You are absolutly right it is all about superior talent and they way that talent fits with your other talents.  I just see Posey as the most talented guy left on the free agent market, and don't think that three-headed monsters ever work as well as one good player.  Their weaknesses are too easily exposed.

the difference is were talking about 10-15mpg and thats it. ill take my chances. i dont need posey for 15mpg at 6mil. its not cost effective..

Of course you don't need him for 10-15 mpg, the Celtics need him for about 20 mpg and you aren't paying him, the Celtics are and they should.

[bucknersrevenge]

... btw the other reason that rotation was terrible was because they could see pauls jock on the court. franchise talent wins out.

You are absolutly right it is all about superior talent and they way that talent fits with your other talents.  I just see Posey as the most talented guy left on the free agent market, and don't think that three-headed monsters ever work as well as one good player.  Their weaknesses are too easily exposed.

the difference is were talking about 10-15mpg and thats it. ill take my chances. i dont need posey for 15mpg at 6mil. its not cost effective..

Of course you don't need him for 10-15 mpg, the Celtics need him for about 20 mpg and you aren't paying him, the Celtics are and they should.

they need him for about 15 really. but i doubt the celtics pay him 6mil for that and they shouldnt.

[Truth Hurts]

Posey averaged 24 mpg, 22 in the playoffs.

Not sure why he would potentially play less with Ray and Paul each a year older. If anything, they need to cut down Ray's minutes.

[bucknersrevenge]

Posey averaged 24 mpg, 22 in the playoffs.

Not sure why he would potentially play less with Ray and Paul each a year older. If anything, they need to cut down Ray's minutes.

posey played a lot of min at the 4 when perk would go out. assuming danny picks up a viable backup center which i expect he will, combine that with powe and davis being a year older and better you wont see posey at the 4 much anymore and you shouldnt. i got the feeling all year doc did that because he had to not cuz he wanted to. even if we bring posey back you still have giddens who will get minutes with this team. they may cut ray and pauls minutes back but not by that much. besides rays built like a tank and he hasnt taken that much contact throughout his career. theres more wear on paul than there is on ray. hes not gonna see the same minutes he saw last year.

[BballTim]

  so why cant we have a committee of guys to fill out a roster and each of them play a role in the success of this team?...or did we not do that last year?

No, we didn't do that last year.

Davis, Powe, Cassell, House, TAllen were buried for most of the post-season. When the matchups dictated so, they got some burn. House and Powe played well in certain matchups. But don't kid yourself. For 95% of the post-season, we had a 7 man rotation playing most of the minutes.

PP
KG
Ray
Rondo
Perk
Posey
PJ

Let's say the two-headed monster of House/Cassell at the back-up point was the 8th man.

  Last year Posey was so important because we had so many weak spots on the bench. What happened isn't the only scenario that can lead to a championship. A lot of the people who are pushing for Posey at any cost are fixated on the backup sf spot as the be all and end all of a team's bench. Last year we won the title with a great backup sf and garbage (or, if you prefer, a couple of pupu platters) for our backup center/pf and pg. What if we had a pupu platter at backup sf and a good backup center? What about a good backup pg? What about a decent backup sf (worse than Posey), but a better big than PJ and a better pg than House or Cassell? Won't those scenarios work?

Maybe. But who's a better backup pg than House or Cassell or a better big than PJ? There are lots of guys, I understand; but who can we sign in the FA market splitting the MLE for those 3 guys?

  I don't know enough about what salaries all of the FAs are looking for to answer that. But IMO the play we got at pg and c was at times decent but generally poor, so I don't see upgrading those spots as an insurmountable task.

Okay, don't care about the salaries then. Just give me names. Anthony Johnson as an upgrade over Cassell, maybe? Elson as an upgrade over PJ Brown?

  I just saw about a 10 page discussion about how well Corey Maggette would fair offensively on the Celtics. I think your opinion was something like "he'd probably do worse but I don't know for sure". Not that I'm criticizing, I pretty much agree with that, but I'm not going to start similar discussions about 2-3 other players. My opinion is that the backup pg and c play we got in the playoffs was very inconsistent and it would be easy to upgrade, especially considering that 2 of the players were close to AARP membership. If you think we can't do better than Cassell or PJ or House then I'm not going to get into a drawn out hypothetical argument about it.

  And, honestly, I mean no offense, but I've been around here long enough to know I could name Shaq as my backup center (if he was available) and someone here would state with absolute certainty that PJ was a better fit for our system.

[BCelts]

... btw the other reason that rotation was terrible was because they could see pauls jock on the court. franchise talent wins out.

You are absolutly right it is all about superior talent and they way that talent fits with your other talents.  I just see Posey as the most talented guy left on the free agent market, and don't think that three-headed monsters ever work as well as one good player.  Their weaknesses are too easily exposed.

the difference is were talking about 10-15mpg and thats it. ill take my chances. i dont need posey for 15mpg at 6mil. its not cost effective..

You don't think the Celtics will spend the whole mid-level next year anyway?